Why Atheism? Very quick overview.
My response, in terms of atheism, got a bit wordy, so here's my rationale -- In answer to @deaconlee here, This is a very very brief overview. There's much more to it, but in a nutshell...
God of the Bible
Please don't be sorry about my atheism. It's a condition I'm happy to inhabit right now. I didn't really give up on this god. It was never really a starter for me. I wasn't much of a believer and I still don't believe in anything. Beliefs tend to stop me from thinking. I don't like not thinking.
My mother was Christian, took us to Sunday School, church. I was forced to join The Brownies (a club for Christian kids) against my will. I was brainwashed and indoctrinated to a certain extent but the belief was never fully formed. I tried – really tried – because everyone else seemed to think it was the way and I was scared...
I was scared, as a kid, that I would go to hell for not believing it in my heart. I would be tortured for all eternity! Those years were confusing and frightening for me and I remember thinking that it was a bully tactic that god was using to make people love him. I don't like bullies.
The bible never provided me any answers. I read lumps of it as a child (you know, the bits they encourage you to read), then completely as an adult. I also read lots of other books (not just about gods).
As a kid, I found many of the stories too incredible to be plausible. As an adult, I just shake my head at the audacity.
I still don't know for sure What are We, Where we came from, Why we are here, or What happens after we die. These questions are still very much up in the air. And I'm okay with that.
These are the speculations of primitive people doing their best to understand an unpredictable and strange world. I would wager that some of these biblical characters or authors (if based on real people) used their special relationship with an all-powerful (conveniently invisible) deity to improve conditions in their own mortal life.
The bible is a mish-mash of mythology, hypotheses, stories, philosophies. It's not fact.
I hope that helps clear up my thinking a little.
Best wishes
Anj
Other eclectic articles
LOL. I am just glad, that at least in Europe 2,000 years of brainwashing the good people into accepting a constructed slave religion based on ancient myth is starting to fail. Unfortunately, there are already new religions out there, like science and political correctness. Something for everyone :)
LOL. Where did you get my wife's picture from?
My wife 🤣🤣🤣🤣
hahahah that's tickled me XD
Sharon 🤣🤣🤣 love that!
Yes, Herrleeb. I agree... the religiosity is shifting to another parallel plane, as you say. It's in some people to just believe whatever sounds convincing or gives the most comfort.
Lol :D
cheers
Anj :D
Dear Anj,
I found the thread your note commenced fascinating and I hope it is ok to reply with some observations. You will note from my profile I am a Christian (UK based), something I never intended to be. Some of my thought processes and beliefs echo yours, and that is what promoted me to reply. I only became a Christian in 2012 at the age of nearly 50 so it is a relatively recent decision on my part.
Firstly I wouldn’t pity your atheism, in some respects it is a very healthy and normal place to be. Faith is a gift and one of the main problems people come across with people of faith is the mistaken belief that they can give faith or force faith on a human being. Quite how you can do that with something it isn’t yours to do that with is beyond me but it is certainly something you see occurring, as are polemics from Atheists dismissing something they don’t believe in as well. I am firmly of the view that in being called to love our neighbour, my neighbours are equally atheists, agnostics, muslims, jews, buddhists etc and so expressing pity in relation to someone else belief system is simply offensive.
There was a big argument over sin and going to hell. When Rome became the preeminent power, after a miracle caused Constantine to convert the Roman empire to become the Christian church in 312AD it gradually assimilated and overshadowed beliefs that it felt were in opposition to its own. In 664AD this commenced with the council of Whitby in England where the calculation of Easter and how the monks cut their hair was agreed (its called a tonsure). Prior to this the U.K was pulled together by Celtic Christianity and the views of people such as Pelagius who argued against the idea of original sin. Augustine developed that idea and it is from this the idea of hell and damnation originates to some degree. The Celts felt (like the mythical depiction of Adam) that we were created good and evil then entered in, which if we all look at our journey from birth through to our teenage years is pretty close to most peoples actual experience. What that means is that the Celts were seeking to release the good in people, rather than condemn the bad per se, which is a completely different approach to what is perceived about the Christian faith today by outsiders. The main theme is that it is not for people to judge each other. The God I believe in demonstrates unfathomable Grace and it is for God to decide who is forgiven, not us.
There is much of the bible which has things to offer today. It is actually a collection of 66 books and some of them are easy to read and some are not. Trashing them all is a bit like trashing a library. There is no reason why an Atheist can’t get some benefit from reading one or two of them, after all I have read Dawkins books, he is a brilliant biologist! What is clear though is that you cannot find your answers to why we are here from science. You need to explore philosophy for the why of things, science gives us the how of things. There are some very eminent scientists who are Christians, including several astro physicists. I have many friends who are Christian who are doctors. Our decisions regarding what we do or don’t believe are personal ones and on the whole they are not reflected by how we earn our living. If you ever do read any books of the bible then my favourites are Ecclesiastes, Esther and Acts. In the 1950’s an American professor of political science rebadged the book of Ecclesiastes as his own work. He was arrested by the FBI for spreading communist sedition! It is a hugely interesting book, much of it written as poetry, and could easily be on an anarchists book shelf in its own right. Esther has a savage story worthy of Shakespeare and there is no God in it. She acts as she does due to her belief but God doesn’t pitch up. Finally Acts is a first hand account by the doctor Luke who accompanied Paul on many of his journeys. It is mostly verifiable historically and gives some fascinating insights into what occurred after Jesus was crucified. These include several hundred people seeing him in public, a Saddam Hussain figure essentially going from murdering the Kurds to setting up an organisation to protect them and so on and so forth.
With regard to the primitive people, there is a common fallacy, like many post truth fake news things doing the rounds, that all the old stories are similar. The bible is unique in many regards. If you ever do spend time studying you will note that the majority of Gods are humanised and most certainly do fit your description of a primitive people looking out and seeking to find ways to account for their why. The God of the bible is separate from humankind and different. It is this reason that if we take modern spirituality it cannot be aspirational because it is about self improvement. The highest philosophical answer it can offer is from within ourselves. Thus we end up with relational truth that becomes post truth because there is nothing to anchor the philosophy to. Faith points to a higher place and for that reason, in pointing to an absolute truth, it is both anchored and aspirational. Sadly, as the bible itself depicts, people mess it up time and time again.
I enjoyed your post, wish you the best for your life but please don’t write off all christians, although it is understandable, based on your experience. Much of what people think they know about faith is misguided or just wrong, including thinking it is about something that occurred and is over and past. Christians believe in a living God, one that is evident in their lives and which provides something for them which is difficult to obtain, namely contentment. You have your choice, we can still peaceable co-exist without a need to rubbish each others points of view, after all surely we all do aspire to the notion of living together in peace.
As a poet I wrote a poem about Atheism / Faith which might surprise you - I hope you enjoy it - it is called - Starting position and is via this link.
Kind regards
Andrew C
https://steemit.com/atheism/@andrewcarnegie/starting-position
Good Man, you seem to know our Anj is immune to the "standard arguments" which most people present. She's a Tough Cookie, not a pushover at all :D
lol @tough cookie. I'm a pussycat hahah. Thanks Undie <3
What an awesome response, Andrew. I haven't forgotten about it. Been a little sidelined with family matters. I promise to deliver a full response this weekend when I get a good chunk of spare time. This is the type of thing that requires some proper thought rather than a quickie. I hope you don't mind waiting.
See you soon, and thanks :D
Thanks I've been away will look soon ;o)
Hi Andrew. Sorry for the delay. I've posted my answer here.
Cheers
Anj :)
Hi Anj,
Apologies in advance for any spelling mistakes, I've written this quickly in reply - hope you are well and in fine fettle - kind regards - Andrew C
.
https://steemit.com/christianity/@andrewcarnegie/christian-and-atheist-discussion-a-response-to-https-steemit-com-anjkara
Thanks Andrew. I've just had a quick look. That's a big one :D. Probs get back to you tomorrow.
Cheers
Anj :)
No rush - I enjoyed the banter ;o)
I am so sorry to know that you had to go through such confusion and horror during your childhood. Organised religion, in my opinion, is a greatest evil to have plagued humanity through it's history. The farther we move away from it, the better. I know there is a high chance of me getting some rough words and may be some hate in response to this comment, but that doesn't change reality, doesn't change the bloody history of religion and obviously will not change the religious atrocities being perpetrated in today's day and age.
Thanks SVK
You hit the nail on the head. I hope you don't get any hate for expressing your opinions. You're right: religion has a very bloody history and its violence can still be felt today.
Thanks for your comment
Anj :)
lol You are prolly right, "RULEZ"... if you take the top 20 genocides, likely over 10 of them are "religious".
BUT on the other hand, Organized Atheism (re: Soviet Union) killed more than Hitler, by a fairly large margin. Hitler was also an Occultist, which is somewhat of an "Anti-Religion", and I personally would not chalk that up to "Religious Crusades". But that is somewhat debatable. :-)
Don't get me wrong, I have as much of a "bone to pick" with "religion" as you and Anj do, maybe even more so. It is true that more atrocities have been perpetrated in the "Name of God" than any other. STILL! And it needs to STOP. Period!
just one point, it was not "Atheism" which led to a bloody rule by the Soviets. Same thing holds true for Chairman Mao's killing of millions of Chinese. Communists killed people for political reasons primarily, not on religious grounds. "Atheism" was but one principle of the communists.
Ya know, I was going to disagree, but I think you are right. Atheism was in those 2 cases you cite, actually just a tool by the occultists that perpetrated these atrocities.
The writings of Ayn Rand (brought up in Soviet Russia, I believe) cite NATURAL LAW and other universal truths. Communist Style Atheism is totally counter to Natural Law and Human Rights.
Good points U make Agent BC ;)
exactly, what we now associate with Atheism (for that matter ancient Atheist philosophies from India, China, Greece) is not how Communism sees Atheism.
Thanks ANJ! I have not heard from you lately and decided to check your blog, and I find that my auto-votes were not being cast either... So I fixed that as much as possible. Prolly a conflict with that dreadful vote trail we were both on LOL!
It is interesting to see more "behind the curtain", I know we have had some good talks in the past and I always found you easy to converse with, despite seemingly "opposing" belief systems. Truth is, if J.C. himself were to come back today, he'd have to "clear the Temple" AGAIN, with whips and scourges. The PR people these days, speaking "in his name" are poor representatives for ANYTHING. TV Preachers are almost ALL "snake oil salesmen". I say Almost cuz I can't stand to hear or see any of them.
I'd love tho, sometime, to talk about perhaps the
MOST INCREDIBLE BIBLE STORY EVER
You know the one where Joseph "Stopped the Sun" and there were supposedly several HOURS of Extra Daylight? Totally IMPOSSIBLE, Right? ;)
Hiya Undie. Sorry... I've literally only just noticed your reply here. My feed was chocker with stuff. My bad; I set Ginabot to look for keywords. That'll teach me haha.
Yeah, I put the autotrail on at 35% but think I'll have to ratchet it down again to something else. A shame really coz it means the recipients are getting less than crumbs, molecule-sized upvotes. Bah :P
Yes, I think you're right about JC tipping tables and going postal on the current state of affairs. Where there's the biz of religion, there's money and power. It'll always attract the detritus as management. The believers, well I wish they'd read more widely tbh or read it with their own eyes rather than just accept the explanations given by those in charge. But, hey, people are generally too lazy to do that so that's how the status quo exists.
Most incredible bible story ever
LOLZ
That is indeed a fascinating story. I love how physics trembles in the face of a miracle, don't you. They got away with this kind of nonsense before education hahaha
Laters Undie ;)
Are you arguing again?! 🤣🤣🤣
Lolz
Me? Argue? Nah, I just share opinions and thoughts with love and acceptance, as always :D
Hahahah okay well at least you sort of switched from vegans to Christians. I can’t wait to see who is next ... 👁
Ps. Cute pondering monkey lo
Bwahahahaaaa She said Monkey :D
Found ur Gif, Eagle :P
Spank da monkey, spank da monkey 😛
Yeah, it's been a weird week. I didn't mean to get into debates this week; it sorta happened by accident. Veganism and Religion are my favourite subjects though :D Yay!
xxx
Wow that’s taking a huge load! You got fire girl, that’s why I like you.
xx
anjkara,
I'm not sorry about your atheism. It's a choice. Everything in life is a choice. What we believe, how we live, what our values are in life.
I get the "fire insurance" way of thinking. It sounds like that was kind of they way your may have been raised/taught. Accept Christ and be saved from the fires of hell. You are right, nobody likes bullies.
I get what you are saying in regards to the bible not providing the answers. It can be confusing, and contradictory, left to itself. Let alone, where do you start. It can be a bit overwhelming.
I can completely understand that, as an atheist, what we are, where we came from, why we are here, or what happens after we die.
I kind of wondered the same thing earlier in life. That life consisted of going to school, graduating, getting married, having children, working a job until age 65, retire, waiting to die. There had to be more to life, something of substane, significance.
You said, "I would wager that some of these biblical characters or authors (if based on real people) used their special relationship with an all-powerful (conveniently invisible) deity to improve conditions in their own mortal life."
I think the other way around, God, due to these people drawing near to him, wanting to understand life, to have a purpose, answered their appeals to Him. With His assistance, which He promises, they end up having improved conditions. I think honestly more than anything, is that regardless of what a person faces, knowing that God is with them, they are able to deal with the challenges that life throws at them. I used to seek happiness, yet realized it was like a butterfly that flits up and down. Now, I have peace of mind, and that is gold. I'll take peace of mind over happiness any day! :) Not that I don't desire happiness, but it's not what I seek. I truly seek a daily relationship with God.
In closing, it is interesting to hear your view and insights from an atheist's position on what you believe the bible is basically made up of. It's easy to see how you would believe that it's not fact, if it is based upon what you stated.
I hope and pray that someday you will find out who you are, where you came from, why you are here, and what happens when you die.
Warmest Regards,
Wes
Thanks Wes. That was a really well-rounded argument.
We disagree on this though:
So so many believers have died or suffered in misery despite believing. Some put their lives in the hands of god, believing things will just work out for the best. Often, without concerted effort, they'll bumble along until they die with no real success or security or even peace of mind. My stint as a 'believer' was to be in fear for my soul, no peace of mind. Now, I'm okay to just live.
Peace of mind. I'm with you on that. I too have peace of mind now. I love my family and my friends and work towards us all enjoying a great life together. That gives me lots of comfort.
It's great that you also have peace of mind.
Thanks for your hopes and prayers. Maybe I'll discover these things, maybe not. We'll see.
Best wishes
Anj :)
Anj,
I really appreciate your response.
I would like to counter something you said, or maybe food for thought.....
So many unbelievers (atheists) have died or suffered in misery despite not believing. Some put their lives in their own hands, their own wisdom, believing, perhaps better said, hoping that things will work out for the best. Often, without concerted effort, they'll bumble along until they die with no real success or security or peace of mind.
So the issue isn't whether believing in God or not will grant you a better life, more security, more prosperity, etc.
There is more to this God / Creator than probably any of us really know. He Himself said, "My ways are not your ways." Ain't that the truth. :)
The "improvement" is based upon a relationship with God. Any relationship is good only due to the cooperation between the two parties involved. It is that unspoken bond between people or between God and Man that provides the peace of mind, true peace.
I value the discussion we had today. Thanks.
Hiya Wes
Thanks. I like the discussion too.
Yes, you're totally right. Humans (regardless of their belief status) have suffered or prospered.
More to god than we know: I think that can be said of any fictional character, especially the mysterious, ever-shifting types. God's ways aren't very consistent if you read through the Bible. One minute he's all-loving, the next minute he's slaughtering the entire animal kingdom. Relationships with beings like that are not the most stable.
Thanks
Anj :)
This is just perfect. To be honest, remove the threat of hell and the God of the Bible really has nothing going for him.
The Bible contains a lot of wise sayings and anecdotes. But really, apart from building the most lucrative industry (churches ET AL), it has always taken man one step forward and ten steps backwards
Thanks for sharing
I'm gonna resteem this
Thanks Gray. That's kind of you.
I agree, not much going for him at all.
Yes, it does have some wisdom, the same sort of wisdom you can find in all other mythologies and religions predating the bible.
Thanks for your comment Gray
PS I went back to check I'd spelled it right this time :D
Nah. I should thank you. You hit the nail on the head. I should have written a piece on the God of the Bible . Now, I can just share your link instead
I read your other replies. Great!
Thanks Anj
Blessings
You should deffo write it too. I don't own the genre :P and it'd be great to hear your thoughts on it.
Thanks
Blessings to you too
:D
I was an atheist once. Then my eyes were opened.
Ah... A classic, thanks for that, I chuckled a bit. The funny part is that religion can play this game too. Not all religion is creationist, there are some that believe in a God that sets the big bang in motion.
You know, using God to fill in gaps of what we cannot figure out ourselves.
The complaint I have with religion is that it doesn't give any useful predictions. Meaning, even if it were true, I can't use the knowledge to create a solar panel... That's not to say religion doesn't have its place. Plenty of good can come from faith in something you believe in.
]]Not all religion is creationist]]
I know, but those religions are irrational.
[[using God to fill in gaps of what we cannot figure out ourselves.]]
That isn't particularly close to what I'm doing or saying. I'm saying you can't know anything without God. The God of the Bible is a necessary precondition for knowledge and intelligibility.
[[it doesn't give any useful predictions]]
How do you know the future will be like the past?
[[even if it were true, I can't use the knowledge to create a solar panel]]
God is necessary to have ANY knowledge.
[[Plenty of good can come from faith in something you believe in.]]
How do you know what good is?
Please show me how you decide what's irrational about other religions. Let's see if we can apply the same formulae to yours too.
How do you know this is true? What if they have a different god to yours? Do they still not know anything?
'Good' is a subjective opinion based on perspective. It doesn't actually exist in real terms. In you bible, we're told it's not 'good' to kill people. How about when God kills? Is it ok then? We're told it's not 'good' to own people as slaves. According to your bible, it's ok. They even provide instructions on how to beat them up if they're disobeying you. Is that 'good'?
How do you know what's good?
Sorry the comment about filling the gaps was not about you, it was about the previous line of what you called irrational religion.
I don't. But my main point here is that the science mindset is productive. Sure, maybe God is the reason for it, but I feel that's a separate layer of philosophy. Just my opinion though. I'm saying, if I'm a scientist, does it matter if God is the reason behind my brains and productivity?
God is good.
Oh, no sweat. :-)
"Maybe", eh? What's your alternative?
How do you know your senses are reliable, that your brain accurately interprets sensory perception, and that the world outside of you actually exists?
It matters a lot. For example:
Are you saying you believe in God? If so, who is He?
I don't know what the alternative is (if not God), and I'm okay with that.
Which actions to pursue, the purpose of life. Yes, maybe you're right. I haven't explored it yet. So far I'm a lemming.
As for the last question, I'll put it just as vaguely: I don't not believe in God. So yeah, I don't know who He is.
IOW, you want to be fully woke, you need to follow the Lord of the universe, who isn't deceived by anyone and who knows the truth about everything, tells the truth to His people, and leads His people into proper priorities, values, and knowledge. You can trust Him, but other people you can't trust. Shouldn't trust yourself either - remember how many times you have failed yourself.
I appreciate the help but I will continue to bask in my sin, for the time being. There may be a wake up time but it will not be now.
All due respect, but you shouldn't be OK with it. What you're saying is that you don't know the truth and don't care to know it.
I'm warning you that at this point you have no excuse, b/c your conscience is telling you to seek the truth but you're like "Nah, I'm OK." You're not OK. You like everyone are in sin and you need to be reconciled to God, as you are currently at enmity with Him.
Repent of your sin and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ. Don't sell yourself short. This life won't last forever.
I’m following your convo and the people you are having a debate with are my friends. That said, being Awake means to allow people to find their way, make no demands and not judge. It is not for us to judge only Him. There are also levels of vibration and your continued judgment keeps you stuck in 3D, this Is not a judgment but a fact. To say to someone to Awaken is 3D soul frequency. Just an observation from a person who has reached 5D and above. Keep it real and just let other’s soul paths go, no other soul is our responsibility. Help those that want help. When we make information appealing it’s amazing the conversations we attract. Stay positive and Do You. Blessings.
Thanks Eon.
Yes, the god of the gaps. Ever-receding as science creeps forward.
Lol no help building a solar panel. I think you're right about that. There's never any decent recipes in there either.
Religion having its place. I think religiosity is inbuilt somehow. We're all vulnerable to ideologies and set thought patterns. Hardwired to believe stuff. The problem I see with religion (or the main dogmas) is that it breeds a 'them and us' mindset. People have done wonderful things in the name of religion. But there are uncountable atrocities too. General personal belief seems to be pretty harmless though.
Thanks for your comment :)
The reason this argument exists is b/c shallow religious people have made bad arguments over the course of time. It isn't actually a valid or relevant critique of the biblical position.
I don't really think so... People said god was responsible for this and that, then as we learned more about things, we realised it wasn't god, just gravity or some weather situation or something. God lives in the gaps in human knowledge.
I'm really interested in hearing a valid, relevant critique. Do you have any links I can read?
That is not my argument. I know it's what a lot of people have said. It is not what I am saying; I urge you to deal with me and not with others at the moment. Interact with the arguments as presented.
A valid relevant critique of the biblical position?
It doesn't exist, any more than there could exist one of the "2+2=4" position.
Atheism isn't a belief.
Atheism = without belief in a god (that's it). All the other stuff you mention is to do with science. I'm not a believer in anything.
However... you could twist that quote and say that Theism is the belief that god created the universe. If the universe needed a creator, then surely god did too. It's an infinite regression. Makes perfect sense.
Why would God need a creator? That makes zero sense.
Why would the universe need a creator? That makes no sense either.
I sense a sequel to the Matrix Trilogy is in order.............
Just Sayin..... 😎
hahahah I think maybe you could be right lolz :D
👌
\why would the universe need a creator?\
Because the universe began to exist. It doesn't seem to me that you've thought much about this.
I've thought about it a lot actually. Why do you think natural phenomena need a creator? Things happen naturally, without thought, without a big mover behind it.
By your reasoning, god began to exist at some point too. Who, what, where, when, how is his creator? And theirs, and theirs? Assuming everything has a creator.
[[Why do you think natural phenomena need a creator? ]]
Because they began to exist. From nothing, nothing comes.
[[Things happen naturally, without thought, without a big mover behind it.]]
Begging the question.
[[By your reasoning, god began to exist at some point too. ]]
God never began to exist.
How do you know god never began to exist? It would strike me as naive if your answer was 'because a book told me so'.
What do you mean: 'begging the question'? Things do happen naturally with no apparent help from anybody.
See here for more replies...
https://busy.org/@anjkara/atheist-vs-christian
It's getting too crowded in the comments section here.