Christian and Atheist discussion: Faith is a gift? Hell. Belief. Philosophy. Mythology. Truth.

This is a response to the discussion happening here – Why Atheism? Very quick overview. Thanks to @andrewcarnegie for providing me with lots of food for thought. I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you. I've created a separate blog in response because I tend to get too wordy :D

Firstly I wouldn’t pity your atheism, in some respects it is a very healthy and normal place to be. Faith is a gift and one of the main problems people come across with people of faith is the mistaken belief that they can give faith or force faith on a human being. Quite how you can do that with something it isn’t yours to do that with is beyond me but it is certainly something you see occurring, as are polemics from Atheists dismissing something they don’t believe in as well. I am firmly of the view that in being called to love our neighbour, my neighbours are equally atheists, agnostics, muslims, jews, buddhists etc and so expressing pity in relation to someone else belief system is simply offensive.

I used to be offended when people expressed pity at my lack of faith. It doesn't bother me now. Like anyone on the opposite side of anything, they feel their position is right and the other is operating under misinformation or misunderstanding. I don't pity anyone who's into religion, except for the children. I feel really bad for them (partly because I've been there).

Faith is a gift

I'd agree with this, but with qualifiers. Idiocy can also be a gift. Being free from doubt and knowledge could be a blissful way to live one's life. The beauty of faith is that everything is mapped out, has purpose; all you have to do is live within the parameters set by that ideology or dogma (or give the appearance of living it). It could be said that childhood represents the faith condition – deferring to authority, following rules without understanding them, glossing over anomalies, Father Christmas... I wouldn't exchange places with a child though. I prefer autonomy and thinking for myself, making my own way. I know some people who feel their disabled child is a gift, but I've never met an expectant mother who wants this type of gift. I see blind faith as a disability or defect. In the worst case scenario I see it as a lazy way to live a life. Someone's done all the thinking and working out for you. All you have to do is play along (publicly).

There was a big argument over sin and going to hell. When Rome became the preeminent power, after a miracle caused Constantine to convert the Roman empire to become the Christian church in 312AD it gradually assimilated and overshadowed beliefs that it felt were in opposition to its own. In 664AD this commenced with the council of Whitby in England where the calculation of Easter and how the monks cut their hair was agreed (its called a tonsure). Prior to this the U.K was pulled together by Celtic Christianity and the views of people such as Pelagius who argued against the idea of original sin. Augustine developed that idea and it is from this the idea of hell and damnation originates to some degree. The Celts felt (like the mythical depiction of Adam) that we were created good and evil then entered in, which if we all look at our journey from birth through to our teenage years is pretty close to most peoples actual experience. What that means is that the Celts were seeking to release the good in people, rather than condemn the bad per se, which is a completely different approach to what is perceived about the Christian faith today by outsiders. The main theme is that it is not for people to judge each other. The God I believe in demonstrates unfathomable Grace and it is for God to decide who is forgiven, not us.

The information about sin and hell was amazing. Celts: that's an interesting thought – to release the good in people rather than condemn the bad. Thank you for sharing that. Although I often use the words good/bad I don't find them helpful when applied to people. Everyone I've ever known embodies a combination and it's this dynamic that makes them human and wonderful. I like that we are judged by other humans. Their opinions, reflected back to us, help us to examine our behaviour and modify it (if we want). These many mirrors, if you like, are much more reliable than gazing at the faded, opaque, bastardised, politicised, fictionalised opinions from thousands of years ago. I don't know these people. How can I be sure I can trust or value their opinion?

The various edits call to mind I book I read ages ago called 'The Lost Christianities'. It charts Christianity's variations and how various ideas did or didn't make it to the final cut. So many filters and editing and cutting and adding. There were some very interesting (sometimes hilarious) Christian beliefs. It's worth a read if you ever get the time.

Your god has unfathomable grace and decides who is forgiven. It prickles me, that one being (and his backstory suggests he's not the sort of being I'd trust), gets to decide who does/doesn't get to suffer for all eternity. It's a cruel setup. Look what he did to poor Job, and all because he wanted to take a bet with Satan.

There is much of the bible which has things to offer today. It is actually a collection of 66 books and some of them are easy to read and some are not. Trashing them all is a bit like trashing a library. There is no reason why an Atheist can’t get some benefit from reading one or two of them, after all I have read Dawkins books, he is a brilliant biologist!

I agree that the bible is a book worth reading. Everybody, especially Christians, should do so, from start to finish. That's what convinced me to go atheist :D

What is clear though is that you cannot find your answers to why we are here from science. You need to explore philosophy for the why of things, science gives us the how of things.

Yes, philosophy can help us to guess at the whys. But, not knowing the answers does not automatically mean we should just give up and accept ancient mythology as the answer. Besides, the bible is demonstrably wrong on so so many things that it lacks credibility as a reliable source for anything, really.

There are some very eminent scientists who are Christians, including several astro physicists. I have many friends who are Christian who are doctors.

Yes, but the majority of thinkers, scientists and other people who've got some higher education, are atheists. And I've known some pretty dumb doctors :p

Our decisions regarding what we do or don’t believe are personal ones and on the whole they are not reflected by how we earn our living.

Exactly. Belief is personal and cannot be forced. Either we do or we don't. This is based partly on what we think it credible information and partly on personal experience.

If you ever do read any books of the bible then my favourites are Ecclesiastes, Esther and Acts. In the 1950’s an American professor of political science rebadged the book of Ecclesiastes as his own work. He was arrested by the FBI for spreading communist sedition! It is a hugely interesting book, much of it written as poetry, and could easily be on an anarchists book shelf in its own right. Esther has a savage story worthy of Shakespeare and there is no God in it. She acts as she does due to her belief but God doesn’t pitch up. Finally Acts is a first hand account by the doctor Luke who accompanied Paul on many of his journeys. It is mostly verifiable historically and gives some fascinating insights into what occurred after Jesus was crucified. These include several hundred people seeing him in public, a Saddam Hussain figure essentially going from murdering the Kurds to setting up an organisation to protect them and so on and so forth.

I don't dispute the bible's interesting content (although some of it is utterly dull). Lol, that's funny about the plagiarist guy being arrested for spreading communist sedition.

With regard to the primitive people, there is a common fallacy, like many post truth fake news things doing the rounds, that all the old stories are similar. The bible is unique in many regards. If you ever do spend time studying you will note that the majority of Gods are humanised and most certainly do fit your description of a primitive people looking out and seeking to find ways to account for their why.

If you look at Zoroastrianism you will see that many of the mythology surrounding Jesus is recycled from this and other earlier myths. I'm aware there's a lot of debunking and saying there's no evidence but that surely circles us back to the bible's lack of verifiability. We recycle stories all the time, give them a new spin or a new name and – boosh – rebrand it as the latest thing.

The God of the bible is separate from humankind and different.

Hmm. I disagree. He's like lots of other despots: bullying, controlling, irrational, jealous, spiteful, unfair, cruel...

It is this reason that if we take modern spirituality it cannot be aspirational because it is about self improvement. The highest philosophical answer it can offer is from within ourselves. Thus we end up with relational truth that becomes post truth because there is nothing to anchor the philosophy to. Faith points to a higher place and for that reason, in pointing to an absolute truth, it is both anchored and aspirational. Sadly, as the bible itself depicts, people mess it up time and time again.

Modern spirituality is just the evolution of the drive to be religious in some way. I think it's hardwired into humans. We seek patterns, meaning, connection. When we don't understand how or why, we reach into the unknown and get creative.

I don't think we are able to access an absolute truth. I'm not even convinced it exists. I'm not opposed to temporarily anchoring to reasonable positions but even these can be problematic. That's why it's important to check our facts, continue reading, find new sources, keep an open mind. I've found over the years (I'm nearly the same age as you), that some of my anchors were set in very shaky ground. How embarrassing :P

I enjoyed your post, wish you the best for your life but please don’t write off all christians, although it is understandable, based on your experience. Much of what people think they know about faith is misguided or just wrong, including thinking it is about something that occurred and is over and past. Christians believe in a living God, one that is evident in their lives and which provides something for them which is difficult to obtain, namely contentment. You have your choice, we can still peaceable co-exist without a need to rubbish each others points of view, after all surely we all do aspire to the notion of living together in peace.

I don't write off Christians. I've got a few Christians of my own and I love them very much. Yes, I've seen many Christians claim to be contented. Contentment can also be attained via atheism. In fact, I've never been so content and happy.

Rubbishing points of view: I don't subscribe to doing this. I think you're more likely to enjoy the discussion if you air alternative points of view with civility and honestly. There have been times when I've descended into a bit of sniping and cruel jabs but I've not been proud of those moments. Better to discuss the facts as they fall without bashing anyone.

And your poem: that was really clever. I liked it :D (although I preferred reading it in its original order ;)

Thanks for the food for thought and sorry it took me a while to get back to you.

Peace
@AnjKara :)

PS Apologies. Due to time pressures, I'm recycling some of my pics. :)

Other eclectic articles

Shape-shifting, name-changing nuclear processing industry – Brit style

Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

Woman: How far have we come? SPU Poetry Contest 2

SMARTSTEEM

Minnow Bootcamp

Crypto Empire

Unless otherwise stated, all pics in my blog are either mine or freely available online (pixabay, wikimedia, pexels, flickr, public domain pictures, freestockphotos.biz, maxpixel), labelled for reuse and doctored by me.