Your 2 Cent Vote is Worthless, The Real Deal on Dust Votes

in #steemit4 years ago
"Penny for your thoughts" how about "My 2 cents Worth"?

Hopefully this post will open your eyes even further to the Dust Vote issue rule. It's not just a me too post piggybacking on a hot topic, rather one that might change your voting habits!

Just over a week ago a post by @timcliff that asked for discussion about raising the dust threshold brought attention to this issue. In it he mentions the current dust threshold as such:

Currently if a post/comment earns 0.001 to 0.019 SBD worth of rewards - this is rounded down to 0.00. If a post/comment earns at least 0.02 SBD - then they receive their reward.

Now most everyone read this as long a vote displays 0.02 on screen then the person will get paid, Wrong Assumption!

Read the key part of the statement:

earns at least 0.02 SBD - then they receive their reward.

This 0.02 SBD requirement seems to mean the total payout amount being 50% to SBD and 50% to SP AFTER curation of 25% is taken off the top. If someone can prove somewhere in the code that this is incorrect please do, but my observations have led to this conclusion.

Some Other Reading

This topic peaked my interest, but last week was crazy for me so I was only able to read other peoples posts about it as I went. In case you want to take a ride down the rabbit whole here are a few of the posts that were spurred by @timcliff's post:

If you don't want to read that much let me give you the general tone of the posts and maybe more important the comments. The biggest takeaway to me was the general lack of knowledge of this payout rule and how it wasn't presented clearly to anyone. Seriously go look in the FAQ and find any mention of the Dust Vote rule, it's not there. So there is some anger, disappointment, and other strong feelings about the topic. But the rules are the rules and we need to understand what we are really working with which is why I did some testing.

I'm a numbers guys and can get really technical, but know this will bore most of you and turn you brains into mush and @eonwarped already covered this. So instead I'm going to lay out some test votes that were done to see at what point you will see a reward paid for an upvote.
Copy of PIF Winners.png

Few Examples - Test Votes

To check to see where the cut off was I had 3 votes given the first night on comments that previously had no votes. These were very last minute votes at 12-13 hours before payout so the pool couldn't change much. Plus the price feed had very little room to change in that time which also effects things.

The votes were made with an account that has around 1000sp and is able to adjust the weight of their vote with a couple percentage for each 1c worth of votes. That is 1-5% maybe 0.01, 6-10% is 0.02, and so forth. So while the displayed value of the vote might look the same two different 0.02 votes could have a different total value.

Went into this fully expecting to prove that a 2 cent vote was plenty to give a payout as it's what I had been reading. Here is what we found out:
  • First night we tested 3 votes at the lowest voting power to reach 0.01, 0.02, and then 0.03. Of these 3 votes only the 0.03 vote paid out. With a payout of 0.004 SP | 0.009 SBD

Well that wasn't what I expected...back to the drawing board. Second night we test with votes that were the highest possible 0.01, 0.02, and 0.03 thinking that maybe the 0.02 vote was just barely to low at just over the amount.

  • Second Night with votes that were to the max of 0.02 before hitting 0.03 (based on SteemWorlds sliding bar) the 0.02 vote still didn't pay out anything and only the 0.03 vote did with a payout of 0.004 SP | 0.012 SBD

Further Observations

So I realize that a couple test votes isn't proof, but I have watched at least 100 of other 0.02 displayed payouts pay zero over the last 5 days while doing the tests and then finding time to write this post. Each time none of them paid out to the author.

At the very least I have watch 2 SBD worth of votes disappear as they have been deemed "dust" in the last few days.

Please don't just take my word for it. Look at your list of comments and scroll down to those that will payout in the next 24 hours. See if any of them are 0.02 displayed votes and see if any are 0.03 votes. Note the time which they were written and then tomorrow open Steem World and look at your payouts. The ones which were 0.01 or 0.02 will not payout and those which are 0.03 will. Post your findings below to help shed more light on this topic.


I'm torn here as a 0.03 vote is a lot to achieve on a comment for most users so a large amount of votes are just deemed worthless. It's rare to get a vote big enough to count as many of the users on Steemit don't have enough Voting Power to achieve level of a vote that isn't "dust" and of those that do there are even fewer who have enough to give out 0.03 votes to multiple comments during a given day on top of their normal voting of actual posts.

While this makes it feel like the smallest members votes aren't being heard I get the flip side of this coin. Servers that make all the calculations for rewards would be further taxed if every .0001 vote was paid out, spammers would be rewarded for more of their bullshit (@timcliff's point of potentially raising the threshold), and the amounts really are so small it wouldn't actually effect that many peoples accounts in a noticeable way.

While I hate spammers and think they there is probably a new circle of hell being devised for them in Dante's Inferno...or at least one can hope's hard to ignore the newest members of Steemit who come here with the hopes and dreams of earning some money for their blogging efforts. These dreams tend to run face first into the reality that getting noticed is very hard as a blogger. Then to find out later that their efforts which barely yielded any results go from barely any results to zero results due to the "dust" rule.

Have to believe that with all of the voting power that is available in steemit that there should be a way far the witnesses to reward even the smallest of members who take the time and put in the effort to actually engage with other bloggers making relevant comments. Don't have the answer to the issue, but asking that future discussions take into account that the masses don't have the voting power to give 0.03 votes to reward those who comment on their posts yet they deserve to have their voice vote count!

Take Away

As the smaller members of the steemit community are the ones effected the most by the "Dust Vote" rule we need to change our voting habits in an attempt to maximize the rewards that we can give to others. We need to make sure our votes aren't dusted to the side and instead use them in ways that will actually reward the authors as we intended.

A couple things really stand out for changes that need to happen to voting habits on comments until this issue is addressed.

  1. If your voting power doesn't allow for a 0.03 vote on a comment Don't Waste Your Vote! Instead save your votes and only upvote actual posts.
  2. If your voting power allows for a 0.03 vote on comments make sure to use this as your cut off. Giving a 1 or 2 cent upvote on a comment is a waste of your voting power and isn't giving a reward to the author as you intended.

Some Helpful Resources to Grow Your Account

If you are one of the many who are looking for some support to grow your account without paying for promotion consider taking a look at a few of these resources/groups.

  • Those that are having a hard time reaching 0.03 on your posts look for contests giving away shares of @steembasicincome. Steem Basic Income (SBI) gives an upvote for each post you produce. You can read more about it in my Steem Basic Income Review.
  • Pay It Forward Curation Contest Currently in week 4 we give away SBI shares and have a 4 SBD bounty on the post. This contest is a great way to meet new people and give a helping hand to 3 bloggers who deserve a little extra attention and votes.
  • @greetersguild is a group that helps new steemit bloggers get started on Steemit. Proud to be an official member and to help promote this great group of people. SGG is always looking for bloggers who produce quality content to join (no cost). Their discord channel is here:
  • @asapers is another great group that is focused on helping newbies get their feet wet. Here is the A.S.A.P.ers Discord Room
  • @newbiegames is a fun way to earn SBI shares or other prizes while having the opportunity to meet new people. Here is their Discord Group

This is information every newbie should know! Thank you!

Congratulations you have been resteemed as part of #newbieresteemday's top posts for the day! ...

We invite you to use our tag to connect with more of our members. To learn more: Come Join Us!!! (Newbie Resteem Initiative)

I will keep this short because I'm not really sure if you're robot or not. But thank you so much for following me. It means a lot to me. So I am here to thank you personally because truthfully I appreciate it. If you are not a robot, feel free to reply back to me. If you are a robot well thank you for what you're doing. I send all of my love your way until we meet again. And may our creator bless yous.

Hello. I'm the founder of Newbie Resteem Day here on Steemit. I can assure you we are not a bot. We are a grass roots group of Steemit members who work hard trying to promote great content creators like yourself. We are non profit and our main goal is to create a culture of support for newbies and help them build themselves up. No gimmicks. :) If ever you would like to join us on our discord channel the link is at the top on newbieresteemday accounts blog page. There is always a great community there and help if ever you need it. If ever you need a hand never hesitate to reach out to our members there. Whether it's post resteeming, post structure, or just questions in general, we are always here to help. It's newbies who create great content like yourself that we love to give a hand to so if ever you need anything don't be shy and give us a shout.

Very good to know! And thank you so much for responding to me. And letting me know. I tried to not have much to do with Bots. I just feel they're way too impersonal. However, I do try to thank them because I figure somebody has to have made them. And because I don't understand everything that goes on here, I don't necessarily know if some box are good and some were bad or if all our good or all are bad. I try not to be involved in all of that conversation. I would rather spend my time getting to know people here and helping to raise people up. And thank you for all of your kind words. They all help to build me up and inspire me to keep going. Just like everybody, sometimes my life is very tough and hard enough to deal with by itself. It is nice to be able to come here and be uplifted. It's even nicer to come here and be able to lift other people up because of how it makes me feel. I like the thought that with my simple words there's a possibility that I can turn somebody's life around or help them to see the light that brings them out of the storm. In any case, I have a horrible habit of rambling on so I'm going to end here. Thank you again for everything you've done for me and that you are doing for everybody here in our community. I send all of my love to you and all of yours until we meet again. And I ask that our creator bless yous.

@johndoer123 You are very funny, you look like an angel that fell from the sky and walks the way distributing love and good wishes, but since it seems that you do not know how to use the computer very well, sometimes you get confused and copy and paste a comment twice and end up looking like a robot that was left hanging in an infinite loop hahahahahah Thanks for existing! I'm watching your contests.

Yes I know. I have caught myself doing it before. I have to do everything on my phone, and it is not a very good one. 😁 Sometimes the screen goes crazy, and I have to just watch it as it fix buttons and clicks them at random. But I just laugh at it when it does it, I think it makes the phone have a pretty fun personality. ☺
And as always, thank you for the compliments. I don't necessarily know about an angel though. I just tried to do what I can to brighten people's days. I think that you're a wonderful person too. And I am so glad to have have met you. Please, let's always stay in touch with each other.

I am a fish risking this sea, sailing aimlessly and is exhausting. I will speak for me. The new ones not only need SBD or SP to believe, but also the key tools to support and impel us. Something like "Do not give me fish, teach me how to fish". There is a lot of information here, but so scattered that it is a difficult task to gather them together. Sometimes I have gone to bed at 3am reading content to guide me.

There are many accounts that talk about helping, but they only propose Trail that are a waste of SP and Bandwidth, at least for me.

Others, because they have projects that look great, but are not designed for newcomer. I was left wanting to participate in the project of @steembasicincome demand 1 Steem ... I do not know if they remember, but accumulate 1 Steem is forced labor almost that 24 hours for 3 months..

I think the contests have been very popular, because you do not invest so much energy and you can get the reward. Do not feel disappointed as when you invest many hours in a post and is not valued. And now it turns out that not even 0.001 touches me.

interesting. Does the market price of steem affect this?

Yes it does. If the market price is dropping then there is increased risk of a vote that was right at the cut off turning into zero. If the market price is increasing you have a chance of one that would have been zeroed out getting paid out.

The other factor is the reward pool as a whole. Large last minute votes can effect the entire reward pool. Those like Haejin that get massive last minute upvotes can take a bunch of upvotes that would have been paid and turn them all into dust.

Flip side when someone gives a massive flag last minute it could push a bunch of borderline votes from dust to paying out.

So, do you think it's acceptable for me to upvote my own comment after somebody up votes me with a $0.02 vote? I try not to upvote myself. But I feel like if I don't somebody else gets the money for doing nothing. I'm just curious on the communities View on this particular question. Is it better to not up vote yourself and let somebody else have the money, or to upvote yourself so that someone else doesn't get the money?

I have been upvoting myself if someone leaves a vote that will get dusted. But overall my self vote rate is pretty low so confident that if anyone takes issue with it I don't really But honestly I am doing it and it only makes sense to salvage the vote plus the person who voted will get some curation rewards.

Thanks so much for explaining this last minute vote thing, @thedarkhorse. SOOO much to learn! ;)

Thanks for asking about this, @kaliju. Response by @thedarkhorse helped me understand aspects of this my mind hadn't even reached yet. ;)

Thanks for posting about this. I've been ranting about this ever since Tims post. It really burns me. My vote (with delegation) is 0.4 and I've seen it reduce to nothing by the time it pays out. It sucks because we are all accustomed to trying to vote on comments we want to curate and comments where we want to say thank you. Horrible really. All of our habits and expectations need to change to consider this.

I just want to share that I give out SBI almost every other week on my blog. Posting every day has been my only option to hopefully power up some soon before my delegation is gone. May the force be with all minnows in these trying times.

It's just important for everyone to understand the rules to work within them. There are actually some legit reasons to have this in place and I get the server constraints along with the spammer issues. I'm torn on this issue, but the rules are the rules and for now it's just about educating as many of those effected by the rule as possible.

"All of our habits and expectations need to change to consider this."

You got that right - I just found this now. I have a "bigger" vote and always makes sure it is over 1 cent before voting on anything. Sometimes I blast through comments on a post to encourage people.

Now I guess I want to get to 3 cents instead. I'm fine with this - just tell me!!!

I'm fine with this - just tell me!!!

Exactly. I spent well over an hour reading the entire FAQ thinking maybe it must be there. It isn't. So this hidden penalty wipes out a bunch of voting weight that is calculated into the pool and then redistributes it to the votes that are paying out. Which again is fine, but let us know in advance so we are part of the group wasting their vote and instead can maximize our efforts here. Feel like it's a hidden tax.

I spent well over an hour reading the entire FAQ thinking maybe it must be there. It isn't.

Nope. Not in there. Someone on his post asked him and he was kind enough to truthfully say it was not there.

That's why I questioned the vision and intentions of the Steemian powers that be in that post, the one that led me there by @maverickinvictus and others.

It's one thing to have a rule that flies in the face of what Steemit purports to be - a place where anyone can come, share value that serves the community and make friends and crypto $$.

It's quite another to hide such an important rule so that no one knows about it and have people trying to encourage and support others with worthless upvotes.

I've calmed down since then but it's left a bad taste in my mouth and makes me realize we need top Witnesses who care about things like this that work against small members in our Steemian community.

I'm fine with this - just tell me!!!

That's the one request I made of Tim Cliff on his post, other than deleting this biased-against-small fish rule no one knew about.

Asked him to ensure that the $0.00-$0.019 rounded down rule be clearly put in the FAQ's and other important areas so peeps can KNOW about it.

Now most everyone read this as long a vote displays 0.02 on screen then the person will get paid, Wrong Assumption!
This is what I thought also because I received reward 4 days ago. :)

And after reading @timcliff's post I realized it is NOT IMPLEMENTED YET. At the bottom of his post he said that it is only a proposal, "an idea".

Speaking of 0.02 SBD means $0.04 or MORE upvote value.

I can't comment about the maths but I suspected as much a while ago but never looked into it until @timcliff's post. I still don't know the math but this makes sense to me:

If your voting power doesn't allow for a 0.03 vote on a comment Don't Waste Your Vote! Instead save your votes and only upvote actual posts.

If your voting power allows for a 0.03 vote on comments make sure to use this as your cut off. Giving a 1 or 2 cent upvote on a comment is a waste of your voting power and isn't giving a reward to the author as you intended.

but I suspected as much a while ago but never looked into it until @timcliff's post.

Honestly think that most people didn't know about this until after that post. Personally I didn't know about it and it was eye opening as I have left tons of small votes on comments over the time I've been here. If I had known better my voting would of been different for sure.

I certainly hope that this helps people to stop being frivolous with their votes. They think they are doing good things and in truth they aren't helping anyone. Steemit gives you some free votes, but you have to use them wisely or invest in the platform. Of course, you could just vote for posts that are going to pay out, which is why the system is designed this way - to encourage popular/quality content and not spam. We have to get to a point where people stop believing that their post of a picture of butterflies is actually valuable. It isn't. There are 5 million pictures of butterflies on the internet. It truly isn't worth an upvote.

So, if somebody leaves a $0.02 upvote on one of my comments, do you think it's acceptable for me to upvote that comment so that way I don't let the money go to somebody else?

this is an individual choice John... Some do as they think it is better for them to get bigger faster... others think it is shameful to upvote yourself... I would say that both have merit and it really depends on your other activities... I myself would never question you doing it, as I have seen you do so many selfless things. I would assume you are trying to get bigger to help even more people. Just my 2 cents ;) (or should we start saying 3?)

☺ Thank you, sir.

I'm almost wondering if we should start saying something like *my $2." 😁 Thank you sir for your time and for answering my question. And thank you especially for your confidence in me that I am doing well and the right things.

Your are doing incredibly well @johndoer123 ... I am very impressed and you have spread out and made many good contacts with people! Keep it up and just have fun, you will light this place up someday!

Thank you sir. I won't eat up your time. As you know coming from you, such great words strengthen my heart. So I thank you for them. And I guess it's kind of hard for me to not meet people because sometimes I just can't shut up. ☺ But for you, for now I will let go for I know you are busy. Have a wonderful day sir. I send you and all of yours all of my love.

You got a 0.61% upvote from @emperorofnaps courtesy of @davemccoy!

Want to promote your posts too? Send 0.05+ SBD or STEEM to @emperorofnaps to receive a share of a full upvote every 2.4 hours...Then go relax and take a nap!

and yes if some people have their way, they would institute that tomorrow!

You got a 0.61% upvote from @emperorofnaps courtesy of @davemccoy!

Want to promote your posts too? Send 0.05+ SBD or STEEM to @emperorofnaps to receive a share of a full upvote every 2.4 hours...Then go relax and take a nap!

It's interesting information, I'm inclined to comment, I feel that with my little vote of $0.01 I don't do anything significant in a publication, however I have met people I support with a comment and have been reproached for not voting for them, I work hard to increase my sp not only to decrease bandwidth problems, but also to support many more steemians with my vote, hopefully soon the vote of the little ones will stop being dust.

Wow, that was some hell of trouble running that test. It is worth it though, and reveals perspectives i personally haven't known until now.

Honestly i prefer to vote on comments rather than posts, as i am this interested in promoting engagement

Your finding here obviously reveals how unprofitable it is for 'small people' to vote on comments, and i see you discourage such from voting on comments.

But we also do well to recognize that voting comments, profitable or not, shows support or agreement with the comment, and may not as such be premised on giving a redeemable reward, even if it would be better if it did so.

A quick comment of agreement and then going to upvote a post from this person might be a better way to show appreciation for those that can't get above the dust threshold.

Okay. That should cover my concern. Thanks

I hadn't known about the dust threshold until I read (I think it was) @fullcoverbetting's post last week. One of my complaints since I arrived on Steemit two months and so ago is that new users' votes aren't even worth $0.01, and my goal has been to reach an amount of SP so that my upvote becomes worth $0.01. I had been upvoting people who comment on my posts thinking that I'd be supporting them, but from what you have shown on this post, my vote and VP are just being wasted. As you said on one of the comments, several thousands of votes are being dusted each day. This is sad...

Exactly correct, they are wasted and it is sad. Focus on adding to comments that already have 3 cents or focus on the main post and your vote will count. As long as the total breaks the dust threshold then all votes are counted.

Well looks like my base vote is now .03 instead of the old .02
I will do my own experament and self vote a couple of upcoming payout comments to see what happens.

Look forward to hearing what you find, but pretty sure I know the answer based on how many I watched.

yep. The $.02 vote disappeared and the $.03 registered as a pay out. Damn it all to hell !!!! least now you know. And think of this fact, the price feed can change a lot from day 1 to 7 from when a comment is made. With only 12 or so hours there was very little room for that changing to effect the payout. Also very little room for large votes to effect the reward pool.

The price has also been increasing so the odds should of increased for a payout if anything.

Anyways to play it safe you are best to use a 3 cent vote.

guess I will jsut have to make it rain when I up vote

lol - this is making my head hurt!!!

here is the start. This was the bare minimum vote for a .02 and a .03
upvote test 1.JPG

upvote test 2.JPG

we will see how it shakes out.

Ok, why did you comment here and not my post? PSHHH. 😝

I would stick with 0.03 to be on the safe side. The reasoning is, as @eonwarped investigated for us, the 0.02 upvote value stays frozen on the screen until either someone upvotes behind you, or until post payout. If steem price plunge, then that 0.02 value, upon payout, could now really be 0.015 and is deemed dust. You have to account for the fluctuation in the steem price, along with other criteria. Check out his post for details, I have it resteemed on my blog and mentioned above. It's really good. Just more on the technical side. :)

@beeyou while @eonwarped did the math correct I am pretty a 0.02 vote will never be able to payout due to curation which I think he ignored. Would love for someone that actually has real knowledge of this to actually speak up as there isn't a good way to research it that I found. I might be wrong about the curation being the issue, but it's the only thing that makes sense IMO.

I have seen 0.02 paid out actually. Curation has nothing to do with it. If you like I can walk you through the code. Especially the part confirming what I'm saying about the value you see bring frozen until next action or payout. Feel free also to reach out on steemit chat (same name) or discord eonwarped#2295.

I get that it's frozen, but with only 12 hours to payout with last minute votes there was very little time for a change in the voting pool or steem price feeds. Plus with over 100 votes watched not one under .03 paid out.

I will reach out on discord we can talk further. Thanks for the offer.

If anyone is following along here, it appears there's something that is unexplained here. Hard to investigate these corner cases without full history, which does not appear to be available :( . We seem to have confirmed that curation is not a factor at least, so to my understanding it has to be changes in voting pool (since feed price went up). However, even that seems unlikely as @thedarkhorse was spacing out two tests within 2 minutes of each other (who knows, maybe the variance in the two corresponding blocks was high???). In any case, go on the safe side and go higher than 0.02 as instructed in the original post :P

Don't be jealous

Edit: sorry 3 word spam post. so here is 11 more.

Oh good, I was going to tag you in this @beeyou.

Thanks for this expirement. I do believe that it is a shitty rule butI guess that we have to with it!
We may not forget that the value is expressed in $ to make it easier to understand! Under the hood, the blockchain works with vests, Mvests and an even bigger type of vest!
These vests are hold against the dust threshold. So whenthe value states 0.02$ it could or could not surpass the threshold. The problem is that I don’t know how what the threshold expressed in vests is!

The vest required to show a displayed 0.02 vote just isn't enough to get a payout currently. I can't find anywhere what the vest threshold is and I looked in the code. I was going cross eyed looking at it so might have missed it, but it there somewhere. Would love to know what it is.

THere are some creative solutions that could change things but it will require actual change which seems anathema to Steemit at times. But keep trying. Appreciate the info. Blessings.

It takes a lot to change the course of a large ship and steemit has become that. There is a lot of money at play and the greater the financial impact the harder it will be to change. 0.01 and 0.02 votes don't seem like much, but if 10,000 of them are being erased each day that adds up to a massive redistribution of wealth to the wealthier members vs what the vote wanted to have happen.

Now I don't have the number for how many votes get dusted away each day, but I am willing to bet it's more then 10,000 and probably more then 100,000. Would love to know this number!

Well, like they say: There's an app for that. Probably. My observation is that any new venture of the magnitude of Steemit is going to be flawed, is going to have challenges. That it has done so remarkably well is rather astonishing. Yes, there are some real challenges in addition to the piss vote issue that I hope will be addressed. What is cool though is that you and people like you are being responsible and participating in making change. That's a good thing. A very good thing.

What is cool though is that you and people like you are being responsible and participating in making change. That's a good thing. A very good thing.

Thank you! My focus has really become to help the minnows learn and grow. Between the posts I'm writing and the contest I run hopefully a few small fish are helped along the way.

Personally think that steemit has the potential to make a true impact in the lives of many people around the world. Not that it will become their full time jobs as this just isn't realistic expect for the elite few, but that it can help bring in a small income stream that will make their lives better. An extra $10 a week to many people would make a huge difference. Sounds crazy, but that can be the difference between eating or not for some families. Add in the personal benefits of building relationships with others and how that can effect your emotional state of mind and I think that steemit has great long term potential.

Yes there are flaws, but there is no such thing as a solution that makes everyone happy. Every good compromise will leave both sides feeling like they had to give up something, when both sides feel a little pain but are still happy enough you know it's the right solution.

Glad to make your acquaintance @thedarkhorse. I hope to see more of your work. Indeed, wouldn't it be grand if somehow Steemit could evolve to the point where those in very challenging circumstances could rise above simple survival. Perhaps the Manna crypto going around is a possibility. Blessings.

Good to meet you also. Manna crypto is interesting, but hard to picture it ever having value personally.

With my Pay It Forward Curation contest I think we can help a lot of people gain some needed exposure and increase their chances of improving their situations. We need more ways like this to get the content of new bloggers who are creating quality content in front of more people.

I also posted about this this week @thedarkhorse but I seem to have misled my followers. I will need to go and edit the post and recommend a 0.3C vote for comments.

In fact I wonder if it's even worth the "little" people voting on comments at all. As you say, maybe it would be better to stick to voting on posts.

I've reduced the number of votes I've been giving on comments and upped the votes I do give to a minimum of 0.2C but this seriously reduces my VP fast!

Seems like I'm going to have to have yet another rethink! &#128546

Thanks for the additional heads up!

IMO it's not worth little people to vote on comments at all. They need to save that voting power for posts where their vote will be counted as they normally break the 0.03 displayed vote.

Very good advice about no comment voting - takes the stress off too.

Once you have the SP to give a good comment vote it's worth it to reward those who engage IMO.

That's what I'm beginning to think too @thedarkhorse! I've been really surprised at just how quickly my VP goes down with 0.2C votes and I'm lucky enough to have a couple of delegations. Seems wrong though doesn't it. I want to encourage people to join the conversation!

Something to consider is using Steem-Bounty on your posts. Then if you upvote with even .005 to all comments they will split the bounty.

Thanks @thedarkhorse. I'll add it to my ever increasing list of things to look at. 😁

I am so glad that you posted this. When I first came on here, I was advised to only upvote comments since my vote wouldn'd be seen for sure on a post. Nobody told me about dust - I take that back, on person said so recently and I didn't believe it. So, I need to check how I am voting...

Seriously - this is a new wrinkle for me after 10 months here too!

I certainly wasted a lot of my voting power with good for nothing votes! Now, I am tempted to upvote my own comments if someone left me a 1 or 2 cent vote since they will not get any curation from their vote otherwise - and obviously, I will get nothing as well. So much to learn!!!

Oh wow, I'm glad you posted this. I'd seen some rumors via snippets on Ginabot but this is the first explanation I've read, and I'm so glad you didn't get crazy technical, so us non-techie types can understand. Thanks for doing those experiments, too!! Really helps us all out :)

Very happy to share my findings and it's great to know how many people found the info useful. The code isn't exactly easy to follow so trying to have people who don't know coding read it is pointless. Plus there aren't to many people that like math at the level that is needed to understand all of it.

I have realised this after I experimented for a while with the bots @banjo and @cleverbot.

Every comment they upvote is a waste of their voting power. These bots need to get a few more SP before they start working as their programmers intended.

I still use them to add two tiny votes to my main posts and increase their initial visibility but I still see that a lot of people keep draining these bots with comments that will be rounded down to zero.

In the end, it's a waste of people's time and Steem Network is being pounded with traffic for nothing.

For a small boost to your post it probably is a good way for newer members to get past the dust threshold.

Do you like him?

Hi, thank you kindly for the mention. :) Lynn mentioned to me that you would be writing a post on this too.

I'm happy to see that others are also sharing this knowledge. A lot of newbies don't realize their upvotes are going to dust. I have received comments stating that a 0.01 upvote on a comment will add up if someone else upvotes after them. Yes, the compounded value does count if it makes it past the 0.02 dust threshold.

My thoughts are, realistically, who would be kind enough to come behind and give that extra "push" on a comment to turn the 0.01 into a 0.02/0.03 worth? Many small fishes want to show the supporters that stop by their post an upvote, more as a thank you gesture. There are not too many individuals with SP that will visit a newbie's post and give that "extra" push to make their upvote count. I know many of us in the #newbieresteeemday community will show our help and support, but it does drain our VP too. Speaking for myself, that's a 30% VP usage. I try to encourage newbies to upvote a post instead or if they do want to upvote a comment, do so ONLY if they want the comment to go to the top so others can see the helpful comment. If I see a 0.01 upvote, I will add my own to make it past the dust threshold. There are not too many that will take that action.

It is important that we continue to spread awareness on the 0.02 dust threshold so users are knowledgeable and could use their upvotes wisely. I would recommend users not yet reaching that magical 0.02 dust threshold (0.03 to be safe) to use their VP on posts so there is a possibility of earning curation rewards. This way they could grow their account at the same time while still supporting their favorite authors.

Your post is encouraging the same behavior, we agree! :)

I had pushed a bunch of comments up to .02 after @timcliff's post and then noticed that the .02 didn't payout. So that is when I started doing some tests which lead to this post. Was really thinking it was just the weaker 0.02 displayed value comments that weren't paying out, but after testing as high as I could vote without hitting .03 and they didn't pay out I've decided that .03 is the current cut off.

Either way smaller members shouldn't waste their votes IMO.

Thanks for the diligence. I was completely unaware of the dust rule much less the .02 issue. The vast majority of people using Steemit do not want to be hassled by this level of detail and simply want the platform to work as would be expected. These details are the proverbial "fine print" that Steemit needs to expel from the system. Obviously Steem is an experiment that we want to see evolve into a well established long term platform accepted by the general public. Currently my max upvote is .02 and I'm a bit taken back by this info. That means it is a problem and it needs to be resolved. Little things like this can have huge negative repercussions on reputation of a product. Thanks!

Great post on a hot topic, but still less-than-understood.
I just reached 0.02 upvote threshold yesterday which excites me, but it's not enough to get out of the dust. Still, with the help of @asapers, @newbieresteemday, @yourluckyphotos and a few others, I'm getting a more solid following now and getting out of the dust on most posts now.

I was looking further into this last night and part of the issue is a vote worth 0.015-0.019 will round up on screen to 0.02 and look like a 2c vote when it really isn't.

Found out if you click on the link from steemd for when something is upvoted and scroll down towards the bottom it shows the current pending payout of that post/comment. Most important it shows 3 places after the decimal place (.015 for example).

Yes, I was vaguely aware of this, but hadn't looked into it further. Just like our SP is also rounded.

Thanks so much for explaining this further. It could be very tricky and frustrating for a newbie on this platform. My account was hacked the same day i signed up and with so many downvotes, I wanted to quit but i'm glad I stayed and finding helpful tips like this is also very eyeopening. ill join on of the recommended servers immediately. Thanks again

I hate the spammers and scammers of steemit! Well actually of everywhere online as the are everywhere. Sorry you had to deal with this.

You will gain so much from those discord rooms if you interact with people. Don't just drop a link in the promotion section and think it will do great things for you. Take some time and get to know those who hang out there and then when you post they are more likely to look at your posts in the promo section. Plus you will be more likely to pick theirs to read later so it's a win-win.

Thank you very much

How much steem power does it take to equal a three cent vote?

You can get there today with about 120 SP, maybe less as I didn't play with it to much. But on SteemWorld you can simulate your SP to see the effect of say leasing some SP or buying SP.

IMO it's worth spending some $ to get your account up to 500sp and having the slider bar for voting. You also have enough then to give some decent votes to people. Once I did this my level of engagement from others really increased.

First, thank you so much for responding. I have been wondering this for a while. I have had no luck finding information on my own, so you are a lifesaver! I only have a little money but I am going to put what I can to word buying SP. I've been trying forever to build it so that I can help other people with my vote like I see so many other people do here. I have to catch up with everybody who has replied before I can do it. But I I'm going to make it my next step afterwards, because of you. I would also like to thank you for all of your great posts that you put out. Such as this one about dust votes. Until we meet again my dear friend I send you and all of yours all of my love. And I asked that I were Creator bless yous.

I do not want to give up the gesture to say 'thank you' with my upvote. Especially if I do not answer a comment, from whatever reasons, it is my way of confirming that I have read it and I liked it. Because it's about the people, not the money ;)
And even if there is no payout, it is counted to the vest. (That's what I read).

@eonwarped do you know if the vests still count on dusted votes? I wouldn't think so, but you have a good handle on the code.

@psionic-tremors something that might make more sense is to reward the person with a vote on a blog post. Leave a quick note saying due to dust vote rules I have left an upvote on your most recent post so the vote counts vs leaving it here on the comment. Just something to consider.

Well vests are just what are attached to the post and are used to compute the rewards, so I suppose the short answer is no, there's nothing separate, dust is dust :(

Thanks that is how I assumed it would work, but figured best to call you in on it.

Yes that's a good way to do it :). Thank you for your food for thought!

Think there is a psychological benefit too. We all want to see out posts do good. A comment payout is always nice, but seeing our works have good results feels great!

Take a look at the comment from eonwarped above, vests don't count for dusted votes.

Ok thanks!! I got it ... no more dust votes ;))

I'm getting ready to release a post that has a link to this post. I'm doing it to try to help the new guys I got over at my place become more aware of how to effectively use their votes. I just had one question for you, and that is, is there someone I could refer them to specifically on your side here in case they have a question that I can't answer?
Oh and also I wanted to share this.
I scrounged up what money I could and got it to the bank. And then I turned it into SP.
Of course I can't take all of the credit, I am delegated some SP. But it made me feel so great, and I wanted to share it with you. I feel like I've gotten over my first real marker of being able to help people. Sorry if I already replied with a similar post, I have to do everything on my phone and it's not always that cooperative. It definitely has its own personality. 😁

Very cool! Love that you figured out how to get to a 3c vote!

You can send them to the Pay It Forward Discord channel:

If your penny vote and another penny vote together make a post $0.03, THEN does payout still happen?

Yes if votes total over the dust threshold then it will payout. So even if it takes 10 micro votes to reach 0.03 you will see a payout.

Well that's good!

For sure. If that wasn't the case it would be impossible for a smaller member to have any voice.

Well, I think that's not necessarily something the devs are as concerned as they should be about. But yes, thank heavens for small favors.

Great article @thedarkhorse. You did the calculating to what I was thinking. I upvoted 1 well I guess 2 posts one from @lynncoyle1 which stated it paid out .02. I just posted so I guess that would be 1 even though the pay out for that was .01 and I just now upvoted this one and it posted .00 I know my issue is SP it's just the getting there. I don't want to put anything into it until I can get it to at least 20.

With your current SP level your vote is always going to be dust unless it's stacked on top of other votes. This is fine as long as you understand it and use the votes where they will matter which most of the time will be on the post.

With the free SP you are getting there is no reason to power up until you can buy more then you currently get. That power goes away on a 1 for 1 basis. So if you power up 5sp you will loose 5sp in delegation.

Watch the market, you have a good amount of SBD. If SBD becomes higher priced then Steem convert it over and then power up. I've gotten 1.1-1.15 steem per sbd multiple times. Right now it's about 0.8 steem per sbd so it's a bad time to use SBD for powering up.

That's basically what I try to do. Yeah I want to upvote all the people through pay it forward, especially the ones I nominate :D I'll get there though. I guess. I'll just save up money and wait for SBD to drop again.

Great information thanks for sharing i have been upvoting comments with one and two pennies and now i will update it to .03!

I have been reading posts on this issue for days now but I don't get them. At least I can get some part of it. So, if your vote is less than 0.03 then it is put to dust. My voting power is low, so it's better if I vote only on bigger posts or posts that already have some amount in them. But voting on a comment is basically useless until you have 0.03 voting power.

Pretty much. Keep your votes at the vote level and leave the comments alone for now. Once you build up some steempower you can worry about rewarding those who interact with upvotes.

This is disappointing and the first time I'm hearing of this! I've been giving .02 on comments at 100% VP because I wanted to give them something. All of it was a waste! I never really paid attention to whether or not a .02 post paid out or not...guess I won't be upvoting comments anymore. Thanks for bringing this to light! :)

Now you have more VP to curate great posts! And it won't be long before your vote hits .03...keep plugging away.

On buggedout's comment I replied with an idea that might make sense until you hit .03. Take a look and let me know what you think.

It was so hard not to upvote your comment just now ergggg. This is going to take some discipline! I don't know about explaining to each person why I can't upvote their comment, I'd feel like a spammer having to type it over and over again. Maybe on my own posts I will mention ahead of time how I don't want to upvote comments at this time and why...

Not sure if you realize this, but your vote at 100% voting power is 0.04. You are just voting way to often and need to give your account a few day break to recover your voting power. Your at 58% and recover 20% a day if you don't vote so in 2 days your would be at 98%. Your voting power is something you really need to watch. My goal is to always stay over 90% as your vote value keeps decreasing the lower you go and again you are actually wasting some of the voting power you invested to gain. Thinking this needs to be a post as I'm seeing this on a lot of accounts.

Picture it this way, you invested enough SP to be able to give out 10 full 4c votes a day, but because your voting power is so low you are only giving 10 reduced value vote of 2c per day. That is 20c a day that you could be giving out that instead you are leaving in the reward pool.


This math is actually more complicated. Because you only use 2% OF YOUR REMAINING voting power, you actually aren't leaving anything in the voting pool. If you vote only 10 times a day, every day, even if you start at 1% voting power, you will eventually return to 100% voting power.

This is a common misunderstanding of VP recovery/use stats.

But, considering the dust problem, yes, if your 50% votes are below the threshold, don't bother.

Here's the article I wrote.

Fine now it's something else I will have to play I can't find a flaw in your post, but need to research it for myself to verify. Don't take offense to that, I can't help but to dive into something like this.

If this is correct then it kind of changes my thoughts on getting to the computer multiple times during the day to maximize my votes.

Please do! I feel extravagantly confident because all the disagreements have come from folks who FEEL like its wrong, but can give me neither math proofs nor experimental evidence that it is. It isn't. Man, I cannot get off my high horse!

But, since this whole dust thing is a little detail I hadn't seen before, I submit that my math could be based on a false premise of some detail in the whole shebang that I just don't know. Experimentation is a fun way to get at math proofs! If you do find it's wrong, we should both do some digging to figure out WHY.

Theories need to be proven in my mind. Guess that is why math always was so simple to me. The idea of proving something that other have already proven drives most people crazy. To me it only makes sense to verify the findings.

I will have to start playing with this week. Will let you know what I find.

BTW, if you on discord send me a message there. Same name as here #6765

The problem is I'm on @thealliance autovoter, the @curie autovoter, and another one, which I don't remember. Due to this, I'm always at 40-70%. I think I'll do some tweaking with them, and see if this improves. I didn't realize it would be that high at 100% though. Makes sense as although my current struggles suck, writing about them is making a lot more than I'm used to. I'm writing a post highlighting your article BTW! ;)

turn off the autovotes for 3 days and recover your voting power. Don't tweak them, just turn them off to until you get back to 98% as they will suck you dry again in no time.

Honestly I think vote trails are the biggest waste of voting power out there. You gain nothing from them as the author doesn't engage with you as you aren't leaving a comment, the curation claims as BS, and unless it means you are getting autovotes from the group in return there is just no point to them other then letting someone else run your account at which point why not just sell votes on smartsteem and get paid for those votes.

This is just my opinion and I'm sure others will disagree, but you are wasting a ton of money that could be given out daily to those you engage with and that support you for what?

Your voting power will serve you much better by investing it in the people who support your blog vs the masses.

Yeah, I'm just going to delete my participation for curie and the other one, as it's pointless. Voting at I think 20% on the alliance one, which is a lot, so I think if I lower it to 5%, and delete the other 2, I will see a big difference...
And when I'm back, I will upvote these comments lol! Can't get any delegations at this time because I need the sbd.

Mostly unrelated, but yay for Wisconsin! I grew up near West Bend. Where-ish are you located?

You also have a significant portion of your SP delegated out, I see. You could/should end that delegation. No sense delegating when you're struggling with VP issues, maybe?

To be in @thealliance, we are required to delegate 60 SP to @themothership upvote bot, which upvotes all the members. There's also the @a11y upvote bot too, but that one's voluntary.

oh and trust me I know it's hard not to vote on other people stuff...I give out a ton of votes. This is why I leased SP to be able to use steemit the way I want to without having to cut myself off.

What the hell!!!.
And here I was believing my 2 cent upvotes were making a difference. This changes my perspective on so many things.

I think I'm going to have to restrategize.

You have a good amount of SBD, consider leasing some SP. You wouldn't need to spend much to lease 120 SP for the next 8 weeks while building your account up. Personally 16 weeks ago I leased enough to break 500sp and haven't looked back. Now I'm leasing an extra 1000sp to really give my votes a boost. BTW, you aren't a 2c upvote so note sure if you actually thought you were or not, but as a new account you are a screen vote of 0c which is where we all start out so nothing wrong with it. Just invest some of your SBD to get your account up to a level that your vote counts.

I've considered leasing SP but haven't gone through with it. I'm also thinking of using my earnings to promote some of my posts.

I'm adopting the principles of minimalism and kaizen in building my account. I'm taking it slow and steady for now, but I'll eventually get to the point where I'm leasing some mad SP.

I've done the bid bot thing and you don't gain anything except a rep score you didn't earn and the loss of votes from some people who are very anti bid bot. Some of my biggest votes come from people who flat out told me I wouldn't get votes from them if I kept using bots. And I feel this anti bot movement is growing in power, so use at your own risk IMO.

The advantage of leased power is you get to use it to help others with larger votes and by doing so this more good things come back to you. Give and then receive. It took some serious back and forth conversations with @fitinfun before I bit the bullet and leased enough SP to get the slider bar. The math didn't make sense unless I was 100% self voting and I wasn't willing to do that. She kept telling me there are more benefits to having it then the rewards from my self votes. Sure enough she was right and now I really believe in leasing until you have enough SP to make a difference on a post without the lease.

Something else to strongly consider is sponsoring a few people for SteemBasicIncome (that's my review). With this you will earn lifetime votes and help someone else do the same. Pick someone that has helped you grow, or pick a couple of your most engaging followers (those who comment on your blogs), or someone like me who is just amazing for taking time with new people all day kidding.

I also don't believe in bid bots.
I prefer the post promoters eg minnowbooster, smartmarket, randowhale.
I'm aware of the politics surrounding the use of bots, but I might just play with them for a week or two to see how it goes.

I've looked into steembasicincome but haven't had the time to buy any shares. Maybe sometime in the future.

Wait... what's the difference between bidbots and post promoters?

Bid bots work like auctions. Let's say a bot has a 100% upvote worth $100, and 50 people bid for it. The vote worth will be shared among the bidders based on how much they bid.

Eg. A bot has a $100 upvote and 5 people make equal bids. The 5 will get an upvote worth $20 each.

Post promoters on the other hand work via multiplication. Let's say the bot has a return rate of 2.2x.

If you send $1, you'll get an upvote worth $2.2.

That's the major difference between the two.

Thanks for the heads up on this. I've been here for long enough to know this, but it seems I've been burning a fair bit of my VP on upvoting my commenters with small votes. So much for encouraging engagement!

Something to consider, but it takes a bit longer to do. If a comment is really worthy of an upvote leave a note that you visited their blog and left a vote on one of their posts as your vote isn't enough on a comment to go above the dust vote threshold and then link them to a post explaining this threshold. Odds are you will be educating them and you will be giving their blog a boost which everyone loves seeing.

As a minnow.. I found this post very informative. I am still trying to understand the whole system and this helped! Thank you for your efforts.

Edit.. my post was worth 1 cent! YOU BETTER PUT IT TO GOOD USE! :D

You had 2 posts currently under the dust threshold so I upvoted both of them to make sure they pay out.

Thank you! Every little bit helps toward future projects!

LOL...don't upvote my comments! I know it's a thank you type vote but I'd rather you invest that upvote into a post somewhere so it will be paid out. You aren't giving a ton of money with your vote, but it's something and those somethings really add up at the post level as they stack together.

Yeah I figured my power was already low, it was at 70% so it wasn't doing much at all... or am I seeing that incorrectly? I try to vote only when my power is over 90% as it seems to be the only time my vote pays someone.

If a vote displays 0.00 it doesn't mean that it's not paying something.

here is what effect your vote had on this comment:

If you near the bottom you will see:

Capture 10.PNG

Which shows your vote was worth .003 SBD which on it's own will get dusted away. But stacked on top of other votes has meaning...even if it's a small amount these add up.


I try to understand what this all means. I resteemed your post and need to read it again. I think it's useless for me to vote then. not sure where to find what my vote is worth.
I also wonder where all those votes/pay outs of 0.01 en 0.02 stay. All togetherit has to be a gigant amount. The only thing I was told was to vote, no matter if your vote is wortless.
What is an active post? Not older as 6 days?

Keep your votes at the main post level and on posts that are under 7 days.

Thanks for this heads up @thedarkhorse!
When I first read tim's post, I made note of the 2 cents issue, but it really didn't register with me about the whole situation. I mean surely something this important would be common knowledge all over SteemitLand, right?

I was experiencing cognitive dissonance first hand.
Wikipedia says...

Cognitive dissonance
In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort experienced by a person who simultaneously holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values.

I read the code in Tim's article, but did not accept it.
I even watched a few rewards showing 1 penny payout, not pay out.
Hmm, something's not right about all this...
Then, I read @beeyou's post and it clicked. I accepted the sad but true fact that I (and untold others) had been wasting a ton of my (our) votes.

  • Once I was able to accept the truth, the mental discomfort went away. I still did not like the truth, but sometimes you just have to say it is what it is and move on with life.
    • So, until my vote was worth 2 cents I would no longer make a lone upvote. If I see someone who has voted and it's only at 1 penny, I will upvote my penny to make it 2 cents so everyone wins.
      • Then along comes your study shedding even more truth on the subject. So now I have to rethink again and work hard for my lone vote to be worth 3 cents.
  • There's 2 ways to look at life.
    • My efforts are wasted, so I"ll stop trying.
    • My efforts have been wasted, so I will double my efforts to reach a point where my efforts will be rewarded.
      • I opt for the 2nd choice.

My efforts have been wasted, so I will double my efforts to reach a point where my efforts will be rewarded.
I opt for the 2nd choice.


But also keep in mind that your vote does stack with others so when you are voting on the main level of a post odds are your vote matters even until you reach .03

There's a third way, which is, I will band together with my fellows and topple the aristocracy!

I'm not entirely sure how we can do that, but the first step is the banding, even if they stopped printing that ability after Ice Age.

Well there you have it! You know me and numbers, so I'm asking @abh12345 to comment on your mention of what witnesses may be capable of. As you know, he and @paulag are @steemitcommunity (witness), so maybe we can get someone else's 2 cents worth too ;)