Simple test for right vs wrong on the steem blockchain... there is more to it than "the code is law".

in #steemit7 years ago (edited)


We have a number of problems that have popped up during the life of this new adventure that the steem blockchain has introduced. Mostly we are able to solve them as a community. There is a common thing that will occur when what some view as an "exploit", bad P.R., etc occurs. Inevitably someone will point out "the code allows it". Some may fall back to the original white paper, and the crab bucket analogy in the white paper is a particularly popular one to reference.

First, Dan Larimer is a man. He is not omniscient and having spoken to him several times he is also humble enough he never would claim to be. He designed the code the best he could at the time. The team has continued to do the same. They are not gods. They are not omniscient. They are not actually super human in any way. They are people like you, and I, though with their own set of skills. They write the code as best they can, but they cannot foresee every eventuality. They write a white paper that describes what they envision as best as they can at the time. They are not forming a religion and some holy text. While the blockchain itself is intended to be immutable the white paper, and the code are not necessarily meant to be immutable.

I do know the hope was that for most problems the community could solve those problems via consensus. I might be becoming more of an idealist all of the time. I optimistically think we can solve most of the problems.

I guess I came up with a litmus test the other day without realizing it. @lukestokes actually pointed it out as a simple solution. It actually is.

When we encounter a problem there is a simple test in the form of a simple question that we can ask that I think will let us know whether the activity is good or bad.

If that activity were to be done by EVERYONE would this project survive?

A recent one was a good example of that. With HF19 we had less votes, but they were worth a lot more. Some people took it upon themselves to up vote their own COMMENTS (not just their posts) with 100% or large amounts of their steem power. It was not a matter of simple visibility. It was very noticeable if they engaged in back and forth dialog with people as they'd tend to up vote their own replies and you'd notice each vote dropping a little in value as they burned through their voting power. It was noted that some of these people don't even up vote the original post, they focus on just themselves.

They of course have the standard "It is my steem power, I should be able to vote how I want", or perhaps "It is not wrong because the code allows it".

My question of "What would happen to steem, steemit, etc if all of us did it?" resolves this conundrum quickly.

This project would fail. The value of steem would decline and there would be those that pulled flesh from its corpse as it died in the form of up voting their own comments.

This is not the only case where that question is useful. I believe it is a simple enough one to help a person decide whether the action is good or bad when it comes to the steem blockchain ecosystem.

I believe we all want this new world we are exploring to not only survive but to flourish. This means our decisions also need to be weighed in terms of their impact upon the survival and growth of this adventure.

I never had a problem with people up voting their own posts. I also didn't have a problem with people spending a few cents to up vote their comments for visibility. That isn't what people were doing that started off this latest conflagration.

"Code is Law" can easily become dogmatic and religion. "White Paper" is the bible also makes it very religious. Neither of these things are immutable. They were simply the foundation upon which things began.

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I had to look twice at your picture, I thought it was my neighborhood church... it is not...

On topic: upvoting is the glue in this experiment. Without the reward it brings, this would be another reddit. It has to work otherwise it will be a minority collecting worthless tokens for themselves. Which eventually will lead to failure. Because the platform is unsustainable without growth. And growth is only possible with the proper incentives. HF 19 marked the start of incentivized egotistical behavior and I think it is the beginning of the end if something is not done to make new users thrive. I don't believe the various 'whale-upvote" services that has popped up to "help" new users is anything but the first nail in the coffin for steemit.

Well fortunately the people doing the negative things are a small minority, and they are losing followers and support. I've heard the "nail in the coffin" thing many times in the over year I've been here and it just gets stronger. The community tends to mobilize and the problems seem to mostly go away or come in cycles, even WITH the problems there is no other platform of social media that comes close to it. I do not see us being anywhere near close to nail in coffin... However, if EVERYONE acted like these small minority of jerks then YES it would fail.

Which is exactly my point. Steemit allows for centralization of power and I think that if it does not get better, I'll be gone within a year. Simply because I think it eventually will be too top heavy.

That actually seems to be slowly getting better than it was. Before HF19 the top heavy aspect was far more extreme and that has been for most of it's life. And yes, you can be gone... back to somewhere that you get nothing.

I choose to try to look at the positives rather than the negatives, but I will talk about the negatives still if I think we as a community can do something about them.

Even with the negatives this place is WAY cooler than any other community I've found. Now if people DO focus too heavily on the money side it can get pretty frustrating, so I just quit focusing on that and let what happens happen. I had many posts I busted my ass on that made $0. I've had some do pretty well, and for awhile I was doing about 10% of whatever a trending post was, lately I've been less than that, but I don't really care.

I get something for my time, even if it is only a little bit. That is not something I can claim anywhere else. We've had people come here from youtube and do comparisons and they are actually make way more here than they were from youtube.

Is it sustainable? I don't know... there has never been anything like this. The currency is backed by our creations and linked to them. That potentially makes it very valuable.

They haven't even BEGUN to advertise this yet. They have things they want to work out in terms of scalability before advertising so I do think this could become quite huge. It's been incredibly lucrative for me and I just put in time and effort and try to support the community.

@dwinblood as usual you've cut right through the BS smoke and given a simple standard to measure against,

What would happen to steem, steemit, etc if all of us did it?

I've never read the whitepaper, never talked to Dan and I probably don't need to. I don't want to game the system, I just want a place where I can find interesting people that I can exchange information and ideas with.

Hey, I can earn something too.

To some degree I think we each have to decide what is honorable and responsible on this platform. Hopefully the majority does the right thing. I think it's interesting especially because we have here a social blogging platform for some but an investment for others. This is new territory in a lot of ways and like some Asimov laws, we're kind of making it up as we go along. For instance I have delegated Steem Power free of charge before and now have started auctioning it off to members who can be more active than I typically can. If I auction off to someone who is really good for the community then I've added value by providing them even more incentive to comment, create and upvote. However, if the user just upvotes himself all day long just to earn a profit then I'd rather not loan out Steem Power to that user any more. Isn't the new landscape exciting? To boldly go.. but as you often point out we must be ready to seriously discuss the issues before they become even bigger issues.

I agree. That reminds me of "Curating". Do you know how I curate? If I see something I like I up vote it and support it. I stopped looking at HOW many people voted on it, etc. I don't think dog piling posts is actually beneficial to the platform. It is a way if you time it right to maximize curation rewards, but I actually view curating and supporting stuff that I enjoy and like as being a better long term reward.

Exactly. Upvoting content we think is good for the platform should be the default mode. Curation rewards will follow but shouldn't be the aim.

the cartoon of u looks like jerry Garcia. or to me at least.
:D

Hehhe... I've heard that before. I never thought of that until someone pointed it out. I was not a big fan of the Grateful Dead, but yeah I can get a bit of that look. When I don't get a haircut for awhile and let my beard run wild I tell people I look like Santa Claus and Einstein had a baby.

LOL!
The mental image of santa and Einstein making a baby hurt.

i need to make a cartoon version of me so people can tell me who i look like now.

enjoyed reading the post.
gotta run and make some food for dinner.
cheers!

:D
i usta do a lot of rotoscoping. send me a pict and ill try and cartoon it.

You are invoking Kant's universality. I never thought Kant practical, but in this circumstance, Kant's ethics may be eminantly applicable. I think Kantian ethics are good in prohibiting actions, but fail when it comes to commanding ethical actions.

commanding ethical actions.

Yeah I am against COMMANDS. I don't endorse force. So that was an interesting reply you gave there. I talk about force, choice, etc often but I haven't really remembered the word "command" or "commanding" in my posts. I usually refer to RULES, LAWS, etc. I totally forgot about commands so thank you for reminding me of an important word. :)

I guess the use of rules (regulations) have assumed within it the concept of "command" or "force." I think there is a subtle difference between regulation and law; regulations command action, while laws prohibit action. I am of the thought that unenforceable laws are not laws and impracticable regulations are no regulations.

Most of the programmers fall for this fallacious mindset, as I've encountered myself in trying to deal with the flag issue: Community Decisions to Establish Rules vs. "It's in the Code = LAW", and the Battle for Decentralization

Whitepaper this, whitepaper that... the code says this, code says that... I have not met so many left-brain imbalanced people in one place as I did here on Steemit. They are incapable of honest thinking to understand what is better. They are locked in static, fixed mindsets that can't see what's better. It's really sad. Stuck to perpetuate flawed starting points because they are attached to fallacious thinking. Nothing can change to be better because it's in the Bible Whitepaper of in the code. Forget thinking deeper and evolving past flawed desgins... LMAO! All they want to do is stay stuck in crap and be focused on their own personal gains and short-term vision.

Yep. I've seen this my entire life. You see one of my strongest and earliest skill sets is actually programming. :) I started in 1982 when I was 12 and had spent thousands of hours doing it before I even was in college.

I've encountered and LEAD many programmers. I've seen how fixated they can get on "their way". The funny thing is that Dan Larimer is not like this, those stating "code is law" about his code are not even him. Those treating the White Paper like a bible, again that is not him.

So some programmers DO get it. They just are in a minority.

Yeah, i learned programming, helps in logic, but I didn't treat it like "God"... code can change and improve, not static fixed unchanging, we fucking made it! We can change it!

That is a simple and excellent test! Well said!

I actually read a pretty inspiring post that lead to me not upvoting my posts anymore

https://steemit.com/steemit/@anomadsoul/why-should-you-stop-voting-for-your-own-posts-from-one-minnow-to-another

I have seen a lot of people who make valuable content and comments who are upvoting their own comments, so I think it is not just a simple character flaw. I mean auto-vote on your posts is active by default, so why would it be immoral to not vote for yourself?

I actually do not see any good reason why people should be allowed to vote for themselves so I would not mind to see them hardfork it out, if that is even possible. Of course it would be a great proof that anarchy can work if we solve the problem by convincing the people.

I actually think the etiquette of Steemit is very badly explained. There are surely a lot of great posts that offer guidelines to new users, but that is not something new users will read/find when they arrive at the platform.

I mean auto-vote on your posts is active by default, so why would it be immoral to not vote for yourself?

It was. It is now off by default.

I actually do not see any good reason why people should be allowed to vote for themselves so I would not mind to see them hardfork it out

Easy to get around. The worst offenders have multiple accounts, and if they don't they can have multiple accounts if they want them. Then they just vote themselves from other accounts.

sure there are ways around it, but it would at least show the people that by law/code it is not intended. I think comparing the code to the law is not a bad analogy at all, at least if we want our social rules to be formed volunterily as an etiquette.

I think the code is just modeled to strong according to the real world democratic voting. I always cringe when politicians are making a big event out of going to the election to vote for themselves.

Upvoted and also resteemed!

upvoting thyself is not in my league. I see it to be self serving.

I don't have a problem with people serving themselves SOME. The problem began when people were taking that to excess. Comments were before that up vote a couple of cents to move it up in visibility, and that usually wasn't bad. I actually remember the first time comment up voting brought a distaste. A very powerful individual before HF19 was down voting people to "protect the reward pool". Then I noticed him up voting some of his own comments by like $8. That certainly was not protecting the reward pool. It was the hypocrisy in that action that brought it to my attention. I and others called him out on it and he stopped. He DOES have steemit as an interest at heart, I just don't think he seriously thought it through.

After HF19 we saw a ton of people up voting themselves more than that. I witnessed some guy debating with me where we had quite a lengthy discussion. His initial comment he up voted was around $3 all from himself. By the end he was somewhere around $1.30 and I figure he easily had up voted himself in the neighborhood of $30 just on comments talking to me. The funny thing is it was a capitalism vs communism debate and he was the pro-communist guy talking about how capitalists just consolidate wealth and feed upon people. It ended when I pointed out what he had been doing. He also muted me after that. ;)

Yet I also think people have a right to serve themselves some as well. There should be no guilt in a person helping themselves. The key is that they need to consider if what they are doing is something everyone did would it crash the system, ruin it, etc.

People have been up voting their own POSTS (not comments) all along until a week or so ago when that being the default was changed. It didn't really hurt the platform at all.

The rampant impact of self voting people's own comments didn't really kick in until HF19. Though prior to that there were people recommending it to new people in tutorials. I even did it for a few weeks when I first started (over a year ago) due to one of those tutorials. Then I found out about voting % and realized that by voting my own comment I was diluting my voting power which made me less able to support content I liked by other people and encourage the growth of the platform. So I stopped voting my comments due to that reason. Yet that was also still self serving. I can serve myself while still helping the platform. I love this place and I want it to grow so even though I help the platform to me that is still self serving, as I am doing what I want for a place I care about. Basically what I'm getting at is self serving is not always bad. It CAN BE, but I wanted you to know that some amount of self interest is good and is part of survival.

It's when we let our self interest drag everyone else down and don't give a shit about it that it becomes a bad thing. And yes there are degrees. Though I don't believe anyone has the right to tell you what those degrees are. That's totally up to you. ;)

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