Do you want the platform to be friendly to dolphins and minnows? Then @smooth and @abit are not your enemy!

in #experiment7 years ago (edited)

One of the main complaints that I hear from users about the platform is the unfair distribution of stake. The impression from pretty much every new users that I talk to is that the site is just about earning whale votes. The interactions and votes that you get from all the 'regular users' don't matter. It is a small fraction of the community that decides what gets rewarded vs. what doesn't for everyone else. Is that the platform we want?

Users have been crying out for a solution to this since before I joined the platform. @abit and @smooth finally did something about it.

You may disagree with their method, but they are doing what whales are supposed to do with their stake. They are using it to direct the platform towards what they feel is best.

This decision must not have been easy. It was not selfish. They are going against the grain of the platform. They are sacrificing their own curation rewards that they could be getting by just continuing to upvote content. They are making a lot more enemies than friends.

The main issue that people have with the 'experiment' is their method. It requires them to downvote in order to cancel out the votes of whales that are refusing to participate.

I think the community has an important decision to make. Do we want the platform to continue to be run by the whales, or do we want the votes of regular users to matter? Do we want a $100 investment in SP to boost your voting power, or do we want to restrict that to the users that are willing to buy $10,000 worth?

If you agree with the goal, but not the downvotes - then you have a different set of whales to complain about. Go talk to the ones who keep upvoting!

Here is a list of whale participation based on voting behavior:
The "Whale No Vote" Experiment - Whale Participation Data

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It is a small fraction of the community that decides what gets rewarded vs. what doesn't for everyone else. Is that the platform we want?

Umm... Isn't that exactly what's happening right now? There are essentially two whales telling everyone how voting should be taking place and deciding on what gets rewarded.

I'm sure that was an innocent oversight on your part.

Those whales are not deciding what gets rewarded, the majority of the people do. They do not rewards anyone specifically.
They downvote so that the 99% can decide what gets rewarded. You may not like the way it's being done but that's not a reason to spread misinformation on what this experiment actually achieves.

Edit: also stop using your clients's accounts to skew public opinion, man up!

So, you still don't know how the platform works? I'm so shocked right now.

Edit: also stop using your clients's accounts to skew public opinion, man up!

You think vote totals "skew public opinion?" See my previous question.

And don't worry about what I'm doing with my trail. It's an experiment. Maybe I'll tell you about it in a few days.

You think vote totals "skew public opinion?"

Of course it does, it makes it look like a lot of people agree with your post when in fact it's only a few people.

So, you still don't know how the platform works? I'm so shocked right now.

That's all you have to say to defend yourself..lol

And don't worry about what I'm doing with my trail. It's an experiment. Maybe I'll tell you about it in a few days.

please don't go full troll..never go full troll

Of course it does, it makes it look like a lot of people agree with your post when in fact it's only a few people.

Do you say the same thing about the votes on posts? That the vote total "skews public opinion" about trending content?

That's all you have to say to defend yourself..lol

There isn't much more that needs to be said.

please don't go full troll..never go full troll

I have to keep up with you somehow. But who says that's "trolling?" Are you not aware of my experiment? I announced it a few days ago. Maybe you shouldn't make assumptions like Tim does?

There are more than 2 whales that are participating and in support of the change, and they are not telling everyone how they should be voting. Also, I know I don't need to tell you this but whales are allowed to use their SP to cancel out the votes of other whales.

Also, I know I don't need to tell you this but whales are allowed to use their SP to cancel out the votes of other whales.

Wow, really? Thanks for letting me know!

Also, I know I don't need to tell you this, but I never said these whales couldn't use their SP how they want. That's just you making assumptions yet again.

Then there is nothing wrong with this experiment, yes?

The whales are each deciding what to do with their stake.

If your issue is with them telling other whales what to do with their stake - there is nothing wrong with that either. I can tell you what to do with yours - it is entirely up to you if you want to listen.

If we disagree on how stake should be used, then we each get to cast our votes and the ones with more SP wins.

Everything that is being done with the experiment is well within the rules of the platform. Is it not?

Everything that is being done with the experiment is well within the rules of the platform. Is it not?

Yes. Have I said that it wasn't? More assumptions on your part.

Then there is nothing wrong with this experiment, yes?

There is plenty "wrong" with it. Many people have pointed out the many issues with it, including myself. Maybe you've missed all of those blogs and comments as well?

Regardless of what we may think of it, the whales can certainly do what they want with their stake. That doesn't mean that what they're doing is "good." You seem to confuse criticism of ideas and "experiments" as an argument that people cannot use their stake however they wish. Try reading and comprehending first, before making incorrect assumptions all the time. That would be better for discussions, yes?

Is it not the point of strong criticism to sway opinion in order to affect change which prevents some from doing as they wish?
So is it fair to equate timcliff's grasp of the bigger picture with making assumptions?
P.s. You sound incredibly patronising and passive aggressive because your responses are dripping with sarcasm, (you are only impressing stupid people.)

they are dictating that the majority gets to decide not the ultra-wealthy

its a paradox don't say which takes away more power just enjoy the outcome

You are right. It's very unfair, see my case please. I do not know who to talk to...

https://steemit.com/steemit/@tincho/i-m-really-angry-with-smooth

Here smooth flag me, when I raise $1.5!!!!! Is that just right? I deserve that flag?

https://steemit.com/spanish/@tincho/mi-mama-se-creo-una-cuenta-en-steemit-2

There are post that collect $ 100, $ 150. And do not receive any flag, please explain to me why my post that I collect $ 1.5 receives a flag. Does it really seem fair to you? @timcliff

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Well said and good point.

I think I'll be buying some STEEM and powering up later tonight!

I've never done either before.

I bought 10btc worth yesterday - got some at the bottom of the dip.

But I didn't make money on the rise - I powered it all up! Go Steem!

Long live STEEM, thanks for investing!

I guess I should follow you then!

Yes, I spoke to smooth. He feels that for steem to rise, obviously the community needs to grow, and if minnows and dolphins have votes that actually carry weight, it stands to reason that it would be more appealing for people to be here, producing and engaging. He's more than willing to sacrifice rewards in the short term towards this aim, and he feels those that are opposed to this are being short sighted.
Of course I understand why everyone (including me) was upset the first day or two having absolutely no idea what was going on, only that their posts were suddenly being downvoted by whales. But by now most people have been clued in I would imagine. As soon as I understood it I made a post that we needed to stop complaining and start making this experiment work for us, use our newfound voting strength to vote on the content we like and make a difference. And I have certainly seen a difference--I just added eight cents to this post :)
steemit is one big experiment in and of itself, why shouldn't people experiment within it to see what works best?
Thank you Tim for being a voice of reason and encouragement!

Welcome :)
Well said - I totally agree!

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It makes me sad that the people who care the most about the community are being voted out of the witness list. The experiment has only had positive effects so far, sure some people have had their rewards reduced but it is for the benefits of the majority and we've seen everyone benefits from it one way or another. Blockchains are valuable because they empower people the more they do the more valuable they are, the fact that a few people control everything on steem makes it a worthless blockchain.
I am seriously questionning the security of steem to protect the interest of the majority if people like smooth and abit are being voted out. I think we need to start a petition or something to make sure they stay on that list, these guys have done far more for the community than most in the top 20.

Interesting angle, though smooth and abit still in top 19 (smooth just about) so doesn't look like any un-voting has had much effect.

Last I checked abit was first on the list and smooth 7 or 8. Now they are 18 and 19 so they are clearly on the way out..it's sad.

Ah, I didn't look recently before a few minutes ago. Have we got graphs for this?

I don't know but it would be interesting to have something where we can look activity for witness votes.

Also what do you think of @klye 's recent post?

It's been common knowledge for a while that Steemit Inc has the power between all the developer accounts to basically hand pick who ends up in the Top 19. [...] Seems the old boy mentality is still very much alive and well here in regards to STEEM's DPOS system which relies on votes of peers to propel witnesses up the list. The guys who got into witnessing on the network early will knowingly manipulate the list to include their allies and friends over up and comers like myself.

Founded?

Klye apparently supported steemit inc hardfork and got voted out of the list so I don't think he got voted out by steemit devs, not for this reason anyway.

It looks like it had nothing to do with that. There is clarification in the comments of the thread.

There's a lot of missing data here to propose only two sides to this die.

A certain number of whales got together and dictated how things would proceed. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea. It does mean that it was dictated and pursued regardless of how anyone else might feel about it.

There were certain criteria that seemed apparent when they started, but after a bit those obviously became more subjective to at least a couple of whales.

At least one whale was getting payout from his posts stating that he was downvoting in order to reduce payout.

From what I've seen and heard, most people seem to think it was a great idea. Execution was terrible. Lack of inclusion was terrible. Consistency was terrible. Downvoting new users into watermarks was terrible.

The community in general seems to see it this way. Most that I've talked to agree that it's a good idea. Almost all of them resent being experimented on like some GI.

I agree with the goal. And I would agree with the downvotes if the parameters had been shared and followed consistently. They clearly were not shared and consistency seems to indicate that if any were laid out, they were treated as suggestions.

I do not agree with seeing people work hard only to end up on the whale experimentation table. It's wrong in more ways than I care to take the time to even try to list.

I agree that the communication and roll-out were terrible. There are humans behind the accounts though, and from what I understand they are doing the best that they can. It was a bumpy take-off, but as they continue they are ironing out more of the kinks.

Of course, understood.

There were many more humans behind the accounts adversely affected. How many will never come back? How many are ready to throw in the towel now?

I'm not one of those people, obviously. But I try hard to help those people. This has crushed moral for a huge portion of the users here.

Unfortunately, independent of the experiment - users do need to understand that the "pending rewards" are not 'theirs' and they can go up and down until the payout period is over. I think a lot of this is lack of education, which I am trying to help with (see post). While it is unfortunate that some users have been upset and even left over this, it should not stop us from making the hard choices that are needed to advance the platform forward.

You know I respect you a lot Tim. At least I hope so. On this one, I see you as very myopic.

First, we agree that it was a good experiment, in terms of goals. And it may have accomplished them for now. It seems like it.

Second, there's no way to defend how it was executed. It was absolutely terrible. There's no excuse for it whatsoever, other than excessive pride perhaps. This isn't about education. It's about treating people like human beings rather than lab rats.

Hard choices need to involve the community, rather than dictators. I heard one very well respected member of this "community" expressing how much like the fascism of his country this looks like. Decentralized? Community?

Also note that you have never heard me dog the actions of witnesses or whales on this platform, ever. I've never gotten worked up over all the shenanigans and nonsense that happens here. It's their vote to do with as they please.

I don't like drama and I try to stay out of it. It's generally pointless. And, in light of recent actions, it seems pretty apparent that this discussion is pretty pointless, because those who have the power to do so will prod the cattle and behave however they want, regardless of how wicked that may be.

Having said that, I do not know abit. He may be a great guy (or she may be a great gal, for all I know). And I have immense respect for Smooth. He's done some fantastic work here. We all blow it sometimes. They blew execution epically. Not every experiment that achieves its goals is successful. And we can't discuss how others were affected callously like mongers discussing collateral damage as they move battle toys on their maps of war. These are people. Put yourself in their shoes. Feel what they felt.

Ironically, the goal of all this is to give control of the platform to the actual users. There was a lot of room for improvement with the rollout and implementation, but most likely there was not going to be a way to get to the destination without the downvotes.

I won the whale vote contest - watch out! Good things coming!

I won the whale vote contest - watch out! Good things coming!

wow! thank you for speaking out my voice! :) I feel sad to see so many good writers feeling sad but meanwhile I don't quite agree with them. I couldn't help wondering if everything being transparent is really the best way for a human society? No answers.
By the way, my spare money had long been squandered on expensive Steems already. If I am to buy more, my wife will find out. See? transparency!? ... no, no, no ... :)

Finally, a new breath! A hope for many steemians!

I don't know how to say this, but I always agree with @abit and @smooth methods because they know a lot about steemit platform and they were here since ever, plus people forget about how many times and how much money they give away back in the good days. Now they are complaining about few flags? Lol, I wish I make $100 and get flagged to $50! I don't know how is to make so much and I don't really care because the main goal is in the future!
@timcliff, you are one of my witnesses I vote for! Cheers!

Thanks @the-future! I appreciate it. Totally agree regarding your sentiment. @abit and @smooth are leaders that are taking selfless actions to do what they feel is in the best interest of the platform/community. I commend and respect them for what they are doing!

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