"These Idiots..."
On Facebook recently I saw someone comment "these idiots" on some random post, and it got me thinking.
If you have a strong opinion about a hotly debated topic, and you're convinced those with an opposing view are "idiots," it's likely you don't understand their perspective well or you don't understand them as individuals with experiences which have led them to their currently held view.
Make an argument.
Defend it with reason, logic, and evidence.
We learned as kids name-calling is childish so let's be adults now. Those who have changed their minds because of good arguments understand how this works. Yes, having changed your mind, you may feel silly for a little while, but you're also humbled by how many other strong views you have which may not have been very well supported.
You begin to value epistemology more.
You're a little slower to claim you're "absolutely sure."
You're more open to correction.
Essentially, you work a little harder to avoid someone thinking you are the "idiot" next time.
I posted about this idea in great detail a year ago, and I'm thinking about it again with all the polarized discussions I'm seeing online. This post seems more relevant than ever:
We Disagree. Are You Ignorant, Immoral, or Stupid?
If you have the time, check it out and let me know what you think.
This reminded me of a quote (don’t remember from where):
"I have my opinions, Don’t confuse me with Facts and Logic !!”
Hehehe... people just think that their opinions are truth and others are wrong/idiots : -)
Hahah... that's a great quote. Sure feels like that sometimes in discussions today. Often I want to be like, "Do you even reason, logic, and evidence, bro?"
Jumping to conclusion (opinion) is a System-1 activity which requires less energy than System-2 activity ! These terms are from Dan Kahnemann’s Book : Thinking fast and slow :-)
One of my favorite books of all time. I use that same explanation often.
Mine too !! After reading that book, it really felt that it should be taught in Under Graduate School... so much of useless crap was there... hahaha... they should at least teach something useful like this :-)
I felt like it was a manual for how the human brain works. So good.
If we all agreed all the time, the world would still be flat. Some really thought provoking conversation is really trying to understand someones opposite opinion.
Some would argue, that's the only way we actually gain information: engage with those who think differently than ourselves. :)
& some would argue just for the sake of arguing! Love the forward thinking and quality conversations going on here!
Couldn't agree more with this.
Right on. I avoid these terms like the plague until someone jumps the shark first. If that's what the conversation is going to devolve to, I'll just make my peace with it and leave.
Well, most of the time. Sometimes I do troll people, but only if they have it coming to them :D
I see trolling as a wasteful activity. There are far more productive forms of entertainment out there, IMO. We all have it coming to us on some level or another.
To each their own. Like I said, I reserve trolling for the the trolls. It may not be productive, but it's fun to poke fun at them sometimes.
But they like it! That's what makes them trolls!
Don't feed the trolls!
Heheh.
Polarization.
I remember having a discussion-- very civilized-- about 12 years ago with a group of people from very different backgrounds, with very different viewpoints. One of the conclusions we came to is that we seem to live in a world that's increasingly dominated by the "shrill voices of the extremes," while most of more moderate perceptions are overlooked or thought "not important" because their approach lack the power to galvanize people into action. As I said, that was 12 years ago.
So here we sit now, and polarization of more of an issue than ever... and it seems to be more and more like the worm Ourobouros, biting its own tail. Discussion and debate more frequently reduced to name calling and mud slinging. And I find myself worried that I am "guilty" as well, because I increasingly wear out from trying to maintain some kind of... "civic stamina" to intervene in these forceful name calling contests. And so, I watch the extremes grow louder.
Idiots! Immoral! Ignorant! Stupid!
There's something "more" there... this subtext that it's no longer enough to simply "have an opinion," but more and more people are on the slippery slope to "Me, having my opinion precludes you having the right to yours-- IF it is different from mine!"
Sometimes it's really hard work NOT being "the idiot."
Great post... and good questions for our times.
Thanks for chiming in. I always appreciate your comments. I agree, there is quite a bit of polarization going on. I wonder if people are overly sensitive to their opinions being attacked because it's so much harder to be "sure" about anything these days. There's so much information available online and most people don't have the time to do all that much research so it's very threatening to be told, "No, actually, you're wrong."
It's easier just to shout someone down than it is to read scientific papers, history books, and listen to lectures to have a well-supported argument.
It's extremely rude as well as ignorant to revert to name-calling merely because you do not agree with someone else! An old saying still stands today that when you're pointing a finger at someone, do not forget that there's three fingers pointing back at you!
That's a classic. I wish there was some way we could update it for the modern, digital world.
I don't know. I've got nothing. heheh.
Labels are easy. Discussion is harder.
Unfortunately, the climate in this country right now makes it all too common for people to label each other idiots rather than talk through differences. I don't see that changing any time soon.
What do we do about the people who are Absolutely Right. The ones who are never wrong, unless there's a but attached to it. The people who never make mistakes. Im not sure how to interact with them. The most valuable lessons I learn are by making mistakes.
Until we all learn we aren't perfect, discussion and compromise become awfully hard to accomplish.
Of course the other solution is to dump Facebook. LOL
I found this lecture helpful on that topic "Dealing with unchangeable minds":
Some won't like this at all though since it may go against their religious views. So... yeah. Hard to please everyone. And yes, sometimes it's better just to say, "This person isn't worth interacting with anymore" and find other interesting people who are.
sounds good.
BUT.
after doing what you said...to NO effect.
(flat earthers for example....moon hoax...yadda yadda)
to no avail?
Whatcha gonna do?
(I mute them...I don't have time for idiots)
and everything is a false flag attack by the government..
Everything! Even the breakfast I had this morning! It's all a conspiracy!!!
(I really need a sarcasm font)
Well, I at least try to understand why they are so sure of themselves. It helps me understand humanity and myself more.
once..twice...ten times..maybe...
there comes a point..
when I do NOT suffer fools gladly.
idiots.
That is one of my favorite things I ever learned from the bible, "Suffer fools not gladly", in fact one of the only things I learned from there.
i ignore facebook like the disease
I also choose not to use Facebook. It's difficult when everybody else does. I fear information of mine being used against me by shadowy criminals who are looking for targets. Maybe not now, but in a few years.
Once upon a time, I was young. I still remember not believing the wisdom of those who were older and wiser. I thought maybe they had never tried my way, and I knew best.
Now I tell young people things I was told but they don't believe me. They think their way is better. They think I never tried it.
Reality: an idiot is born every minute. Out of politeness, I don't call them names, but it is also obvious that explaining with facts, logic and proof to them is a pointless exercise. They don't want to listen to the different opinion, even if 99.9% of internet articles explain the truth.
A good example of this would be a young mother who destroys her health by insisting her baby has to sleep in her bed, despite instructions from her own mother, all her friends, doctors, the internet and her husband that baby should sleep in his own bed in his own room. Yet despite all the evidence, she insists her baby "needs" her, and as a result is sleep deprived and irritable. Everyone but her is an idiot. Then she has a second child or a grandchild. Now she is wiser and knows.
Everyone seems to have to learn the hard way, and until they have learned, the others are idiots. The world isn't about to change. Old and young think "idiot", but only badly educated trolls say it out loud.
First the post part, the posts i've seen on Steemit are civil and respectful. The reputation system helps alleviate most trolls, and things fell like a community. Maybe as things grow it will change a bit, but i think it's a welcoming place currently. I think one of the main niches for Steemit is being an open minded community, especially regarding the differences in the world. Peace
I agree. I'm not a big social media guy. I've done a little on G+, and a bit more on LinkedIn. Friends know that if my name ever showed up on fb, it is an attempt at identity theft.
This place has 2 big draws, civility being primary and then the value system being secondary. I suspect that will also draw other people of value.
I agree! The rewards and flagging system here combined with reputation have a very interesting impact on how enjoyable the conversations are.
-- Attributed to Aristotle
I suspect the value of Steem is in the acknowledgement of our limited progress in this area. However it could be reworded "... fear of the Flag." LOL