I will not flag a person... I will use words... @berniesanders brings on the ad hominems and profanity
@matrixdweller I guess has gone on a flag attack on @berniesanders. This is not something I endorse. @berniesanders has since posted recommending a flag attack by himself and others against @matrixdweller.
If you've been following me or anything I've written in the last six months I am anti-flag. I believe it should only be used for spam, plagiarism, and abuse. Not for subjective reasons. I have however, been swayed to the idea that game theory requires it be there at the moment until WE (yes all of us) can determine an alternative (which no one has yet) that cannot be gamed and made in the long run just as bad. So I don't see getting rid of flagging as an option yet.
I do believe the actions of @berniesanders and others have proven my concerns that I described long ago with regard to the flag. That it just leads to wars, hostility, and also is a very negative thing for steemit.
So I commented yesterday on this @berniesanders post "Trolling by matrixdweller".
Later that evening I looked at some of @matrixdweller's posts since he now is receiving $0.00 on anything he posts. I am not a fan of such things even with people I dislike. I would not even support people like @berniesanders making $0.00, or @dollarvigilante who some people don't like and call a scammer, etc.
So I came across this post by @matrixdweller
I responded to that as follows...
Is any of that untrue? It may be uncomfortable, but is it false? (It could be, I am actually asking, that is not rhetorical)
Let's take a look at Steemwhales.com to put some things into perspective before I continue...
I will not flag someone for disliking them, or subjective reasons. This includes @berniesanders. I will however use my words, critical thinking, and reason.
In the past my responses to @berniesanders actions in posts were more about trying to see if I could sway him to not throwing his weight around and doing harm to steemit, and it's community. This did not work, and it is clear that it will not work.
So he has finally decided to lash out at me with profanity and ad hominem attacks. I am demonstrating a way to respond to such things that does not require me flagging. To which he can flag me, and recruit his many accounts and friends to flag me if he chooses. To his credit, he has not YET done such a thing. Yet, he did decide to resort to ad hominems and insults, so I guess it is time to respond as I do feel I should.
You can find my responses on this post.
@Berniesanders over the past half a year
I'll show you a recent exchange as @dantheman (co-creator of steemit/steem)made a post related to this...
@son-of-satire posted about some observations he had made concerning @berniesanders there. These were new to me, and @berniesanders did engage me in a discussion about them there. I think that discussion was quite revealing. Before we dive into that though let me show you some of what @son-of-satire posted. It was a lengthy comment. You can read it by clicking on the banner above for @dantheman's post. It is actually the top comment.
I responded to this comment and you can see @berniesanders' first response to me.
@smooth did make a point I agree with, but I clarified why the comment actions of @berniesanders were hypocritical.
That was but a recent example... This pattern and what inspired me several times and other people goes back for as long as I've been around on steemit.com.
And I am not the only one that writes such posts... many people do.
The following one was in response to the messengers doing the investigations into sock puppets and other gaming the system actions being attacked for speaking up and sharing their findings.
I am not sharing those posts as PROOF I KNOW what I am talking about. Quantity does not prove anything. It does represent that I have been very passionate about the subject for some time. I was careful to NOT name people when I thought about it though there may be some older posts where I mentioned people. I wanted to discuss the wars, the negative PR, and the bad things I believe it would cause for steemit.
People like @berniesanders are vocal about their right to do so. Though they ended up not being too happy about it when @dantheman down voted posts with BOTH of his accounts, which is something @berniesanders does with multiple accounts frequently.
You see they are completely fine with war and carnage as long as they believe they have the biggest guns. When people like him suddenly do not have the biggest guns and someone uses the same tactics on them then suddenly it is BAD and they better get all of their friends to retaliate.
Alliances are historically famous for dragging nations into what we call the World Wars. Learn your history people.
@berniesanders was not specifically someone I was watching early on in my anti-flag posts. I really started noticing that as people did investigations his handle, and handles of other accounts of his kept coming up... I really noticed it when he flagged @dollarvigilante for the following post... I'll include @berniesanders justification for that as well...
That was @dollarvigilante's 5th post. They had only been on steemit.com for a few days. People like @larkenrose, @highimpactfilms, and many others came to steemit also because of him. People were coming to steemit that were not big names but, due to him. That was kind of a early "how-to" post he made on his 5th post. Search engines sucked, and many people were here reading his posts as their gateway to steemit. So what did @berniesanders say about his flagging....?
Read that carefully... then revisit him up voting his own comments $8+
How about some of those investigations?
I didn't do any of these investigations, but I read with them and interacted with the authors. I did start to notice @berniesanders and some of his other accounts came up quite a bit.
Having higher wealth (aka steem power) does not make that person a good person, honorable, etc. They are simply a person. You would think someone who chooses the handle @berniesanders would UNDERSTAND this.
Also because someone is wealthy and might bless your posts with nice payouts also does not mean they are necessarily good, or honorable. The money may be more important to some people.
I am not one of those that believe we are stuck in stone, or in carbonite. We can change, but it takes effort. We have to first believe we are doing something wrong. If we do not see what we are doing is wrong or hypocritical then it is likely we will not change.
I dislike hypocrisy a great deal. I will often post about issues that I really don't care about other than seeing the hypocrisy involved. So far I have never been a victim of a massive flag onslaught. Perhaps this will be my first.
@berniesanders... I found this mic on the floor and thought you might want it back.
Steem On!
While it is true those with the largest stakes have the "right" to allocate their votes any way they want, including voting for themselves. It is disingenuous (as pointed out) to argue your own right to upvote and flag, but be critical of others doing it. Both Smooth and Berniesanders have argued many sides of this debate.
While, yes, everyone can use their stake however they want. It doesn't mean it is in the best interest of the platform. While one would think the largest whales would want to look out for their investment, I am often left scratching my head. Wondering what the motives of someone who is so invested are to behave in such a manner on the blockchain.
I have become pretty disappointed in the platform overall and as I watch all this unfold, I keep asking...
WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO INVEST IN THIS?
Yes, why invest? But the human drama here is immense right now, Shakespearen in its complexity. And so, fully in a spirit of satire, couldn't we use all this to encourage people to sign up, to come and enjoy the show? The, in a couple of days/weeks/months/years, when the various actors learn the intricacies of human-to-human communication, this flood of new-users might then indeed invest and support the platform on its journey to the moon. In the meantime we could sell popcorn.
lol, YES. And we have had a lot of new sign ups in the past few days.
I have some reassurance that @dantheman is aware of this and is trying to think of solutions. Seeing there is a problem does not immediately reveal a solution that might not be gamed in other ways, potentially worse ways. So he's in a tough situation now.
I just try to sway people with words... and I up vote stuff I like.
I invest by writing content, and hopefully preserving my works in the blockchain for eternity. :P
I applaud your patience and commitment, and whole-heartedly agree with you about using words to express opinions.
I absolutely think you are one who posts quality content regularly and that your writing is an investment! One I truly hope you will continue!
I shouldn't have worded that in a way that sounded like I didn't value your contribution or the work you have put into your investment.
My mind was "shaped" in the corporate world where there are things like "Due Diligence" and vetting your investment before putting money into something. In my mind, you don't put (much) money into something with large stakeholders working in a different direction than the company trying to grow it.
It is interesting here, where people "trade" instead of invest. Will be interesting to watch it unfold.
It's a new paradigm and it still seems to be trying to find it's shape.
You have to remember some of the whales just happened to be mining very early, they havent invested their own money and have cashed out huge profits. Still a bit sad to see how bernie is acting out. .
I think your points are valid and regardless of whether or not anyone agrees with you, you deserve to be treated with respect because I have only ever seen you act respectful on Steemit. The lack of respect being shown to you here is a real shame. If you continue to stick to critical thinking, a good decision making process, and good conflict management, I think you will help the platform continue to grow as you always have! Don't Stop!
Thank you. That is appreciated. That is actually my only goal too... rather than treating steemit like my personal kingdom I would like to see it be a place for everyone.
A good leader will do what is right for the organization, not just what is right for them.
If more people like you were active on Steem, more people like me would be too. It's sad really but I think this network is going to need to crash a bit more before productive people will be able to afford to start working on it. I want to be actively a force for good on steem, thanks for doing the job while I am down.
resteeming.
I was gone 2 weeks and the flagging has gone insane.
Upvote, very good post backed by some great points. I have also had a opinion in the matter, more or less I made a funny situation out of it so that people could come to some realizations without getting their feelings hurt. Either way, very good Post. Keep up the hard work.
I'm with you about flagging my friend! I've flagged one spam post since I've been on here. This is supposed to be the free marketplace of ideas. Flagging as a form of censorship has no place here. Doing it because you have a lot of power (steem) is even worse...it is an abuse of power. Upvoted (as always)!
I sort of predicted this kind of thing happening in my post here https://steemit.com/anarchy/@randr10/why-steemit-is-not-a-good-model-for-anarchism-yet. I think Steemit needs a Dispute Resolution Organization provision in order for the whole flagging thing to become civilized and avoid flag wars. A DRO would be sort of an insurance policy against unjust flagging. If said DRO is to be anything other than retaliatory, it would need to be something built into Steemit itself, and many entities would need to have access to the system to create a competitive market and prevent power from centralizing too much with any given DRO.
Now a DRO that is strictly retaliatory in nature could be set up independent of the platform without anything changing with Steemit itself. It could be a regular account set up on Steemit, and it would simply pool the resources of its subscribers in order to become a whale. This would allow the DRO Whale, or DROW, to tangle with and win a flag war against even the largest whales on Steemit. The pooling of resources would theoretically provide for this.
The problem with a DROW is that it can't restore your lost Steem and reputation if you're erroneously flagged by someone. It could still be effective, but this is the reason I think the Steemit admins need to build something into the system that would allow certain entities to do more than just pull a lot of weight and throw that into their own flagging.
Yep, I did too going way back in some of those posts I shared. The key here is that Dan/Ned are trying to keep steem/it something that can be maintained by the users and does not require specialized positions. The closest thing to specialized positions we have is witnesses that WE can vote up/down.
So anything that we come up with we need to think how we can implement it such that it does not put the power into the hands of individuals who cannot be added/removed by the community. An example would be moderators. Sometimes they are good, and sometimes they are censorship run amok assholes.
So that is but the first consideration...
The second consideration is to consider and try to imagine ways you could GAME or take advantage of that idea/implementation.
If you come up with ways to game it then those gaming situations need to addressed first before it can really move forward.
Dan proposed being able to down vote flags themselves, but they do honor the community and I guess people were not supportive of that.
The idea was if a whale flagged someone, and we thought the flag was bogus then we could start down voting THAT flag to cancel it out.
The real problem though is that ideally we wouldn't even need a flag other than a mechanism to report spam, plagiarism, and abuse if not for the fact that leaves the system open to be gamed.
That is where we are at now, and Dan is aware of this as well. We need an alternative method but all of these things must be considered.
A thing about a DRO is that it could become like moderators. If you happen to be friends with the people in the DRO then you may get biased representation. If we have a way to automate it that cannot be gamed, then something like that could work.
We have quite a few options that are ALMOST good, until we start thinking up ways to game them. Make no mistake some whales do game the system, so that would not stop. Non-whales do as well, they just are not whales yet so it is not as noticeable.
Well if a DROW is problematic, the current Steemit system is problematic in the same way. As I said, DROWs could be set up using regular old Steemit accounts right now. If I had more time on my hands I'd start one myself, if only just to see if one could be made to work. It would take a monumental effort to manage the sales and administration of such a venture. I don't even really have time these days to post (I just find this topic so damn interesting, I can't resist). That said, I hereby forfeit any ownership of the idea to anyone who wants to take this ball and run with it.
The checks on DROW power would be competition from other DROWs and the sense of fairness of subscribers to said DROW. For example, if I start a DROW and establish credibility through some seed money and a fair retaliation against false flaggers, people would be apt to support my efforts and subscribe. If I go around playing politics and flagging people erroneously using the account myself, people would likely withdraw subscription and kill my revenue stream. They could also defect to other DROWs that fulfill the same function. The thing that would help prevent DROW vs. DROW wars would be mutually assured destruction.
Well experimentation is critical. If you could DO one to try it out then I completely support that. I even support steemit.com experimenting with new things here. As long as we are willing to take a step back when something doesn't work and not get too invested in what WILL work before we've tried it, then I'm pretty much willing to try almost anything. :)
Now that I'm reading that post back to myself, you could make a provision in the charter of such an organization that all of the steem power granted in subscription would have to be forfeited back to the subscriber in the event that the DROW were to commit fraud.
yeah lets start the conspiracy whale wars :) bring in the undead and the orcs while we are at it :D
Just be civil and figure things out at the start don't vortex problems to infinity , @matrixdweller is a whinny itch , but I've followed him for his posts and his resilience :D , maybe after a month , or if he starts posting different topics , he will get his income back, other than that only public pressure can calm things down , be cool and solve problems , I'm not into the whale politics so I'm not one to listen to , but it's detrimental to have "wars" give everyone a "flag" and banner together :D even the time allocated to these topics is too much of a wasted effort,
this place is great and still has a way to go , lets just have some forums , chill the fuck out and start doing something productive , I mean Steem the fuck out :D
I am so sick to death of seeing the word "Flag" on steemit. Such a great innovation with so many dark clouds.
Yeah if we could safely get rid of it without leaving the flood gates open for some ways things could be gamed I'd be very happy to see it gone.
I actually didn't know there was a flag or downvote back in July when I started for about a week.
I actually considered that a positive.
I have been thinking lately that this problem will solve itself once we have more diversity in regards to STEEM power. At the moment, the only way to receive a payout really is by a whale vote, which makes a whale flag a very powerful thing. When there are enough dolphins on the site that a whale flag doesn't effect the payout quite as much, then we will see a lot less anger and hatred towards those who have made use of their flags.
The only worry is, whether we will have a community long enough to see a more diverse distribution of STEEM power. Even I have been thinking very recently of taking a break from posting. I would still work just as much, and produce just as much content, but save that content for a time when two days work earns me more than 50 cents.
I know many others are thinking the same, so Steemit probably won't last much longer unless some of the issues are resolved rather quickly. But, I feel that almost every problem stems from an unbalanced distribution.
I'm pretty happy to see one of your well written posts (the one I resteemed) doing well. You also bridged the divide getting both Bernie and Dan. Well done, well deserved. I think you should stick around... you are often an island of reason and good observations in the storm.
Thank you. I am very happy to see I finally made a trending post also.
I think in regards to bridging the divide however, I believe, though I could be wrong, that the berniesander's upvote came as a result of the steem guild curation initiative, because I noticed that curie also upvoted my post.
Could be. I guess I look at it with optimism. That silver lining.