The Problem With Flags - Educational Post

in #smartvotes8 years ago (edited)

A few weeks ago with a heavy heart I clicked the "Power Down" button. This was an emotional reaction to the words of a whale that brought me to the realisation that the minnows were no longer important to him. I believed if minnows weren't happy and wanted a change they had to rely on the whales support. I'm pleased today because a group of steemians proved that this is not always the case.

When I chose "Power Down" I was choosing to consider carefully whether this platform will be worth all the time and love I give it. I was preparing myself to walk away. I was afraid that things were never going to change as long as people feared the power-holders and their flags. I decided though, that if I'm going to go I'm going to have to say something to voice my dissatisfaction.

I had a choice. Either I whinge and moan about the problem I was seeing, and get no attention for it - because nobody likes a crybaby - or I can write something that will at least engage the community so that when it does get flagged, it will still be active enough to be noticed.

I proposed something that put me on Santa's naughty list.

But I realised there was far more fear of and confusion about the flag than I had anticipated.

There are two ways to perceive a downvote (flag).

  1. A tool for reporting abuse and a vote towards censoring the content
  2. A tool for redistributing the rewards of a highly rewarded post back to all of the other posts being valued at the same time.

Anybody who gets flagged jumps straight to the assumption that they are being accused of abuse. It feels like a kick in the teeth, rather than an altruistic feature for redistribution.

Steemit is a social media platform on which the users become the stakeholders. As stakeholders we each have some power (which comes with responsibility) in choosing how content on the webite is rewarded and what content makes it to top of the trending page. This curation is rewarded if you curate something early - but not as much if you vote when the rewards are already high - so the system is designed to discourage you from "piling on" on one post. We have a responsibility to make sure the content on the trending page is not being over-valued. When we have authors who are always trending (which is usually unsustainable), we can expect some emotional reactions when they get a pay cut.

OK kids, sit down and put your finger on your lips!


Your downvote is the exact same weight as your upvote but in the opposite direction. It does not report the post to anybody since this is to be a decentralised system. The post does not become hidden unless it is downvoted enough to bring it below $0.00. Your "Potential Payout" may fluctuate and is not yours until after your payout and therefore, any effects this payout has on your reputation also does not belong to you until after your payout which means your reputation is not damaged by a downvote unless the value of your post is brought below zero. In fact the flag is even at a cost to the flagger since we have a limited number of votes before our curation rewards get diluted. A downvote does not gain curation reward and is therefore the cost of an upvote which would have.

Yet people insist that when they are flagged they are being attacked.

But I cannot force my perception of a downvote on you. Changing the flag back to the original design of a downvote would probably not be enough to change community perception.

Here is how I propose we change things, so that we can create a system where we don't have to overvalue posts out of fear of using the downvote to redistribute the rewards.

Smart Votes

Imagine if when you upvote something your vote is only effective until the post reaches a value which you believe is the maximum value that post is worth. In other words, I could up-vote a post that is at $10, but I can smart-vote the post up to a max of $100 so that when the post reaches that value my vote would become ineffective. The vote is still in place on the blockchain, so the curation reward still applies to reward those who found the post early.

This could help alleviate the feeling of bitterness over their rewards being removed because it would happen more naturally by those who upvoted the post.

I am sure the downvote can still play a role here too, but there would need to be a way to incentivise people to smart-vote responsibly if we are to expect to not need the downvote to rebalance author rewards.

Finding and rewarding Noobs

I've also been thinking about ways to incentivise finding and rewarding new authors on steemit. Ever since our feeds became our homepages, steemians have gotten more and more clique which puts a barrier between us and newcomers. Here are 2 ideas to help with this:

  1. Develop an automated tag for first posts, so that anybody who writes a first post is automatically tagged in a place where we can find them.
  2. Create higher curation rewards for finding authors with less followers.

Since building a following is so important to steemians, we could lower the percentage of author rewards for newcomers, incentivising whales to seek out their content. Those of us with a large following should still get enough whale votes if they anticipate enough of our followers will upvote us. It is difficult to think of appropriate numbers for this. Currently the user with the most followers is @dollovigillante with 3500 followers and there are only 40 accounts with 1000+ followers. We could match 0 - 1000 followers with a curation scale of 50% to 25%. This would really encourage competition between lesser known authors and those who come with a following. Authors are incentivised to gain followers still, because the curation rewards take less of their rewards and curators are incentivised to find more new authors to gain a higher percentage of the curation reward.

Looking forward to the New Year...

I want to thank everybody who voiced their unpopular/controversial opinions in the past week. I felt very alone in my concerns and was on the verge of giving up as it seemed like there was no opposition for what I saw to be defeating the purpose of our presence here. It is a true honour to be a part of this community.

I look forward to a bumpy future ahead with you all. I say bumpy rather than bright because we must remember that this is all a learning experience and experiment. We will make mistakes and tear each other apart. But I am glad there are so many of us who believe in this concept and are willing to stand up and poke holes in the flaws in the system.

It turns out there are alternatives to having lots of SP and alternatives to flagging to make things change for the best of the community and this is how we celebrate when things work out.

Vote not for betting games

Many members of the community have come to the decision that votes should be strictly used for reward distribution for authors. The reason we have curation set so that only those who are first to find valued content get the majority of the reward is to prevent pile ons. These betting games did not prevent pile ons. You could vote first or last and as long as the pool is getting bigger the incentive is to pile on. This is the difference between curation rewards and vote buying. When the vote is used in a betting game that undermines the system in place.

What is Vote Buying?

Vote buying is when you can gain added rewards - other than curation - for voting on a post. The size of the rewards also manipulates further piling on which extracts rewards from the posts valued less because of less visibility. This discourages competition and we hope that any other games authors will reconsider how they manipulate incentives to vote for their post.

Many successful initiatives such as #openmic have rewarded participants without using their own post rewards to incentivise participation or pile-ons. There are other ways to continue the gaming and keep the reward pool for those who worked on the post. Lets keep steemit clean and open for competition.

Sort:  

I don't agree with what you call smart voting. To me, either you found the post worth a vote or not. If it's worth a vote, it's not up to you to place a cap on the value of the post. If you don't think it is worth a vote or you think it's made enough, then you don't vote.

As for downvoting to so called redistribute rewards, same thing. Not your call. Downvoting, flagging or whatever one wants to call it should only be for abuse towards the platform or others

I'm not putting a cap on the post. I'm putting a cap on my vote. Others may value the post higher than $100 and their votes would continue to increase the value of the post.

with the slider you already have a way to express how you value the post. It's not your right to put a cap on what another person can earn.

Great post @beanz. The vote buying thing is a very fine line to thread but I am totally against flagging as a way of reducing the payout in these posts. As much as the vote betting takes rewards away from authors , it also keeps minnows engaged with the platform and gives them a another reason to access the platform regularly. Very important while they become comfortable with how things work. I feel a bigger issue is the lack of real engagement with commenters on posts. Very few get replies or comments back from authors. If we want this to be a social network we must get more social.

I am still not a fan of the flag. However, I LOVED your idea on a curation reward being more for a smaller user, based on Rep or Followers.

"Create higher curation rewards for finding authors with less followers."

I have thought several times that it might be useful to let each author decide on the curation percentage for each post. If I'm new and getting established, maybe I'll set my author/curator split to 50/50 in order to attract readers. 50% of something is better than 75% of nothing. After I have an established following and my payouts grow larger, I might be able to increase the author percentage to 75, 80, or even 90% and still attract votes.

That's sounds like a great idea, only problem being hour obvious will it be that you chose 50/50 curation instead ... Adding it to the user interface probably wouldn't be very appealing.

I like your idea for the smart vote. That's actually a pretty ingenious idea. I have been an opponent of using the flag for anything other than spam, abuse, and plagiarism for a long time. I've encountered those that approach it as redistributionists, and I am opposed to the idea of redistribution unless it is voluntary from the person that things are being taken from. Voluntary is not how the flag works so it does feel like an attack. It has not really happened to me, but I've seen it happen to many people that I could not see why it was done. I was upset about the attack aspect of it. Sometimes it is intended as an attack. I consider involuntary redistribution an attack here just like I perceive it as such outside of the steemit world.

I do like your idea for smart vote. I do not feel anyone else should have the right to determine how I choose to award my steem power in voting. I do think the idea of a smart vote could be interesting.

I'd also encourage you to stick around DESPITE those who treat their power and the flag like a sword. Leaving will not change things. Staying and leading by example just might.

Nice post... resteemed.

You see I wouldn't consider it involuntary redistribution because when I arrived I was always aware that the rewards are not actually mine until after the payout. Until then they are part of the pool and the distribution is still being decided.

I've often had a post go from something like $90 down to $80 not because of any flags but because the whales woke up and just started upvoting other things.

Thank you for the comment and resteem :)

This is true, yet the argument for the downvote that is often used is exactly for redistribution. The person did not agree that someone else up voted the post to make a certain amount, so they choose to vote to redistribute some of that.

That is involuntary.

I don't know about you, but a big part of the appeal of steem power and accumulating it is the ability to reward people more. If someone with more power on a WHIM because they do not like something, disagree with it, or think it has no value can flag it and thus NEGATE my interest then that is involuntarily stating that my interest did not exist, and that my steem power had no value.

Any redistribution where the person that has the redistribution applied to them without them agreeing is involuntary. If I instead provide my steem power to a pool, that is voluntary.

It is basically the difference between me deciding to donate to a charity, or volunteer to assist in a project, and people forcefully taking my income and spending it where they like (such as wars of aggression). I freely admit I am an anarchist (or if you prefer Libertarian) so I am very anti-involuntary redistribution. I see it as no different than theft. Sure it was POTENTIAL earnings, but those earnings can be potential due to steem value fluctuating, and the overall distribution of the pool. Those things happen without someone negating my vote for something that was my interest. It is suddenly as if my interest in something no longer existed. YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO LIKE SUCH THINGS HERE.

Hey @beanz
Paying The Goons to Hit on some Account ????

It was meant to be satirical. They buy votes, so do I but they chose upvotes to redistribute, I chose down votes to redistribute. Only one person got the joke it seems.

I leave you alone for now.
Is not my business.
Will let you do the Fat Trimming.
I am now mainly catching the syndicate , stop giving to the wrong accounts.

That could work... not sure how to implement it... but it could definitely work. Providing a higher curation reward may be the start to changing some of the voting behavior, but it would need to be a substantial difference. Also, that means the author will now be getting less rewards, though hopefully from a higher total... something to keep in mind. But yes, the best way to fix things is to incentivize it rather than forbid it... which is exactly what you are proposing. Good thoughts.

Smart vote is a pretty great idea I think.

I like your ideas! Re-steeming.

This is why it's so important that the platform is not censored, so that people feel like they stand a chance and express themselves. Because people speak/understand differently even when they speak the same language. I am glad Steemit allows for the subject to be discussed enough to spot where the communication problems are coming from, what exactly is not being understood.

My main worry with the flag was that I only saw it as an abuse report that could possibly endanger your earnings, since I was never around when there was a downvote then the only context I had is that of reporting abuse (maybe out of contact with others here, maybe because that is what it's used for everywhere else, maybe a combination). I never saw it as a way to redistribute and I am sure this is happening to a lot of people so all this conversation is healthy. Thanks for sharing!

Yes, this is a serious issue with the flag icon itself. I understand if it is supposed to discourage overuse of it, as we should all be concentrating on upvotes mostly, but there is nobody to "report abuse" to... And so that wrongly likens it to the YouTube flag where it's a huge kick up the ass because your video just gets taken down.

Reputation goes beyond the actual "rep".

If I see a flag on a post, I know there is an increased likelyhood that this is due to percieved: "Fraud or Plagiarism, Hate Speech or Internet Trolling, Intentional miscategorized content or Spam".

Even if there's nobody to report to who could hide the content all by himself, it serves as a potential warning. - A normal downvote, which I would like to see implemented as well, should be treated and displayed differently.

It is an issue, yes. Just today I noticed the first person who had gone on a flagging chasedown because he didn't like something I had to day a while back, I had honestly even forgotten about the user. But he didn't forget me and flagged most of my blog including your post which I had resteemed.

This just goes to show you that something does need to be done not just when it comes to the perception of flags but maybe also separating content from blogs and resteems.

The down vote was prior to July I can tell you this much. I joined then and it did not exist then other than as the FLAG. My impression was that if it was intended as an actual down vote it would have been in the voting area and would not be a flag but a down arrow or something. Flag is typically an indicator of a PROBLEM, or ABUSE, etc.

@tombstone told me they had a great many debates on how the downvote should be used and I can tell you that there are whales that are not using it as the consensus of those discussions decided upon. Though it is free so "consensus" doesn't really matter. The consensus could decide the world is flat... that doesn't make the world suddenly change it's shape.

I'd be happy with a no down vote, and only a flag for plagiarism, spam, and abuse. It becomes far too subjective and hostile when utilized for other purposes. It actually would be irrelevant who disliked something if not for the financial, and in some cases potential reputation ding.

Follow up - I like the idea of the curation reward being more for finding people with less followers who write good things. That is actually a tremendous idea. Have the curation so it is tiered and those of us that have quite a bit of followers will still hopefully get votes, but they will hopefully be more because it is interesting than because we are a good bet for curation.

I also think it is really important to recognize new people, attract new people, and keep them here and engaged as new community members.

I really like this idea.

Coin Marketplace

STEEM 0.18
TRX 0.14
JST 0.029
BTC 57849.42
ETH 3122.29
USDT 1.00
SBD 2.43