Upvote Bots : Use and Abuse??
Hey everyone,
In my travels around steemit, I have noticed a topic that seems to pop up quite a bit, and that is the use of upvoting bots, more specifically, the question of whether or not they are appropriate and how or if their "over-use" is considered abuse.
@inquiringtimes is currently compiling opinions in his recent post, https://steemit.com/steemit/@inquiringtimes/what-is-appropriate-use-of-upvote-bots-a-survey. This was just posted two days ago, so please make your way there and leave a comment if you feel strongly about this topic. It would be nice to see as many people as possible respond, simply to see what the general consensus might be.
After reading all of the comments on his post, I left this response:
From what I see here, there are two distinct camps; one is hoping for a near-perfect world where people would use some common sense and use the bots when they've created something worthwhile. And yes, I realise that's all semantics because who then decides what 'quality content' means. This group also believes in the sheer quality that exists on this platform and the possibility for it to continue to grow, but with 'quality users' to go along with that 'quality content'. The second camp tends to lean towards the idea if you can't beat 'em, join 'em; not to abuse the system like 'they' do, but to earn something on your own quality content. This camp prefers to view the bots as a way to make well-deserved money, because after all, this is a job and in this world, we make money at our job and simply deserve it. If you don't like that someone is earning more, the beauty is that you too can work harder and earn more as well. I think the one general consensus everyone's agreeing with is that the people who post garbage and make piles of money on it simply because they are taking advantage of the voting bots shouldn't be allowed.
When I began on steemit just 2 months ago, I 'dabbled' in upvoting bots to try and figure them out. If I had a post that I deemed 'good quality', but because of my 'newness' hadn't received much from it, I tried to use the bots to basically "pay myself for a job well done". Other times, I tried them on some photos or posts that didn't take a lot of work, and felt like I had given myself a birthday present when it wasn't my birthday...not very deserving and I must admit, I didn't feel right about it. Or I had a post that was dedicated to my friend who was dying of cancer and all proceeds were going to her foundation....a very good reason to use a bot I think. I have since quit using them altogether now and will gauge my growth organically. I do believe in the power of quality posts, but more so, at my stage here, I believe in the power of commenting and developing community in the hopes of earning true followers who want to upvote my work. Time will tell, but I'll be very curious to see what you come up with here!
@ilyastarar just wrote an indepth blog on the approriate use of upvoting bots in response to @inquiringtimes survey; you can check out his post here:
https://steemit.com/steemit/@ilyastarar/detailed-opinion-on-appropriate-use-of-upvote-bots-bot-abuse-and-quality-content
He states that they could be used for the following:
1. Promotion of Good Quality Content
2. Spreading an Urgent But Important Information
3. Promoting Your Content in Specific Tags to Reach Focused Audience
but not used in these circumstances:
1. Using Bid Bots on Plagiarized/Spam Content
2. Getting Massive Votes on Low-Quality Content
3. Voting Late on Your Posts
4. Using Bots for ROI
5. Abuse of Reputation Score Algorithm
6. Excessive Use of Bid Bots
7. Using Bid Bots Too Early
For specific details, please check out his blog because it is certainly worth reading! His purpose is to to open up the lines of communication surrounding bid bots also in the hopes of reaching some kind of consensus.
There is also the issue of the timing of upvoting bot use and the question of what exactly is quality content. @markymark explores these questions in his post https://steemit.com/community/@themarkymark/what-is-appropriate-use-of-upvote-bots-a-survey-my-response, which is also his response to @inquiringtimes' survey.
I don't have the answers, but I'm curious what you guys think.
How should voting bots be used? Should they be used? Should their use somehow be standardized? Are there any easy answers here?
Thank you so much! Cheers :)
(all images from Google images)
I was using upvotewhale. For every $1 SBD I spent I got a $2.1 SBD. At least that's what it looked like. I've since read a post that says I was actually loosing money since I hadn't taken 75% curation into account. So now I don't use it but I miss the little psychological boost it gave me to see my posts earn a little more.
Today I've been reading the following post by @trumpman about bots which I found extrememly informative, especially the discussion it has generated. https://steemit.com/steem/@trumpman/if-you-use-upvote-services-please-read-these-two-posts
For myself, I've stopped using upvotewhale and wouldn't have the confidence to try the others. Also, sadly, they seem to serve those that have more than those starting out.
If you go to https://steembottracker.com/, there's a spot where you can put your bid in and it calculates the actual results based on curation too. If you use them, it's a great tool to see if you're going to get ripped off or not haha
Thanks Lynn. Not sure I'm going to bother with them anymore to be honest. Even if it starts off well when the price of Steem changes they can drop and you still make a loss.
People talk about them giving you more exposure but I haven't noticed that. Mind you I only used the one and I was only spending $1 so not trying to get on hot or trending. No chance of that!
As I said in my video yesterday, I'm feeling a bit down with it all at the moment. I'm taking a step back a bit and having a rethink! 😊
Thanks for posting about this and I will definitely go to the survey. I also had the same dilemma in using bid bots. I still go to the small votes of minnowsupport or banjo at the steemph discord (although recently I use them for other posts that I find unrecognized). I think we still need these so we can be uplifted a bit.
But I chose not to use the bid bots. I chose to grow organically. It's difficult and frustrating especially when I see other posts that earn more than it deserves because of bots, while we earn a few dollars for posts that we work on for hours. My lesson is not to compare myself with others. And we all have different strategies. I wouldn't have these thoughts if I only focused on my earnings. I believe there's a natural way that our posts will be $1 then $2 on average and then more and it will grow at a stable rate.
Oh I forgot to add..I agree that these bid bots are useful and at times necessary if the post has an important or urgent message/ announcement.
I agree how it doesn't seem fair when you see high paying posts based mainly on the bots, but I also know how I feel about the person using so many and I don't want others to feel that way about me! I hope to one day be successful here (and by the way, I think we both are already:) and people will see that my success was built on something real.
I agree. We have limited votes so I would give it to someone who has an undervalued post (and which I like too).
You're right, we're actually already doing good. I see beyond the earnings of my post now :)
This has been a very hot topic of late, but it's a good one to keep bringing up so more of us see at least someone's take on it and then talk about it.
I didn't take the survey, mainly because I'm going to be the outlier, the one who never uses the bots for any reason.
The more I research and read, the more I'm convinced that bots need to go.
Here's why:
They skew things—they skew the vote numbers, the vote amounts, and they mess with curation as well as what the author might receive. They also affect reputation to some degree.
They're increasingly inefficient—the more they're used, the less they pay. You will need more and more bots as time goes by.
The creator decides what constitutes quality content—while it will probably be a net amount after paying for the bot, the creator is still saying, "It's quality. I deserve to be paid for this." And if the pay amount on the bot is enough to get noticed by others, it's not because other curators got it there.
Human curators don't benefit from the bot(s) upvote—if the bot hits within a designated time (a few minutes), the author doesn't share any of the amount with a would be curator.
They mask the real problem. In fact, they make the problem worse—the problem being human nature. Instead of demanding change happen in the reward system, bots along with other things are an acceptable workaround.
You can lose money with bid bots—which isn't in and of itself a bad thing—if bots are being used as an advertising tool, you expect to spend and not get anything back from the bot. However, most people are not only expecting a higher ROI because of visibility, their hoping to make something back from the bot (because some promise it), either in a fraction of the SBD they spent, or in the net of what the bot paid versus what they spent.
Once you use them, and use them frequently, it can be hard to ever stop using them—why would you stop? Vote bots only get more powerful the more you get powerful, and if you actually have enough to pay a bot to get you up on the trending or hot pages, then you get more eyeballs on your post and more rewards!
There's probably more (I got interrupted and lost the roll I was on :) ) so I'll stop there.
I appreciate you bringing the topic up. It can't be talked about enough, especially if it leads to change.
Thank you so much for the detailed response @glenalbrethsen! You would be surprised after I read all of the comments at @inquiringtimes 'survey', you are not the only one in this camp. In their essence, I agree with you because it's base reality can be compared to icky get-rich-quick schemes, and of course like anywhere in the world, there are people here who are focused on money only and have figured that out! I appreciate the want or need to grow organically here because I think that's what drew a lot of us in...it just makes for a better platform I think. Thank you again, and I'm hoping that @inquiringtimes sees this because I think you make a lot of valid points that should be included in his analysis.
Congratulations you have been upvoted because you left a post in the NewbieResteem Discord Chat channel post Promotion Box.
I hope that I have time to read through those three links, I have a lot of respect for those three steemians. For me any bot that ask for money is not out to help line the users pocket, but to line their (the bot owners) pocket. So for me nah, I'll just try to stay organic along the way.
We invite you to use our tag to connect with more of our members. To learn more visit: Come Join Us!!! (Newbie Resteem Initiative)
Lots of votes made possible due to the kindness of abh12345 and his Steemit Curation Leagues
Thank you @bashadow; I feel the same way. I want to be able to look back in the years to come and know that I earned my position; and right now, I just like to be able to lay my head on my pillow at night and feel good about what I'm doing.
Thanks for the newbie upvote :)
Thank you for posting this and making the discussion spread. Nice thoughts as I already conveyed to you on my blog. :)
Thank you @ilyastarar; I appreciate your support and your kind words. Let's hope this conversation continues :)
Congratulations @lynncoyle1! You have completed some achievement on Steemit and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :
Click on any badge to view your own Board of Honor on SteemitBoard.
To support your work, I also upvoted your post!
For more information about SteemitBoard, click here
If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word
STOPNice idea I must say
Thank you :)
You're welcome
nicely said
Thanks :)
great post, lynncoyle1 as usual!
Thank you, as usual :)
It is not easy to say, bots are here and I suppose they will stay. Out with the old and in with the new @lyncoyle1
Personally I only call on bots when I have put days of effort into a post that I know should hopefully be a good read, that may be a maximum of once or twice per month.
Much like you I feel the bots are being abused for the most simplistic posts I have seen.
Many technically minded people, who do not blog are making some money, so I don't feel it is completely right to remove bots completely.
Thank you for your input @joanstewart! I agree with what you're saying for sure; there seems to be legitimate arguments for both sides I think:)