If You Use Upvote Services Please Read These Two Posts
I am sure many of the people reading this post use upvote bots. I used to do that in the past too because I didn't know better and I saw no harm in getting some extra profit for my content. But we all learn and grow wiser.
There is nothing "free" in life. If you are here for the long term and care about the future of the platform I urge you to read the two posts below and pass them along any other friends you know that also use bots.
They will give you a good idea of how bots work and how that "free" profit for you isn't actually free:
- Defend Yourself Against @GrumpyCat by @erodedthoughts
- The coordination of Steemit's present for the future by @tarazkp
Just remember, people who upvote you already make money when doing that. It's called curation rewards and the system was designed that way so that the wealth is re-distributed in a fair way between the investors who put the money and the content creators who bring new people here.
But by buying votes you don't only shoot yourself in the head in the long term. You also harm those few generous whales that actually take the time to read your content and throw their fat upvote. You lessen their position on the platform and you give them all the reasons to stop being the good guys and turn to the dark side. The temptation to get 80 % of their vote back instead of 20% is really strong, don't you agree?
And imo what you harm even more is the newcomers. If you are an old member getting votes, it's possible to reinvest some of your earnings again and again and again into bots. But if you are a noobie, with no cash to invest it's very difficult to enter that cycle of bid-voting and somehow get a chance to stand out in the sea of already established members and spammers.
In my opinion, if we continue supporting these services we just ask for more abusers and less legit content creators to join Steemit.
So, please consider giving the points made by the two posts above some good thinking next time before you buy a vote. In the end, your money is your money so what you do is up to you. I think Steemit is a good experiment and sooner or later its content and what it becomes will be a nice mirror of the human nature.
Now if you ask me, the only legit use I think voting bots should have is to reward posts by other people as a gift or to counter truly unfair flags.
If you have a different opinion or something to add I would love to hear it in the comments below!
I'm not sure what determines whether or not someone earns anything or not. To be honest my blog is not the greatest. I'm not an expert on anything. But I'm a fairly funny guy with some good viewpoints on stuff. And I get good feedback and I get a lot of comments etc.
I also have a pretty large account with 5700SP, which is probably more than 99% of accounts (I think mine is ranked 1500 largest in terms of value) I also have quite a lot of followers. I post regularly and my content, even though not THE best - it's mediocre + perhaps.
Now, I'm not earning ANYTHING without using upvoting bots. Perhaps, if I'm lucky I'll get 5-10 upvotes from my Steemit-friends. I have over 2000 followers, and I get around 10 upvotes. That's 0,5%. My content will just be lost the second I post it. Unless I use bots of course..which will at least give me a SMALL shot at being seen in the trending/hot section. (Usually not trending, but often Hot)
I view the upvoting bots as paid advertising. I'm paying them to get a small shot at making some extra bucks. Sometimes I go into minus using bots, often times I make a small profit..and sometimes, if I'm lucky, some whale sees my posts and upvotes it with $5.
For those of us who doesn't have ANY big whale-friends constantly upvoting our material, it's impossible to make anything. I'm spending hours a day doing this, and the only way it's worth wile is to use bots. If I couldn't I would have to do something else, power down and leave Steemit. Because there wouldn't really be an incentive for me to be here. I could go back to Facebook or Twitter. Sure, I could log in and comment and discuss with the awesome people I've met here..but there wouldn't really be any incentive for me to keep $25,000 dollars in here.
I know that a lot of people are making money. I see you earn 14$ on this post. No offence, but I have to say I have made posts better than this one. I'm sure you can agree on that. Not saying you don't make better posts than me on average. I'm sure you do..and you do actually have good posts. But you earn 50-60$ on posts and I see you have some whales upvoting you. I don't even earn $3 :)
I'm not going to scream unfair. Like I said, I'm sure you've earned it. But from my perspective, even if my content suck..I still have to what I can to make some bucks here.
Let's say I'm pushing my capacity intellectually. I don't have much more to give. What should I do? If I stop using bots I will earn 2$ per post. 1,45$ of that would be from myself. Living in a high cost country, that's just not possible. Then I'd have to power down, get a job and leave Steemit.
But as long as there are possibilites to make more money here I will take advantage of those.
So there are only these possible outcomes:
My ears are VERY open to suggestions!
First, I gave this a bigger than usual upvote not because I agree (obviously!) but more because I would like people to see the different opinion and because this comment is actually a post by itself XD
I will respond to this in a while when I have time :)
Hehe. Thanks man
As my post was used to generate this conversation I will offer you a small example of an issue I see that may help you get more votes and followers.
(2).png)
(3).png)
That is the list of the top 10 users you support and the top ten users who support you. It may be a perfect time to stop all of your auto-votes as it appears those you auto-vote are not even voting for you.
That is where I would start. I am also in steemit.chat if you ever want to talk ideas.
Where can I see that list? @erodedthoughts
steemworld.org/@scandinavianlife
Then a few inches down on the right there are two buttons for incoming and outgoing votes.
Well, for starts, trump has said it all.. engagement and community is key on here. I've been following his advis on some areas and believe me its been worth it. i've had more engagement in community so much that i'm sure of over $9 on every post i make. it isn't rocket science. i grew the platform by spending just a bit more time focusing on growing my audience and supporting local steemit communities. checkout @stach to see what we do.
Engage, it works, everytime.
PS: on whale friends, i might have made a few, but i'd rather not bother anyone for votes. we could be friends and i might point them your way sometime. i'll be reading, sir.
@pangoli
I think you should give it a try without, your content is better than mediocre.
I can only agree @scandinavianlife and added my take in the comments below. Thanks!
Bots do nothing but make easy money.
First, you just pay them your hard earned SBD instead of powering up and getting a stronger personal vote.
Second, there is no quality evaluation in those votes, eg. you can just upvote a meme for 100$ if you can afford the right bid.
On the other hand, there are some votes and users who offer free services for minnows (totally free or asking for a minimum upvote on specific posts), which can help noobs make a difference in their payouts. But those services IMO are harmless and aiming at boosting new users.
The point is, we need to find the right balance and educate ourelves ethically in order to be able to discern when it is "fair" to use services and when not.
The only way I boost my posts is by using the busy.org service which gives you a small upvote.
My only problem is that the effort you put on a post doesn't always get reflected in the upvotes. Not only in the payout but in the number of upvotes. It's all if someone big notice you or resteem you and many other influences.
I had a look to your profile. I think I can help you a bit. Contact me on discord!
Well it's totally different for minnows, bots help make it to the hot page, but you can't close your eyes to the bigger picture. I used them too in the beginning, but I have quit doing so.
I know how it feels when your hard work is left unoticed and it hurts more to see others putting minimum effort and getting the fat rewards because they happen to know the right people or buy their way up. I think if you listen to what @trumpman has to say you will see a difference ;)
I had to stop using bots the minute i realized all of this. sure, it made my blog look deserted, but it's better that way than being seen as what you're not. not to mention the loses incured whenever steem drops in value.
It is true, blogs look deserted without the whale support and if I didn't have people backing me I would probably earn 2-3$ on every post. The point is, if you go through the platform and meet people, comment on other people's posts (genuine comments, not the "nice post" kind) sooner or later you will get others around you; on the condition that your content is of value.
And as you can see, certain communities reward the effort and time someone spends on their posts. So, as long as there are such projects, we should try to keep the value of the platform high. :)
Getting involved in a community is a great way to make some new friends and followers. I jumped back into steemit and am doing just that! I am also helping build a community as well, because it is important that we embody the change we want to see in the world. :)
It’s hard to talk fair here cause it’s so relative. I don't believe users having voting power based on steem power is fair sometimes but it’s part of how the system was designed and we probably wouldn’t have come this far without it like that.
In any case, you sum up upvote bots pretty well.
regarding your first point - powering up won't get your SP up any quicker than using a bot. not while SBD/STEEM are almost at parity.
your second point stands however.
Powering up takes time and devotion to the platform. It's a long-term investment that, unless you want to put in some real money and buy sp to make a "decently strong" account here, you have to put some of your earnings in. I didn't reach my current sp only curating and writing, I bought, I powered up and all of that did not happen in a month, I worked in here for days and days and I still try to, given my restricted time (a girl has to work in real life too). Don't misunderstand my tone, I only want to clarify what you might got wrong.
Gist: Invest time and effort and you will become something. Came here for $-at-an-instant? Alt+F4 straight away! :P
I'm not sure you get what I"m saying.
10 SBD to power up will yield around 12SP
10 SBD in to a bot will yield around 10SBD and $10 worth of SP ~ 3SBD.
both of these strategies can be part of a long term game, or "time and devotion" to the platform as you call it.
One is clearly more profitable than the other with the current STEEM/SBD conversion rate.
I don't believe your math is correct. Many bots are actually a loss from the original investment. But let me address the math first. My first post for example a couple of weeks ago says it earned 1.74. The breakdown on that came to .67 SBD and 0.17 SP. The remaining says curators got .4, how that was broken down I have no idea.
So let us say I spent 1.74 SP to get that in upvotes. I don't see where I am making all this mad profit at. It looks like a loss to me, but one I incur because it gets eyes on my post. If I don't incur that loss, my post scrolls off the page into oblivion within 30 seconds (not making this up, just now I looked and all the new posts before it adds to the page was 31 seconds and less).
This problem with visibility will only compound as the site grows, just as we saw on the Kindle platform with self publishing. The bots were a predictable result, as the promotion companies like Bookbub and Freebooksy are to self publishing.
Contrary to what some are feeling here, the bots are necessary in my opinion. And these ideas of mad profits sure haven't been the reality that I have been seeing.
Too bad when the site grows more, bots will be only an option for well-established members that already get votes by other people. I hope you have become one by then otherwise you won't be able to afford them.
depends of course on the bot that you use, but if you're getting 1.74 worth of upvotes, you should not be paying 1.74SBD. you would be paying more like 0.6-0.7SBD.
That's why you think my math is wrong.
And yes - the problem is absolutely with visibility. one of the first things I noticed when I came here is how damn hard it is to find content. They should have a similar structure to reddit.
Even I agree that it is very hard to find a content here and curate. In that aspect the platform should improve a lot.
I had in mind minnows that need a week to make 10$ at the same time dolphins or older users pay 20-30$ every day for bot-votes.
Plus, don't forget what you lose from curation rewards distribution.
The game has so many ways to be played and it is nice to see it from many points of view.
Yes definitely can't forget curation.
There's a lot of ways to go about it like you said, and no one way lasts for too long before something changes and you have to reassess...
Also when you power up something extra up there are some people that notice that. People who appreciate the fact that you care for the long term :)
Steemit community is still very small and I think that the most beneficial to the whole community would be to bring the people to the platform.
For 10 "screen dollars", you need about 36.000 Power.
Is it really that much?
Well, after 100 days, I have 800, so it's reasonable to expect people to have 1000 Power after 200 days.
So, you need to have 30-40 friends who have stable growth, and by the end of the summer - you can have steadily, "guaranteed" income comparable to East European salary by spending several hours of your hobby time.
Bots are stupid thing in a long term
yeah but I would argue that I am still caring for the long term, by the fact that I haven't taken any money out of steem, and the fact that I remain invested in the platform. Fact of the matter is I am supporting some of the businesses that live on the blockchain. Yeah you might not agree with the impact it has on the platform, and I can definitely see your perspective, but nothing I'm doing is short sighted.
I have to disagree on many points. The first thing is, that I don't pity any whale - the only whales I have ever encountered are either self-righteous or passive and I don't see much support at all. The only thing I see is self-proclaimed "reward pool rape" Robin Hoods that flame other people and use said upvote bots to push their hatred posts with amounts that no smaller fish can come up with and therefore doing not only reward pool rape themselves, but also taking away the ROI for paid upvotes from anyone else who bid in that round. This is the real harm being done in two ways.
The other point is, that if you as a minnow find a bot with a positive ROI (that is not overtaken in the last second by some hater/flamer/spammer) you are also providing good curation rewards for your real followers. I love it, when my real followers and readers get also a decent curation reward.
The third point is, that there is no real way to get seen without a decent upvote bot strategy. It's a fairy tale that consistent good content makes you seen automatically. Yes, good content is the key, but it doesn't guarantee that you get seen at all and the more people that come to Steemit, the more difficult it will get. The best content in the world is useless, if you don't get the traction to kick a post off.
My solution would be a different one. I would forbid whales to use upvote bots and only let smaller fish use them. This would make the whole system a lot fairer and prevent the three huge damages the flag-flame-spam Robin Hoods do. And yes, I know, that this won't happen or is not even possible, but it's as legit as to say "don't use bots at all".
That's my take on it....
Well, I understand you not pitying the whales :P Maybe I am biased because I often get blessed by them without asking, knowing one irl or sugar coating them. Or maybe they are more active in the tags I usually post :)
Having said that, yeah I could live with the solution you propose. But as is, it's only the established members that can actually benefit from using those services. And the more they are used, the worse the problem gets.
I used to use the bots too when I first started out, coz I didn't know better. One more thing I would add is, only after you stop using these bot, you get an idea of where you truly are at with you steemit blog....it gives you the push to spend more time on improving the quality of you posts and comments to engage more people, and eventually getting those non-bot REAL upvotes.
Sure, you might "buy" a $5 upvote from a bot, but you don't know if you truly deserved it, and thus the push to do better isn't there for you!! Trust me, when you get 15 genuine upvotes and make like $1-2, it feels much better, and if that's where you want your posts to be at for the rest of your steemit career, so be it. And if you wanna improve that, well there's your push to improve!! Go out there, find great posts, comment, engage, build your follower base and all that good stuff!!
I approve this message
😀
Good points..
Thank you :)
I'm not going to refute anything you say, because technically none of it is wrong, but what you have here is a typical prisoner dilemma if you're familiar with game theory.
Bot use is so entrenched that unless you have a significant SP holding, or know someone that does that will support you, it isn't really possible to get anywhere. You can post the best content in the world and you'll be lucky if 5 people see it.
Content discovery is lacking and that is why there's room for these bots. yes it's easy money but it's also one of the only ways to get any sort of exposure.
Dunno if it's a typical prisoner dilemma or not. But I have a good answer for this:
"it's also one of the only ways to get any sort of exposure."
Yeah, sorry but no. Six months ago I used to love @buildawhale, which is probably one of the best known and most ethically operated bots here. Back then the minimum bit was 0.1 sbd. I loved using it as a tipping service for posts I liked exactly cause it was so cheap. But now the demand is so huge that the minimum bid is 3 fucking whole sbd. Back then 0.1 was very easy to collect. Today, collecting 3 sbd for a newcomer can be a true feat. Already the thing I am describing in my post (new members getting fucked) is happening and it's gonna become hell worse.
Bots appear to be one of the few ways to get exposure but actually, if you look the forest, it's the exact opposite. Only the old established members can reap the benefits of bots, and even them actually shoot themselves in the head if we take long term into account.
yeah but you have to ask yourself - six months ago when you were using bots and only on the platform for a month or so - how much reputation did you gain by doing that? how many new followers did you gain by people seeing your posts?
It's unquestionable that it gives you exposure, because the way I find posts, is by first looking at my feed, and then by looking at "Hot" or "Trending" and if i find good content i'll click through to that author and follow them if they seem to deliver good content regularly.
and yes of course it hurts new users - I'm one of those. I see some posts get voted up to $200-300 and there's no way i'm pouring that much SBD to get that kind of exposure - there's always the risk involved that somebody downvotes your content and you lose some of, if not all of that outlay. It's almost like a game. And half the time the higher reward posts are all shit memes and photos.
So yeah, I agree that bots aren't great, but unfortunately the platform allows it and it has become wide spread.
I also think mortgages are fucking shit but if i don't have one of those I don't have a house.
"yeah but you have to ask yourself - six months ago when you were using bots and only on the platform for a month or so - how much reputation did you gain by doing that? how many new followers did you gain by people seeing your posts?"
Other than some reputation and some small monetary profits I think I didn't gain any (real) followers or any extra exposure. It wasn't like I had enough sbd to get my self anywhere near the top of trending, and the bot vote usually comes too late to get you in the top of the hot feed.
99% of my earned sp and rep points come from engaging with other people and communities. If I was to start all over from zero with what I now know, I wouldn't even spend a cent to buy a bot-vote.
Bots aren't a necessity, it's a parasite that profits only the early members and unless they take everything out and cash out in the near future, they will also end up getting fucked by them.
I guess we see things from a different angle, and we can keep using different words to make the same arguments :P
I guess it's one of those things that we can respectfully disagree on.
Obviously you've been around longer so you probably no the platform better than I in many respects, but I'd like to see examples of somebody that has built a decent account and profile without using any bots, investing significant capital, or recieved a large boost from one or two whales .
On a side note - bid bots are shit anyway - most of the time the bidders are running at a loss once curation is taken out.
@acidyo and he gives and gives and gives back to new users but once you start buying votes you exclude yourself from his curation team @ocd, you exclude yourself from a @curie vote and a lot of other groups that 100% spend their day looking for low value quality post by new users.
I am so loving this intense discussion between @farq and @trumpman, for and against bots! What level of scholarly discuss!
@farq, how does one learn to maximally use both services?
I wouldn't exactly say it's just for vs against. My whole argument is that there's shades of grey.
A world without bots might be better, but they're here, and it's self detrimental to ignore them.
not sure what you're referring to when you mention "both services". But with anything, the way to lean to use them is to try them, observe, read, etc.
I include friends, family, and people that I personally know in my @steemvoter . I occasionally "promote" a post. This is the way to go, as it voids the Steem, ergo increases the value of the remaining steem. I encourage promotion, but it is a bit like the "prisoner's dillehma."
please check the top comment by @farq who also mentioned the "prisoner's dillehma." :P
I saw that. Upvoted it too. Mostly his for his better spelling....🐂💩
😂😂
Phenomenal article. I hate bid bots and for the longest have felt my view is on the fringe. Your post and it's support tells me that perhaps my view is not such a novelty after all. Keep it up good buddy.
thank you :D
Hm. You definitely make some valid points here.
As I already told you in a comment at one of your other posts, I don't think bots are in general a bad idea. They can be really helpful for new users, who want to grow fast and produce high-quality content (I do think, without shame, that I am currently doing this), just because they are enabling them with more visibility and attract new users.
Most people just dont want to search endless pages for new content - they mainly focus onto the hot/trending pages and that's it.
I do like the work, I am doing here and I want to add more value for everyone who reads my articles, but to reach a broader audience as a minnow bots can achieve that for you. For me it's like an investment: I may not even get more financial value out of the bid, but I am more visible and can attract new followers, who are interacting with my content and get some value out of it.
For example: There was this one guy today, who told me about his fight with addiction and of becoming clean. In the end he wrote
I gave him another way of looking at his own life and this was more rewarding than any bot could ever do - but to get to this point, my post needed to be visible and that's where the bot most probably helped.
Sure, I would like to reach the point, at which my community is large enough, that my articles are hot/trending without the use of bots, but it is a long way to get there. I will always produce high-quality content, I am not here for quick money and cheap gains, but I will also use the available tools to make my content available for a broader audience :)
"Most people just dont want to search endless pages for new content - they mainly focus onto the hot/trending pages and that's it."
You would actually be surprised. Actually there are, especially in well established communities like science, gardening and writting :)
But yeah, my main problem isn't with the minnows. They usually throw 1-2 sbd per post on bots. Still, in the long term they damage themselves but only a little. But the main damage is done by people buying huge bids, just check the comment I up-voted to the top to get an idea :)
Overall, I still believe that bots won't help you much. Engaging more with the communities that actually interest you are where you will make 99 % of your real gains. Take for example some of your latest posts. The ones that are more succesful are the ones that have been supported by Steemstem. We never check the "hot" page. We always go for the "new" and check all posts one by one. Using a bot or not made no difference in one of the curators picking you up. And if your post had a huge bot upvote chances are we would have given you a smaller vote and thus you would have made a smaller profit. We like to keep things fair :)
I do believe that, but those are not the ones I'm aiming at with bids. They will find good content anyway, for me it's important to attract people outside of those established communities as well ;)
Agreed and I am already doing this. But to get a community, you need to be visible. People need to know, you exist, etc. You get my point^^ The guy with the top comment was not engaging with his community, as you said, and I agree with you, that ignoring meaningful comments is a bad idea. Trust me, I am always really grateful for the Steemstem-support. But that's a kind of support, I cannot always rely on. Sure, producing quality drastically increases the chance to get picked, but still it might not be always the case and without help, posts can easily get lost.Regarding your last sentences: You could look at things like this: If you give me a smaller vote, because I used a bot, that's fine by me, this will leave more VP for the people who can't afford or don't want to use bots ;)
As I said: I don't need to make much out of my bids, they are a way of investment to increase the growth.
I can absolutely understand your point, that bots can be harmful if abused, especially if they are pushing bullshit and spam. I just think, that, like always in life, things are not black and white :)
I once earned a lot from a whale that picked me to be a once a month upvote recipient. I became a little deluded because I thought people actually liked my content. My fault... really they were just following a whales tail. It was great and I paid a utility bill and bought some friends a portable toilet. I tried to split it up nicely between SP and Steem to honor the whale. I just powered up my last bit after reading this.
Bots, are a tool that we all agree it is abused. And we will also agree that most bots are garbage.
So bots are used for bad. And yet they can be used for good.
It is a unique form of advertisement that not only gives you exposure but also pays you back. And for the latter part it is being abused.
And it gives you exposure in a predictable and systematic way. This way you can gradually grow your audience and blog and have an extra monetary incentive to put those extra hours until a bot vote is no longer relevant or needed. And all that combined with massive interaction in the platform, commenting , helping out and all the good stuff.
I'd rather depend on a system than a generous vote that may or may not come. I'd rather get a vote from big or small fish that actually likes my content and not because they think I need it.
The way to go with bots is not ban them but push a hard as we can to improve service and try as much to mitigate abusers.
Or we could suggest another system. But whatever system we suggest I am afraid that there will always be abusers. And I am also pretty certain that those with big money will get the biggest piece of the pie whatever we do.
These are my two steem cents , hope I have contributed to the conversation with another perspective.
Personally, I don't think you can fix the bot services. They have been created on faulty foundations, and make the system progressively more imbalanced then it already is.
I would go for option number b "suggest another system.", one that for example your post gets promoted in a special area (like ads in google) that is actually visible (unlike the currently promoted area of steemit) but the sbd you spend actually get burned or donated to cancer research or something :P
Yes , the other system is something like facebook or google.
Bots have better ROI for the time being, so I don't see it happening. :)