Don't Fall Into The Bots Trap! - Do Your Own Research! - My MoonBot Review

in #steemit6 years ago (edited)

Inspired by the @zord189's a few days ago published article full of excitement and with the plan of using the Moonbot bot, at first, I started to type my reply as a comment under his post. But soon after, I realize it would be a way too long comment in the first place. Second, I really do believe the subject, and the issue should be brought to broader audience attention which I suppose wouldn't get if it would be left just as a comment on the post. Last but not least, I also wanted to avoid own trap (in which I fall very often) to leave the whole article type of comments under other Steemian's post, which can easily be turned in own posts, instead of leaving me with the gap of several days without any.

Important Note

This is not a post against @zord189 by any means!
I can understand his excitement very well. I have been in his shoes once, same as he excited by thinking how I discovered something that wasn't like that anymore and not as it seemed to me at first glance.
Therefore, this post purpose is only to explain why I disagree with his opinion, as well as to show you the other side of the same 'coin' and to encourage you to make your own research and investigation before placing an investment, and maybe to reconsider already made ones, no matter which bot is in question.

Upvoting Bots - Yes or NoImage Source: Own derivative work with illustration from Pixabay. Credits to alluregraphicdesign for computers-bots, used under the CC0 Creative Commons license.

Why Is @zord189 So Excited About Moonbot Bot And What Is His Plan With It?



So, let's see first what @zord189 is saying.

I was introduced to this new upvoting bot by @perennial and he told me that a frequent contributor can subscribe because it does not limit your posting and it is not pay per post type of upvotes. Sounds interesting and it costs a mere 4SBD. I used to spend more than that on goats.

Important to remember here is that the bot:

  • "does not limit your posting" and
  • "costs a mere 4SBD" (per month)

His plan is to post 10 posts per day and here is the math.

1 day x 10 posts x $0.40 x 22 days (taking into account lazy days) = USD88 merely from moonbot’s upvotes.

Divider

Why I Strongly Disagree With @zord189 And Why I Don't Share His Excitement About Moonbot Bot?



As first, posting ten (10) posts per day would surely (sooner or later) drive away many of our current followers and regular upvoters, and especially those who put us on any of available auto-voters.

Why?

The reason is very simple! If our followers and voters would have to spend their Voting Power 10 times per day only on one member (us), they would quickly drain their voting power or at least end up with not much of it for other posts of the other members.

Not to mention that every, even a bit serious, trail and group of members would also turn us down as such our activity would be considered as unfair spamming attempt to drain the Steemit Reward Pool and against common community rules and etiquette.

In other words, there is a good reason why we are advised to keep the number of our post at maximum four (4) of them per day!


Further research of Moonbot bot

Some facts

  • At the moment I'm typing this Moonbot's Voting Power is 85.30%
  • If the bot would cast 100% vote (at this moment when VP is 85.30%) its vote would worth $0.37
  • In other words, in its full 100% Voting Power, its 100% vote would worth $0.43 - where such vote in the best case scenario can be given only once per day (24 hours)
  • Going through its outgoing votes can be clearly seen that the bot by default casts only 10% votes of its VP (to those that feed it) what at the moment when I'm typing this and when its VP is 85.30% means that its regularly casted 10% vote at the moment worths $0.037
  • That $0.037 would be displayed on our post, under the menu of casted votes as $0.04 (rounded number of $0.037 as USD doesn't have the third decimal, but when post payment dues it would be calculated in our favor by its true value of $0.037 and exchanged into SteemPower/SBD according to the currency rates valid at the payment time)

Moonbot Default 10% Vote

Source: Screenshot


Why I Think @zord189's "Houston, I have landed on the moon..." Might End Up As "Houston, I have missed the moon and crashed in the space"


When we neglect "the rule" of max. 4 posts per day and go along with @zord189's plan of 10 posts per day, we would discover the following.

Here is the math

  • We already know that Moonbot 100% vote, given at the time when its VP is also 100%, worths $0.43.
  • Accordingly, 10% of that vote when its VP is still 100% would worth $0.043.

Let's even assume (although it's entirely impossible) that the bot would give us every time (10 times per day) that 10% vote worth $0.043.

10 posts x $0.043 = $0.43 (per day)



Let's even assume (in contrary to @zord189's formula where he calculated only 22 days of such activity per month) that we would manage to persist this posting consistency for the whole month, full 30 days.

30 days x $0.43 (per day) = $12.90



Quite far from @zord189's $88.00 expectations but still profitable, if we manage to stay under the radar and escape (very) possible downvotes (for abusing the system) that would revoke most of that earning if not all of it.

However, it's still impossible scenario as any Steemit account can't cast 100% vote at 100% VP ten times per day!

So, what would be the best case scenario (although I think impossible either)?

  • When at 100% VP 1st vote given with 10% power it would worth $0.043
  • 2nd 10% given vote at 100% VP would worth $0.042
  • 3rd 10% given vote at 100% VP would worth $0.041
  • 4th 10% given vote at 100% VP would worth $0.040
  • 5th 10% given vote at 100% VP would worth $0.039
  • 6th 10% given vote at 100% VP would worth $0.038
  • 7th 10% given vote at 100% VP would worth $0.037
  • 8th 10% given vote at 100% VP would worth $0.036
  • 9th 10% given vote at 100% VP would worth $0.035
  • 10th 10% given vote at 100% VP would worth $0.034
  • What makes a Total of $0.385 (per day)

30 days x $0.385 (per day) = $11.55 (per month)



That's the formula that would be possible only if the bot vote just for one member (us), starting from its full 100% power and casting a vote after vote (10 times in a row).

The best possible scenario

In case the bot wouldn't go below 80% of its Voting Power to retain its daily reproducibility and have in mind other members who are using the bot too, let's say its Voting Power would fluctuate during the day in between 80% and 90%.

  • where at 90% VP its 100% vote worth $0.39 (and default 10% worth $0.039)
  • while at 80% VP its 100% vote worth $0.35 (and default 10% worth $0.035)
  • what is an average of $0.37 for 100% vote and $0.037 for default 10% vote

10 posts x $0.037 = $0.37 (per day)

30 days x $0.37 (per day) = $11.10 (per month)



Having in mind that we have to deduct 25% of the earned reward that would be given to the bot as the curation reward we would end up with Final Total of $8.325 ($11.10 - $2.775 (25%) = $8.325).

That's the earning we can expect risking to be downvoted and losing our reputation!

Divider

How Would Look Like The Best And Somewhat Safe Case Scenario?



In case we wouldn't want to risk possible downvotes and loss of reputation and publish daily the maximum of 4 posts the math would be the following.

4 posts x $0.037 = $0.148 (per day)

30 days x $0.148 (per day) = $4.44

$4.44 - $1.11 (25% curation reward for bot) = $3.33



From that monthly total of $3.33 if we had chosen the default 50% / 50% option when we were publishing each post,

  • 50% of that amount ($1.665) will be converted into STEEM and will arrive in our Steem Power while the other
  • 50% of the same amount ($1.665) will be converted into SBD and will arrive in our SBD Wallet.

According to the Coinmarket.com and at the time I'm writing this the rates for STEEM and SBD are as follows.

1 STEEM = $0.936283
1 SBD = $1.00

That means our earned monthly total of $3.33 would be paid to us the following way:

  • 50% as 1.778 Steem Power ($1.665 / $0.936283 = 1.778 STEEM) and
  • 50% as 1.665 SBD ($1.665 / $1.00 = 1.665 SBD)



If such possibility exists, where our total monthly earnings of $3.33 would be paid to us only in SBD what would be 3.330 SBD ($3.33 / $1.00 = 3.330 SBD) it would be even more evident it's the LOSS of 0.670 SBD for invested 4 SBD, and all of that only if we manage to post 4 posts per day, 30 days in a row.

If we would post less than 4 posts per day, the loss would be even more significant.

  • 3 posts per day = $2.498 or 2.498 SBD with the loss of 1.502 SBD
  • 2 posts per day = $1.665 or 1.665 SBD with the loss of 2.335 SBD
  • 1 post per day = $0.833 or 0.833 SBD with the loss of 3.167 SBD

Conclusion

If you are prepared and would consider this as an investment in promotional purposes, as you would invest on Facebook, Twitter or any other social network than you might find Moonbot bot as one of the options.

If you think the monthly investment of 4 SBD is worth of one vote boost per post in an approximate average amount of $0.037 gross or $0.028 net value (after deduction of 25% curation reward for the bot), you might consider this bot either.

If you are aiming to reach the Trending page with your posts, I don't believe such boost would make any significant push in that direction neither bring you some higher visibility.

From my point of view and personally, it's - Thank you, but NO thank you!


Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2017


Divider source - own work

Divider

SteemitBoard Ana-Maria Personal Badges

Sort:  

@ana-maria Thanks for the playing devil's advocate. As a MoonBot Pilot here there are a few key pieces you are missing and a lot of incomplete data which came up on our radar here at the MoonBot camp. Also, really quick we aren't a bidding/auction bot/ or paid upvote bot - we are a subscription based bot which is way different and can't be compared to the other's in a fair manner.

  • We are the only bot that let's you cost average against the Steem price over a month, not just in one day push. The advantage should go to the individual as the price of Steem should rise throughout the month.

  • We haven't the amount we are looking for in SP ( even under this model it still works ) . Also, posts get exposure more consistently with this service vs. just one-time shot with an uv bot/bidding bot.

  • "25% curation reward for bot" false our bot upvotes after 10 mins which means more money to the author.

You also forgot the MoonBot curation trial and ReSteem services that is attached to this service. The calculates to 32 cents per upvote re: of SP.

There are a few other things that you wouldn't , or couldn't pick up yet that is happening with this bot ( I plan on explaining in another post ) such as no comment spam. I noticed your post has about 4-5 bidding upvote bots and looks ( in my opinion ) horrible.

As for the post limits it just means better quality posts and limit's spamming any old post and upvoting it with a bid bot that provides no quality. Any post can get a bid bot to upvote regardless if it has any value. MoonBot can help with this.

Like I said, getting a feedback is fine and I'd like to offer a free sub so you can try it out for a month and get back to us :)

/ MoonBot Pilot /

Also, please refer to our post about the moonbot Curation Trail, with pictures to prove that altogether Moonbot and Moonbot Curation trail are worth around 32 cents / Upvote . It's included in a Subscription

https://steemit.com/steemit/@moonbot/moonbot-update-curation-trail-added-up-to-32-cents-or-more-an-upvote-to-all-subscribers

Yeah, what they said! (By the way I am on the spaceship heading to the moon too!)

Have a nice week!

Fly me to the moon~ & will be dancing in the moonlight~

Loading...
Loading...

Excellent analysis and good break down of the maths. I agree with you its not worth it. You cannot make a profit from upvote bots. I have tried and you just cannot. They are only good for boosting your post to get into the 'hot' and 'trending' categories.

Qurator
Your Quality Content Curator
This post has been upvoted and given the stamp of authenticity by @qurator. To join the quality content creators and receive daily upvotes click here for more info.

Qurator's exclusive support bot is now live. For more info click HERE or send some SBD and your link to @qustodian to get even more support.

I've largely stopped using upvote bots these days. I don't object to others using them, and I'm not 100% opposed to ever using them again, but they do feel like they're violating the spirit of Steemit, if not the letter.

I agree with you that they are violating if even not killing the spirit of Steemit.
I think, creating some good curating team/s with quality curators might be much better. But it's very hard to find good curators who would persistently dedicate a certain amount of time and effort (especially on a daily basis) to make that work done.

Playing the system or trying to play the system is never a good way...

That's true for sure! But to be honest, I don't think @zord189 published that article with the intention to play the system. I just think he didn't see the whole picture and for sure (in his excitement) didn't think about or even less thought through many other aspects of the whole idea.

I understand what you are saying @ana-maria .
I personally try to spread out my votes, although auto-voting seems very convenient when one is really busy.

But to exploit it in that way, it is no different than an M-L-M counting the chicks before they are hatch scenario.

And from what the keywords you have pointed. It seems to show more like an exploit plan than building solid support.

I am actually happy that I have turned off most of the training auto-voting, only selecting a few who I know does not post often but every post is very much well every VP of my vote.

Thanks for laying out the important vigilant caution to the public. Exploitation isn't the way to go.
upvoted

Well, I don't think the post I'm referring to, by itself is some exploitation but some things imposed in it very likely might inspire some members to go in that direction that wouldn't bring any good neither to those who might choose that path nor for the remaining Steemit Community members.

However, thank you for the understanding and support.

In the words of The Rock, "I'm picking up what your laying down". Math makes sense. Was interesting to see "defense" comment above along with supporters. Wonder if they will still feel the same after paying 48sbd on the year vs gains of the bots up votes. Anyway, this new member is pretty much sold that using a bot for up votes is not the way to go. I would like to know your call about steemfollower. Full disclosure, I am using it already. Think its been a fair trade reading posts through them and up voting 5 of them per day. Plus have gained followership fairly equal to whom I have followed using it. Do admit the follow aspect does seem a bit forced the follow relationships might not last. Guess what I am asking is there something in the fine print that you know that I might be to green to see. Thanks

lol - Your comment really made me laugh.
However, but for the sake of the truth, in the math that I lined down in the post I really didn't take in consideration the other accounts/members who are supporting the project and which were highlighted in the "defense" comment as you call it. So, I made a new one.
The results show it would be profitable even if you post only one post per day, 30 days in a row or at least break it even if you miss few days, and in case they really keep providing the upvotes at the value mentioned in the ("defense") comment. The only problem is that at current setting such scenario is not sustainable for long what I explained in my reply to that "defense" comment.

Regarding Steemfollower, I have been asked for review it long ago but didn't have time to do it as I didn't test it al the way through. I'm screening it now or better to say only half of it, as the Following part of that systems looks a lot to me like some follow4follow scheme which I don't like. Besides, I don't believe such fellow-followership may last for a long run. I still rather collect my followers one-by-one as I believe most of them (collected that way) are those to stay and keep. Even like that, there are some members who would start following you just waiting for your follow-back and if it doesn't happen in a day or two they would unfollow you (some very impatient once even inside few hours). And I think with a system like Steemfollower is that unfollow ratio may be only larger, so I'm staying away from it.

Regarding the upvote exchange part of the same system which I'm testing now the situation is a bit different. As it's not some pure vote4vote system, if nothing else because you are not forced to vote and you can pick which articles you want to upvote, I find it more like another free promotional place. The only problem that I'm facing is to find 5 quality articles each day as there are a lot of scammers there with copied/pasted articles, a bunch of plagiarism or all other sorts of low quality or even complete BS posts.

Wow - you put a lot of analytics in there - great summary - another bot? Never heard of that one.

@moonbot
That is where we are :)

hahahahaha - yes I did. And now I put it even more. 😉

Thanks for the analysis - maths @ana-maria that i also have done myself many times so far for the various voting bots. My comment is for your question in the main banner of your post. In short, bots are a very profitable business for their owners who becoming more and more greedy as the demand increases, collecting the hard earned SBDs of the steemit users and returning almost nothing regarding what they get.
To your main question i would surely say YES to the Voting BOTS because for the majority of the steemit users are the only way to give some value to their posts and get them noticed, but on the other hand i expect a reaction of the steemit community against the way they are working now and the returns they give.
For me, bots must return 2.5X to 3X or more your investment to be acceptable and all the steemit community must act in this direction and require this. Maybe a rule in the steemit whitepaper requiring this, for those who want to run such businesses, could definitely resolve the problem.

Yeah, I noticed long ago that you cracked it down pretty well especially in their somewhat early or earlier phase. 😉😊 And I'm also noticing you are now more and more away from them, using them occasionally.

I don't think the return ratio is the only problem with such bots, although I agree with you when it comes to what would be acceptable return amount. I think the problem is also that those bots don't check what are they voting for, in fact. And from my point of view, it might be even the bigger problem as there would always be some "smart" one with enough money to boost his/her BS.

And regarding all of that, it would be really nice to have some clear rules in Steemit White-Blue or whatever-paper, along with some other missing rules and guidance which absence just encourage people to play or even abuse the system.

I focus only to the voting bot returns because i consider very difficult a fair judgement of the posts, because people make judgements regarding to their interests and voting this way. In such case the good posts related to the interests of the users with big voting power would always get big upvotes, but the other will never have a chance for something better.

What i want to say is that if you do not like soccer and contests you will never give a vote or a bigger vote to my posts, and if i am not familiar with art, i will do the same for the art posts even if a post is perfect. This way the final value of the posts will be directy connected with preferences of the people with the big voting power - in other words to those who have the "money".

I think that paid votes are a solution to this problem but not the way they are working now. Can be considered as a chance for the minnows to give some value (paid) to their posts and get noticed. (With all the dangers that you mentioned in your reply that really exist).

Additionally i also see the paid votes as an investment to the steemit platform, if they give you back a reasonable profit that at the end returns to you as steem power and SBD. In any case, these rediculus returns of the voting bots can not be considered as investment. The only people that profiting are their owners against all the others.

Some things are obvious, but generally the resolution of this problem is not easy, because many things must be considered before any final decision.

I can agree with you. There is only one thing that I apparently didn't clarify enough.

lol - Although I must say that the idea of some art critic reporting the soccer game or vice versa, same as it would probably be when the boxing reporter makes a ballet play critique, really made me laugh.

However, what I meant by "checking what are they voting for" was more in direction of abusing the platform in some obvious scammy or spammy way, not original (copied/pasted) content and other same or similar plagiarism or even copyright infringement actions what from my point of view would be posts like

  • one-photo or one-video posts with the somebody else's photo, graphics, illustration or video taken (copied) somewhere from the web and just copied/pasted here
  • complete texts or larger portion of it also just taken from elsewhere and copied/pasted here

There are some other spams, scam, fishing or similar things that should be taken in consideration when performing those checks, but above two I find essential if Steemit still is the platform for original content creators.

Besides, if someone wants to make money just for sharing somebody else's work they can easily go to Adzbuzz.com and they wouldn't even have to bother with text formatting and stuff. They can just copy/paste the link (almost the same way as they would do on FB) and they would have a chance to be rewarded for that. If they only seek attention, there is no point in leaving FB, Twitter or similar and coming here.

But if they want to be rewarded for the original content than they should create one, no matter if it's in the form of just one but own taken the photo, painting, some crafts creations, organized challenges, contests, tournaments or pure text articles.

That's at least how I see and understand this platform main cause.

I agree with all the points in your last reply :)

Coin Marketplace

STEEM 0.27
TRX 0.12
JST 0.031
BTC 61757.83
ETH 2905.75
USDT 1.00
SBD 3.62