Consensus Reached for Hardfork 17+18! The New Features are Yours on Thursday, March 30th at 11am EST!

in steem •  last year

Hi there,

It's official. We've come to a new consensus with the witnesses. In fact, we’ve become so much better at reaching consensus, today we’ll be giving you TWO hardfork upgrades for the price of one :). We added in community requested changes into code numbered 18 rather than 17 for purely technical reasons. Here are the major changes for 18:

  • The comment reward pool will NOT be activated in HF 18
  • Upvote lockout has increased from 1 minute to 12 hours
  • Plus all previous HF 17 updates

What's most exciting for me is how we worked with the witnesses to accomplish this. There will be a new hardfork protocol that reflects the lessons learned here, but that's for another post.

This hardfork has been a huge one. Let me specify the good things you’ll get from it:

  • Delegated Bandwidth: You can now delegate any part of your SP to other users to vote for you. Whales, this is your cue to sponsor the best curators and content creators you can find!
  • Arbitrary Reward Splitting: Yes, reward splitting is here. Now you can monetize any app you build on Steem!

I hope you're all as excited as I am. Barring surprises, the next announcement from the marketing side will be on Friday.

-Ned

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Delegated bandwidth gives us a lot of curation options, while arbitrary reward splitting really opens the path to building businesses on the Steem blockchain.

I can't express how excited I am to see reward splitting finally here. Giving devs and business-people monetary incentives is going to have amazing consequences.

Get thinking Steemians! New pathways open up right now!

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Yeah it can lead to a lot of adoption of the currency. Steemit is great but when steem is used around the net for different things that is when you will really see the value increase.

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Precisely, that's the network effect at work. Arbitrary rewards are the gateway to useful services that appear 'free' but are in fact compensated with a % of the Steem rewards. It will be a big deal.

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Yeah I can see it having a lot of potential for growth. Ad revenue used to be one of the only ways to compensate people without charging a fee, that and companies that sell your information. You guys got a new model that not only is efficient but can run on top of ad revenue. I see big things.

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Doe that have to be with an app or can say two people work on something and split the rewards when they both post it?

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The back end will be ready. But still need a UI. So stay tuned.

Edit: only one post, not 2 people both post a post.

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Why cant we both post it?

Since we will have different followings... So if I do a shoot with a model and we want to split the payout we both can't show people what we worked on?

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What you'd probably want to do then is:

  1. One of you make the post, along with splitting it's rewards.
  2. Whoever didn't post it, resteem it.

It'll be a single post, no duplicate content, and all of both of your followers will see it.

You could even get fancy and create a 3rd account and both use that to post, use it as a blog/pen name, and always specify a 50/50 rewards split between your two primary accounts :)

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Of course you can post 2, so there will be 2 posts, and the reward splitting is for each post.

Edit: perhaps one person post, the other resteem it, so followers of both will see that post.

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Ok great! That makes sense then. Awesome I look forward to this then :)

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I had thought about this same thing. Shared earnings with fellow steemians. Be great for community building.

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That's a good idea. I'm sure it's in the works too.

Hello @Steemitblog and friends.
Thank you @Steemit and everyone involved. I have a lot to thank this platform for. Steemit has taught me about crypto-currencies and encouraged me to buy my first bit coin. I am currently the proud owner of 0.4 bit coin.
I have a couple of things I'm hoping the community could help me with. (Please let me know if this is the wrong place for me to ask such questions and I will happily delete)

1 Could someone point me in the direction of an easy to understand reference guide for the steemit platform? Thanks

2 During this years Cicada 3301 puzzle apparently a new type of algorithm for a new type of decentralized encryption was revealed to us. It is way over my head. So I was hoping some of you clever crypto people could check it out and tell me what the heck it is and is it as important as Cicada claims.

I have made 2 recnt posts about it here and here (Apologizes for the spaminess of this comment but I generally don't know where to go with this)
Thanks

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Hi @fortified - Here is a faq https://steemit.com/faq.html
I find sometimes it is easiest just to make a post and tag help when you need assistance.
Also some of hang out on various chats. You can usually find someone alive at https://discord.gg/eYQ9R We can answer a lot of questions.

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I've just recently started a Dicord so that is mighty handy.
Thank you kindly.

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Here is another good guide that has a lot of useful info: https://steemit.com/welcome

Congrats! Looks like many things are falling into places. I appreciate your implication in this, @ned, and if these hardforks will go as expected, my overall Steemit sentiment will turn from "neutral/bad" to "moderately positive".

I also noticed the flagging trend is taking a break. This flagging thing is the only obstacle preventing me from engaging more with the platform, both at the promotion / content creation level and at the governance level (being a witness who supports a community which promotes non-values is not on my list).

All the best!

Sounds pretty exciting, it will be interesting to see how people use delegated bandwidth. I am just curious how the curator reward will be split between the Whale and the delegate.

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There will be no reward split in HF18 - just the ability to delegate.

That could possibly come at a later date, but it would need some discussion and engineering ninjary.

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It will be interesting to see if they do it out of kindness or if some other payment system is setup outside of the steemit structure.

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Yeah it will be interesting. It's a new tool to use, and it's really up to all of us on how we want to use it.

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4 post limit is gone.

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As the OP says, all of the original HF17 is in HF18, except the split to comment pool. This means no more 4 post limit. (if I remember correctly)

  • Plus all previous HF 17 updates

so something that Streemian is doing will be built in here? Delegated Bandwidth: You can now delegate any part of your SP to other users to vote for you. Whales, this is your cue to sponsor the best curators and content creators you can find!

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To the best of my knowledge, please feel free to point out errors.

FeatureStreemian/followingDelegated SP
Who gets curation rewards?Follower****Curator
Delegate to multiple curatorsYesYes
Voting strength decided by*FollowerCurator
Can delegate SP being powered down?YesNo
Can power down already delegated SP?YesNo
Follower can vote on other posts with delegated SP?YesNo
Delay between votesYes (bot speed)No**
Time to cancel delegationImmediate7 days***

*Though the follower/delegator can choose to delegate a set amount of SP.
**It would be as if the SP was yours - your vote counts the delegated SP. So, yes, if a whale delegates to a minnow, a minnow might see their vote push up the pending payout by several dollars.
***The delegation is canceled immediately, but it'll be 7 days before you can use the SP to vote again.
****The curator also earns rewards from their own SP. However, follower gets to keep all rewards from the delegated SP, depending on the position of the vote. The curator does see increased curation rewards contributed from votes added by the follower, but limited by the SP they own. In the case of Delegated SP method, curator keeps all curation rewards directly, from SP they own + delegated to them.

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You're correct. This feature is a gift for the real curator but not the original SP holder.

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Yes, pretty much. Of course, the original SP holder can cut a deal with the curator to have X% sent back in Steem over time. Or it could be built into apps like Streemian's Guilds to account for the splits automatically.

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Yes, that's possible -- an off-chain solution before we implement it on the chain.

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Can delegate when powering down? Yes No

I think this doesn't apply to new SP awarded since starting the powerdown, as the powerdown calculation is based on the total at the time. So if you are powering down, throw on a few thousand SP, this extra can be delegated. Also, I'm not certain, but I think you can set how much of your SP you are powering down, I could be wrong about that.

"Delay between votes" is kinda irrelevant in this because the delegated SP is de facto the possession of the curator.

Yes, it's important to note that delegating SP benefits the SP of the curator, not the delegator. Also, with Streemian, the operator gets their own (should be larger) share of the curation rewards and followers progressively get less the later the bot puts their vote on.

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I think this doesn't apply to new SP awarded since starting the powerdown, as the powerdown calculation is based on the total at the time. So if you are powering down, throw on a few thousand SP, this extra can be delegated. Also, I'm not certain, but I think you can set how much of your SP you are powering down, I could be wrong about that.

Yes, I worded it wrongly. Hopefully it's clearer now.

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In the case of following, both get curation rewards. The reward to the curator is boosted by the followers but the folowers can get some too (progressively less for those later in the chain)

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That's true. This comparison is from the perspective of the delegated/followed SP though. Added a clarification.

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Not the same thing really. Delegating Bandwidth I believe is Ned talking about Delegating SP/Vests. You can basically lend someone your SP, and they can use it to participate on the site and distribute rewards/earn curation.

This is awesome news! So glad everyone came together... which also reflects super well on the overall community as actually being "a community," when viewed through outsider eyes!

This also seems like a great "marker" for going out and telling others about Steemit!

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Basically, as far as I understand, one can't upvote their own post for the last 12 hours of the 7 day payout period for a post to prevent them exaggerating their rewards. This way if someone does upvote themselves in a way the community doesn't like, they have 12 hours to counter that action.

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No one can upvote a post in the last 12 hours from what I understand it to be, only downvotes.

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So this is not the same as the extension period we had before to allow time for alternative votes after a last minute whale vote.

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I believe this is part of the move to the uniform 7 day payout period. What you're talking about was how post payouts were extended. With 7 day payouts all posts have 7 days during which they can earn rewards. Which created the issue of people knowing exactly when their last chance would be to exaggerate their rewards without risking a counter vote. If there was no lockout period everyone would wait till the last second of their payout period and upvote themselves, or create bots to do the same, and the community would not be able to counter that decision. The lockout prevents that pretty inevitable scenario from having to play out.

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I'm pretty sure the lockout you're talking about is exactly what it is, not sure if @andrarchy is correct here.

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It means "review period" on posts that have pending rewards.

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That's fair, good way to counter bad content.

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sorry.. can you explain what the 'review period' does?

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Review periode = Lockout time. The period the community has to decide if an upvote by the post creator is a valid one, or needs to be countered (flagged). With the 12hrs lockout, the review period therefor is 12hrs.

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so if one or more wish to be a dick during the last 12 hours and downvote ... none of the community can counter... that is no benefit ... i'm disgusted that option is being allowed.

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Let's see in reality how this works out. Maybe such cases shall be reported and recorded somewhere

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yeah.... so we can turn on 'downvote' mode for 12 hours. yeah... silly thing. I agree with you. Downvote first and then 'upvote' mode on...... I can not understand with this policy. Nice ! :)

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Let's see in reality how this works out. Maybe such cases shall be reported and recorded somewhere @sneak

Don't need to get hit by a truck to know what happens when you get put in front of it. There is a great big window for anyone who wants to be a dick to play .. doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

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When not having a window, the system can be abused in a different way through self upvoted just before payout time. Not everything can be contained by software rules at the same time. My take is: lets try this. Lets report on abuse. When abuse is substantial, then try a different rule.

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sorry. I still confused about "review period", is this mean we are can not upvote for 12 hours after author launch their posting. Nice :)

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it means that that no one can upvote your post during the last 12 hours before the 7 day payout period ends. They can only downvote.

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When not having a window, the system can be abused in a different way through self upvoted just before payout time. Not everything can be contained by software rules at the same time. My take is: lets try this. Lets report on abuse. When abuse is substantial, then try a different rule.

Since when is upvoting your own work not acceptable? The editor will default to an upvote until you uncheck it. So, upvoting your own work at any point shouldn't be an issue. And most certainly not one that gives others 12 hours to downvote you in.

I disagreed with a single 7 day payout from the outset. So now, after waiting 7 days for a payout everyone needs to wait out the last 12 hours and hope that one or more dicks don't decide to downvote because there is no recourse to counter it. And no second payout period to regain the downvoting. That is disgusting.

And just who is one going to report the abuse to that you are waiting to see if it happens? It's not like there is some central control that can decide and counter it.

It will only take this happening to a few for others to decide to walk away. Bad news travels much faster than good.

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This whole thread of comments is full of misinformation :)

It's totally fine to vote on your own posts, and this change has nothing to do with voting on your own posts.

All this means is that for the last 12 hours in the 7 day payout window, no one can upvote that post, people can only downvote.

It creates a 12 hour window that the community can decide if a post was overvalued or abusing the system somehow. Without it, a whale could vote on an abusive post with 30 seconds left and award it $100, without giving anyone a chance to witness/counter that abuse.

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Honestly, I don't think too many posts are read at AFTER an initial 48 hours anyway so post payouts at 7 days is...well, IMHO overkill. I'm sure there are going to be a few assholes who will downvote within the last 12 hours but after seven days? I really think the post will be out of sight out of mind.

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Abuse shall be recorded by either the community or Steemit Inc; whoever. Based on abuse levels, the community together witg Steemit Inc shall take appropriate measure, for instance changing the software rules

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This whole thread of comments is full of misinformation :)

@shadowspub @jesta My bad. Misinterpretation from my side. Sorry for the confusion.

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I like this change!

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just wanted to ask the same question @beanz

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Did I read that right the first Pay Period is now 7 Days?

How is that going to change anything? Most posts make very little in the second pay period. It just seems now it will take longer to get paid if I understand this correctly.

Ongoing payments for as long as the content is up is what we need.

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@sneak mentioned that this change is related to scalability in another thread. Simplifying this makes it easier to bound the memory or something.

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Absolutely agree. Old posts should be rewarded and brought back into trending if somebody in 2 years finds it good enough to upvote or interact with. The chances are still low, but they should still be available.

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This is how content creators make their living. All Youtubers and Bloggers make money off of their content as long as it stays up. That's how you build real income. Getting paid once or twice is no a good model for a content creator and smart content creators that produce quality content know this.

This needs to change.

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Totally agree, again. I've said it many times before, the limited payouts create an ephemeral culture - not a long-term forward thinking culture.

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Once Steemit grows by multiples it will make huge difference also not locking comments on old threads. That makes no sense. Art does not expire, recipes do not expire, music does not expire. People should still be able to vote, comment and the author get paid perpetually as long as it's up and generating votes.

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Not only that it takes away the almost "Instant Money" appeal to get people started today. We live in a culture that wants instant results. There goes part of the appeal sadly for many people. So we lose 21 days of payout and have to wait a week. This to me in not an improvement as a content creator. One can only hope the price of Steem goes up to make up for this.

But I do love that we can have split payouts now.

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Agree. I have YouTube videos that are 5 years old that are still being viewed daily (recipe cooking vids) and still earning money daily.
I hope this can be fixed at some point.

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That's really the entire point of being in the content creation business, recurring income from a library of work.

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If I'm correct, I believe the first payout (at 7 days) is the ONLY payout.
Personally I would love to see a compromise. If we get to the point where users have a true profile page, I would love the option of selecting up to 10 posts for indefinite payouts with the ability to rotate them if I want to. Heck, I've got a couple tutorials on the Welcome Page. It would be nice to have some residual STEEM come in! But I'm not complaining. Hopefully this will reach consensus in the near future.

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They should all be infinate payout if Steemit want to bring big name quality content creators on board.

Right now Steemit is almost like a Casino every one hoping Steem will take off and make them rich. That's not a good model for long term success or sustainability.

You think big name bloggers would bring their following to place where they can get paid only once or twice and take them away from their blog where ads pay perpetually?

Only if steem was insanely high price with payouts like they had before they might and then as soon as it dipped they'd go back to focusing on perpetual income.

If steemit wants quality exclusive content and users with followings it will have to make the payout period perpetual in my opinion otherwise it will be used as just an additional place to post content that is already elsewhere.

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I think a lot of people agree with you, but the first step in this process is also making it so payouts can scale to millions of users.

Changing to a 7-day payout window (singular) helps push us towards that goal. We can push for infinite 7-day payouts after HF18, though from what I understand, there are more technical hurdles that need to be overcome before it'll work.

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That is indeed very logical view. I do like to understand the reasons why this is not the case. Technical? Abuse prevention?

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Yes. You can move 7.6% of your SP to another account every week.

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That is in fact a good reason! Thanks!

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And you can delegate 100% of your SP to another account every week!

From no updates to two, when you guys are ready you move fast.

Flaming hot donkeys! The comment nesting limit! Its been a long farewell but golly I am glad to see it go (and yes I know its now 255!)

Viva consensus!

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Super indeed!

For a next release I opt for:

  • better view of comments and replies, more like folder view and list of posts commented/replied on
  • detailed search on own comment/replies/post

Reason: Google search does not work that well, espacially not for very recent work

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Yeah, comment nesting will be mess :D just kidding
Which gives us, UI developers challenge to make it less of an issue...

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Lol, it does give you a mighty challenge but I have no doubt you will rise to it like a phoenix from the ashes! :O)

No reward curve changes in HF18?

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I'm wondering the same.

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What a shame hopefully 19 is soon

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No, not in HF17 or HF18. Hopefully soon!

IMG_2525.JPG

Why yes, I may pop one of these to celebrate!

Great job in reaching consensus. I'm looking forward to the changes.

QUESTION

How will existing/current posts be handled if there is a pending 30-day post payout?

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Those posts will still be paid on time.

//Edit: one exception, for example, if you reply to a post which is 28 days old, you'll get the reward after 7 days but not 2 days.

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Thanks @abit! Good to know :)

Still no change to the curve but at least no splitting and countermeasures against whale's upvoting their shitpost, that put the tool in our hands. This is a step in the right direction. I just finished my compleat witness docker management system, just caught the last bug and now it only needs documentation - and my primary node was out of date anyway (and I'm upgrading it from ubuntu to arch as well), so a rebuild was going to happen anyway. Now it can be to 18! woo!

If only I could now bloody get to sleep and stop playing with my computer.

Hi there @ned thanks for posting such good news, also thanks for all the hard work of the @steemit team. I did a Spanish translation of this post. As the Spanish community is getting bigger, they also need to be updated with every news. I excuse myself for not asking you permission before, to translate it (which is the way I do it, always), but I guess that you being so busy and some news just need to be released very fast.
Thanks and have a nice day!
the Spanish post: https://steemit.com/spanish/@theghost1980/consenso-alcanzado-para-hardfork-17-18-las-nuevas-caracteristicas-son-vuestras-este-jueves-30-de-marzo-a-las-11am-hora-del-este

What's most exciting for me is how we worked with the witnesses to accomplish this. There will be a new hardfork protocol that reflects the lessons learned here, but that's for another post.

Others are cool, and this will be a great addition. Great job guys!

Very good news @ned, thanks for sharing and look forward to see it all in action while evaluating the results of it all too. Namaste :)

thx for the update. I believe the insentive: Arbitrary Reward Splitting: Yes, reward splitting is here. Now you can monetize any app you build on Steem! will bring a lot new features and interesting things to come soon...

Great news, when will the wittnesses adopt the new code?

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The code was released this afternoon (EST), so many witnesses are still in the process of upgrading. Many should show up over the next 24 hours I'd imagine.

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Thank you! I appreciate your communication.

Great achievement!! Good to see!
Looking fwd to see HF17 & 18 implemented.

Woo hoo! Steem On!

Great work, everyone.

Cool. Let's unite and move forward now. Even if things don't work as planned we can always change again. Right now we need to try out new things and see what works best - it will be much harder when we are bigger.

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I agree, the more we work together the more likely we will be able to get through challenges and growing pains.

Will the steem power delegation limbo also increase by 12 hours?

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?

Edit: for the 12 hours thing, please read @andrarchy's replies to this post.

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The limbo for steem power delegation isn't changing afaik.

Great work guys. I'm exited to hear what's coming Friday.

Steem on!

39 years later and we have some progress. I look forward to seeing the community grow much more over the next few updates. Changes that will be coming to the community and site I'm really excited for.

Great news for all Steemians!! Thanks guys!!

Hell yeah! This is good news. :)

Good to see the powers that be are still engaged at the helm...

This is gonna be good. Looking forward to seeing how the designated steem power works.

Great news. Onwards and upwards!

Wow HF 17 going to HF 18 from teenager to adult speed!

Steem to the moon!!

Excellent news, great job Steemit.

Awesome work Steemit Team! Looking forward to more announcements come Friday. Shaping up to be a busy week :)

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Indeed

It seems to be on.
edit: Nice subtle shot at Yours also :P

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Nice edit :V

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I edit good!

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It's a Skill

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Meaning the Competitor of Yours . As related to the title, " New Features are Yours on Thursday, March 30th at 11am EST!"

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Hah, part of me doubts that was intentional :)

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Not at all. Yours is founded and run by a friend of mine (the indomitable Ryan Charles), and we see each other as targeting different markets and use-cases.

Theirs is a bitcoin-using paywall, ours (no pun intended) is a public-everything with its own currency.

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Oh, no I get it. I was being more sarcastic then anything. Yours as a product has its place for sure. I totally get it :)

wait and see!

Great stuff guys

That this is a new regulation from the Witnesses, I wish also to obey society.
Good job @steemitblog

What kind of apps are eligible for reward splitting? Like esteem and esteem8 ? Or streemian and autovoter?

It´s milestone week, yeah!
Thanks for the update. To be honest I am even more curious about the news to be announced on Friday :)

Wow. Love me some good news. Great job guys can't wait to see where we go from here..

Resteem.. Good luck.!!!

Will there be some regular updates in the beginning about how this is progressing and the impacts it has on relevant areas? Perhaps how usage trends change and any negative aspects.

Great to hear about

Delegated Bandwidth & Arbitrary Reward Splitting

Look forward to hunting for information on these.
gone to hunt for the links since I didn't notice them above...

Of course, everything is solved by trial and error. Most likely this innovation will be an intermediate variant between something big.
But if this path is chosen, then go ahead!

What about fixing the editor? People not being able to write a post seems like more than a minor issue...

This is amazing. As a new Steemian I am excited to see that new changes are being implemented so often. Thanks for all the hard work, guys & gals.

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So you were in on steemit at the right time. Time to mine with your mind!

How do you think this will affect the price of STEEM on the trading scene?

I'm sorry to ask, but I can't figure it out myself: what is upvote lockout?

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me too))) there is a discussion above in the comments))

Very good News, I have some good ideas of apps but i'm just learning coding since two week. plus i had learned html basic coding 10 days ago.

Hi there @steemitblog / @ned - we seem to have lost the rewards from yesterday. Where are they and are they going to be adversely affected? Or do they get reinstated at some stage? I woke to $0 on $35 of rewards from yesterday! There is no explanation!