Allow a 100% SP vote: the best voting problem solution.steemCreated with Sketch.

in #steem-ideas7 years ago (edited)

EDIT: It appears that a new steemit dapp has a workaround solution that effectively partially implements this idea.

My Referral Link: https://steemfollower.com/?r=2078

Allow a 100% Voting Power Vote: The Best Voting Problem Solution.

The Problem and Solution

I think steemit has an obvious content problem: Trending is full of spam articles posted by the same people.

Solution: Let users vote with 100% of their Voting Power instead of a mere 2%

  • Why not let patrons give all their voting power to a single work that they really like?
  • Why not let people who want to self-promote do that (but with a lot less spam)?
  • Why turn-off passive investors who do not want to participate in the social media aspect by forcing them suffer inflation penalties or make 50 spam posts per week?

I have split steam users into broad categories: Authors, Curators, Patrons, Investors. In the following sections I explore how allowing 100% power votes benefits these users and the community as a whole.

Allowing Authors to use all of their SP in a single post greatly reduces spam

It is very difficult to write more than one quality article per week. If an author spends an entire week on an article and wants to back his work with all of his SP he should be allowed to do that, this is a much better alternative than that same author writing several mediocre articles in a week and up-voting those individually. If the article is good the author will get even more SP from patrons and his content will naturally rise to the top.

Authors will probably NOT want to spend all of their SP on themselves because they need to interact with other community members by up-voting their followers comments etc.

Building relationships on the steemit platform is ultimately going to be more profitable than simply 100% up-voting yourself all of the time.

If perspective authors can make a one post per week commitment they are heavily incentive to buy steem. The commitment of fifty articles per week is too great for most prospective steem authors.

the alternative

Any alternative solution can be easily gamed. If you disallow self-voting, authors will form up-voting cadres that in essence are self-voting in disguise. This need not even be explicit, I could just reciprocate an equal amount of up-vote power to anyone who up-votes me, regardless of if I like their content.

There is no solution that can not be gamed other than a laissez-faire approach.

More people will curate because they can make a worthwhile time investment even with a modest amount of steem power.

A simple way to think about curation is if a lot of people vote after you. You will probably make some multiple of the value of your upvote.

An example: If you can perhaps add a early $0.1 upvote and the post is very successful you might make a 300% return on that upvote (~$0.30). (Assuming a lot of voting power follows yours)

That’s fine, but very few will actively look for good content to get that $0.30. If you are allowed to make one $5 upvote a week instead of fifty $0.10 upvotes then you can make $15 for your curation, which will incentivize a ton of people to look for good content.

When good content is promoted more people will want to buy steem and the price will go up.

When a modest amount of steem can earn people good curation rewards people will want to buy steem to take a shot at curation rewards for themselves.

the alternative

Only whales can curate. They are the only ones who can make a powerful enough upvote to justify the time sink of finding content. However whales are by definition millionaires who value their time very highly and probably don't care to spend it curating.

Investors won't have to make fifty spam posts per week to maximize their investment

Investors would be able to make a single comment once per week and basically negate the 10% inflation.

This might appear as a negative to some, but I think it is a massive positive. First, there are many investors who do this anyway, but by spamming 50 comments a week. Second, if we are welcoming to investors who do not necessarily want to participate heavily in the social media aspect, this will increase the price of steem. The price increase actually will theoretically exactly offset the reward pool loss.

the alternative

Turn off many investors who would feel jipped if they don’t spend the time making fifty comments per week to maximize their returns.

Will this cause everyone to spend all their voting power on themselves

No! You would have to assume that 0% of the user base fit in the patron catagory.

Conclusion

I have outlined how every member of the community: investors, authors, curators, and patrons benefit from allowing 100% power votes.

Limiting how users can use their SP creates problems where people can game the system. A more straight forward approach of giving people free reign on how to use their SP is the best solution. The increase to a 2% max was largely seen as a positive change by the community. So perhaps we should keep going in that direction and increase to a 10% max in an upcoming hard fork with plans to eventually increase to 100% if we continue to see positive impacts in community behavior.

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Very interesting for sure.
We obviously have problems in this community and I appreciate people and posts of which explore solutions.
I fully agree there needs to be more investor incentive and this defiantly helps with that. Thats going to bring the value of steemit up a lot for sure.
Its also difficult in community to decide what is "best" as what is best is relative according to different perspectives.
Good post discussion for sure. Will give you a follow and see what else you come up with.

I think authors, curators, investors AND patrons are all more incentivized to buy STEEM if we allow 100% vote power.

The core value of STEEM is it's ability to give you voting power. 90% of potential users don't have time to use their voting power to the max, So STEEM is less valuable to them!

If we unlock utility for those users, I think we could easily see a tenfold increase in the price of STEEM.

I can't argue with that. I don't think its the ONLY way nor am I sure it is the BEST way, but I like how you think and I am grateful you are posing questions AND solutions to help make this platform more successful!

What is undebatable is the value of steam is dictated by people wanting to buy in aka investors. So we have to provide incentive for big investment. This needs to be via people making easy money by investing. Your proposed solution does provide that.

I hope to see more stimulating posts on the topic of improving this platform!

since there is 10% inflation from the reward pool and 5% inflation to the witnesses steem is only a good store of value if you are using the utility it provides fully.

P.S my vote is not worth as much as yours but I very much appreciate the up votes and am upvoting your valuable comments and posts as well.

Agreed. Though the price would drastically increase if say "The Real Donald Trump" were to buy 100,000,000 worth of steem. Which he would ONLY do if he thought he would make money or promote his businesses.
Thats why I think advertising is the way that the value of $teem will go up the most. People buy big accounts to get their posts and the posts they want on the trending pages.

which articles are better: (a) random people who say they write superior content (b) random people who say they write superior content AND wager $10,000 on the fact?

hahahaha obviously the one willing to wager!

This is certainly interesting. I'm not sure it would work but I would love to see it tested somehow. Often the way people actually end up behaving can be counterintuitive and I can see arguments for and against it. The only problem is the granularity problem -i.e. the slider is already too imprecise for my needs, I imagine if you are a whale it might become quite useless.

I think that has an easy solution: add more granularity to the slider.

I proposed in the conclusion increasing it slowly, perhaps to 10% max next HF. With the target of reaching 100%. This way we could observe at each step how user behave and abort if something unexpectedly bad happens.

I don't think that would work at least not very well. Having a thousand steps or more would make it even harder to change the quantity.

Could have functionality to allow manually typing in an exact value after interacting with the slider?

sliderr.png

There is one element that is omitted...downvotes. Allowing accounts to use ALL of the voting power will open the door for a malicious actor to use it in a destructive way. Removing the option to downvote to counter act that opens up the platform for spam attacks.

The proposal was discussed some months ago.

Do you have a link to discussion?

I suppose a 100% power downvote could cause problems. Whales effectively already have this tool at their disposal. This would be extended to dolphins if we allowed 100% downvotes.

Minnows would have a minimal effect on a large post.

You could always maintain a max threshold for downvotes as well if they were really going to be a problem.

This is the link to the discussion that I remember:

https://steemit.com/witness-category/@fyrstikken/vote-slider-proposal-powervote

thanks, if @fyrstikken or any other witnesses support this proposal please let me know so i can vote for you.

@onthewayout Thank for sharing the link. this peaked my curiosity.

A whole 8 views! I just don't get how to steemit.

I re-steemed it so hopefully more people will see it now but yes you never know. Sometimes with my posts I do a really good post which takes days and it gets relatively few views, then I do a quick art one and it goes crazy.

Edit. Also please add a photo -makes a huge difference. Just find one that is relevant on Pixabay.

I've updated the article significantly and added a picture!

Another interesting option might be allowing voting power to keep growing even when you do not use it every day. So say instead of capping at 100% it continues to grow up to say 500% if you do not use it daily.

That is another way to implement the same idea. If you do this effectively you are making the replenish rate 4% of your total instead of 20%. So two posts per day maximizes your voting power usage, rather than ten.

So this is another way to incrementally increase the utility of steem to a more diverse group of users.. so i support either proposal.

This would not solve the problem anymore than HF19 did.

HF19 was a major improvement . Prior to linear rewards a whale vest was more valuable than a non-whale vest since voting power increased in value the more it was pooled together.

There is good content, but the problem is it is burred in spam. We incentize spam by making people vote at least 50 times per week to maximize their voting power.

Why do you think that removing that incentive is not going to help good content rise to the top exactly?

Today I got onto a project that required me to find 3 posts out of my feed with these parameters

  • 30-40 Reputation
  • 2-3 days old
  • less that $0.50 in rewards
  • good media for social media promo - good thumbnail and 2+ other media
  • attractive formatting
  • interesting and unique content

I went through my feed and found about 15 to check out based on the title alone. I only had to look at 6 posts to find the 3 I needed. The other 3 were still good but lacked enough media or proper formatting.

I get the point of this post, but for a minnow like me - the lack of support for the little guys is the biggest hurdle. None of these little people in my feed were posting anything spammy at all. I saw good content by little fishes that is being ignored. This is why I have yet to invite my content creating friends.

I love this place and will keep trying as I see the potential. Many people will not due to all the hard work for little return. If people can put all their vote into one place - I think this problem would be even worse.

I recently studied this post (with good graphics!) about the voting patterns of the big guys. In general - they do enough self-voting and voting for a small circle of friends. Please do not make it any easier for them.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@jerrybanfield/self-upvoting-by-the-top-100-authors-on-steem

for me i see less than 1 post in 100 that is a worthwhile read. so i guess that is a matter of perspective.

because we can build steem dapps it is ultimately impossible to stop people from tradding their votes. all an artifical restriction does is make it unfair and unattractive for people who dont want to go out of their way to do what they want with thier own sp

Dang! I always have too many good posts to even get through in a day. What topics do you care about? Maybe mine just get more good posts.

I saw a couple of sad ones this weekend. 20 minutes old - $200+ - all big whale votes. I decided to just not worry about it and focus on people who do share the love. Sort of surprising who does not.

Jerry Banfiield has a recent post that shows you how to check where people place their votes. Some of the whales are not worth your time to even read their posts. Others are upvoting all the good comments they get. Therefore - I will not waste my time on certain whale posts and will focus on commenting on the others when I have an interest in the topic and something to say. I'm checking these charts now as I go and making notes!

A few changed their behavior after he posted so I feel hopeful.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@jerrybanfield/self-upvoting-by-the-top-100-authors-on-steem

Not sure if this would work but you've surely backed up your argument with supporting points.

This is a good tip indeed, thanks for sharing the link, upped. I only hope that management will see all these tips and make a constructive decision. Upvoted.
Are we addicted to steemit? my latest post indicated that both of us might be and still love it...haha, feel free to see it.
Following you now in order to stay in touch and send in my support. More success.

I need to find the witnesses that support this proposal and vote for them I guess. Im sure the witnesses are decided by cadre of elite users, but I have about one-tenth of the vests need to get someone on the top 100.

Good point...I think that steem power is the key

I am still not fully sure how Steem works haha. So it's bad to upvote myself if I just started? I am no longer doing that. Reading your article got me slightly more confused. Sorry haha.

Still trying to understand and navigate through everything...haha

I think you should use your SP however you like.. and we need a system that places minimal restrictions on how it is used.

Ok, but I have to constantly power myself up? I thought there was only an option to power down? Haha, I'm confused by this part...

If you power up your STEEM to STEEM POWER, it takes 3 months divest it back into liquid STEEM.

It is unnecessary to have 3 different currencies {SBD, STEEM, STEEMPOWER}, but that is the system that is in place.

Somehow, you have just confused me even more! Haha.

I just bought some Steem coins with my Steem dollars. So, I can then make the Steem coins to STEEM POWER?

Edit: OK, so I just found the part with Steem Power. But when I power up, I will still keep those coins or do I lose them?

They are locked into steem power. It takes 3 months to unlock them completely.

Steem Power = Larger up-votes.
Steem=Liquid Currency (does not effect voting)
SBD= currency pegged to $1 USD.

I still need to learn how the peg is implemented.. but i think it is similar to how it is done in blockshares.

Ok, so after 3 months I can get those Steem back? I guess I would have to power up again to continue my larger upvotes?

Ok I think I am getting it haha. I just got 5.5 Steem with my SBD, so all the terms are confusing..

the problem is people are incentived heavily to do so

If people can't make money with quality then they'll make it up quantity. The sickest post are the one's where, "oh today I reach 666 gazillion followers". Who the hell has time to follow gazzillions of people?

https://steemit.com/satire/@pompe72/thanks-to-my-50-000-non-followers

I'm going to clean up this post a little and re-post it tomorrow. Yes, i think the main point is we should encourage quality over quantity (spam).

I think there is a little irony in reposting the same article about spam over and over.

It is intentional irony. But I cleaned up the post with an edit since it actually ended up getting some attention.

While I somewhat agree with this sentiment, I fear people aren't looking at the bigger picture. Steemit is not Steem. We're poised to see a large influx of users through multiple platforms. Quality on Steemit does not equal quality on Zappl, Steepshot, or dTube. If platforms like these market well and gain a large and active user base because people prefer photos, videos, and tweets, the earnings for long form blogging will fall off a cliff on Steemit and we should be prepared.
Even now Steemit has no interface modifications to either filter out or mark the originating source of content. People on Steemit can have a knee jerk reaction to what seems like a "low quality" post not realizing it originated from a different app with a different focus & formatting.

I would have dropped a 100% VP on the dtube announcement if i could have.

I think dtube has the potential to be bigger than steemit.

I can't say I love the idea of making the voting protocol more "investor friendly." The reason is that it really just makes it short term investor friendly. People self voting 100% are just extracting value at the expense of a healthy platform and shouldn't be catered to. Long term investors are good stewards of the platform who take actions that they hope will benefit the "share price."

At the very least if a system like you're proposing were implemented, I'd want it to benefit casual platform users equally. There are plenty of people who use Steem in the spirit of it's creation and don't monitor their voting power or attempt to maximize voting gains, etc. Rather than simply allowing a slider system to utilize all available voting power, I think a better solution would be to have voting power dynamically calculated so that everyone always uses their voting power to it's maximum. Basically voting power would always be at 0% and the value of a users previously cast votes would either increase as they were inactive or decrease as they continue to cast more votes thereby spreading their own personal rewards pool around to more recipients.

This would be negative for the "short term investor" type because they are currently maximizing their gains with scheduled self posting/voting and they also gain more via their votes directing more rewards when other users do not fully utilize their SP.

The most investment friendly protocol is one that let's people be passive investors if they want to be.

As it is now, to maximize your investment you need to make 50 posts per week.

There is no solution that will stop a savy investor from doing this. It is just impossible if you allow the creation of multiple anonymous accounts.

And even if you could tie an identity to everyone, people can create groups of individuals that optimally up-vote each-other.

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