The Tendency of the Self (Mind)
The tendency of the Self (the Mind) is self preservation and self-interest so it will ultimately act in it's own interests (consciously or unconsciously), including it's interest in experiencing Enjoyment (i.e. The Pursuit of Happiness or Desiring to experience Heaven) and it's interest in considering ITSELF good, righteous or just better (or worse) than others in some way.
The only way to truly lose self interest is through the removal of the Self (the Mind) and achieving this involves two things:
- Self-realization:
- The complete & direct realization that one’s sense of self (sense of “I”, “I am” and “I exist”) also known as the mind (ego / self) is just a thought in consciousness.
- Enlightenment:
- Perceiving the insignifance & meaninglessness of every thing.
STEP 2 requires that a person realize enjoyment & hardship are essentially the same things - the Positive & Negative sign's of imbalance.
It often takes either a lot of hardship, a lot of enjoyment or both before a person realizes that balance (Reality / Nothing) is not an experience (or Perspective), and for the enlightened it is perferable to be outside the realm of thoughts, experiences (enjoyment & hardship) and consciousness.
This artlice was originally posted as a reply to one of @lordless.exile's posts and then it was posted and refined on Humanist.xyz. If you want to read more about our ideas, please visit Humanist.xyz where every human is a Humanist.
~ @chrisrice
You have no need to thank me. I am guessing that you're tagging me here so that I can share the thoughts I initially chose not to? If that is the case then, here they are.
I question whether it is accurate to reduce the infinite complexity of the human mind to the point that it becomes synonymous with the self. Indeed I do think it fair to say that the concept of the self is a product of the mind, but it seems to me that it would take another part of the mind to observe the self as separate from it. There's also the Jungian concept of the collective consciousness, which asserts a deeper aspect of the mind that is not an individualistic agency, but something far more unified between the species. I cannot say that Jung was correct, because, the point I am trying to make, is that the mind is so complex and hard to define that to simply call it the self seems an oversimplification to me.
I am behind you in your observation that the mind is largely self-serving, however, based on my experience, it doesn't seem that the pursuit of the mind is happiness. Too often, we seem to make choices that are borne of subconscious fears and desires - choices that often lead us away from joy or happiness. I think it may be fairer to say that the mind, certainly the unthinking part of the mind that tends to autonomously respond to the totality of our life experience, is sooner making decisions for us based on the pursuit of comfort, or even more accurately, what we believe will bring comfort or avoid discomfort based upon our current perception.
This is another part that I strongly disagree with. If this were the case, then why are so many people insecure? Why do so many people fall prey to self-loathing? I do not know anyone who lives in this society and truly believes that every choice they make is righteous - at least no one who is honest with their self. For, this society has been constructed in such a way that one is led to make choices that serve ourselves and our loved ones at the detriment to the greater community, and I believe this is something that we innately understand.
I also ask the question why one would want to lose self-interest. It is of course self-interest that leads us to want a better world. Without self-interest, everything is how it should be, and there's no need to make any effort to improve things. The better goal, I believe, is to understand what would serve us best, for we have been led to believe that material wealth, power and sex is what we need. Or even the illusion of security or safety. However, if we understood that what would serve us best is a world where we all understand that serving one another is also a service to ourselves, then from there, I believe the world would start to look a lot better.
I also think it's very difficult to define the terms you have offered meaning to. But, I haven't any I could offer and be sure enough about it, so I will not try.
These are my thoughts on what you have said. I am happy to discuss them further with you, but as i implied in my comments, the most fruitful conversations are the ones where both parties are open to learning something, gain a deeper understanding, and even to finding out they are wrong. When one is sure they know the answers, better answers will forever allude them, because they won't look upon them as potentialities. This is the observation I made about the language you use - it appears you have arrived at definitive beliefs, which in my opinion, is the death of inquiry, and consequently the end of the search for truth.
Hi @lordless.exile,
I wanted to touch base with you so I could make an edit in what I wrote:
I think it is more useful to describe it like this:
The self (everyone's self / mind / thoughts & experiences including me & mine) will disappear in consciousness (the "collective consciousness" ) and we'll essentially wake up as consciousness (Self-realization I.e. discovering the no-self Self) through our own destruction.
And consciousness will eventually lose consciousness and it will wake up as nothing.. but none of us knows what that is like nor can we.
I have a more useful definition of enlightenment.. now that I am gaining a better grasp on it, and I'll update this thread soon.
I hope you got a lot of work done and I benefited from your replies 👍
Thank you
~ @chrisrice
I think if you read my most recent post you may better understand why I am lacking the will to indulge in this conversation. I mean not to be rude - it is just, incredibly difficult for me to converse with people who believe they have all the answers. I tend to speak in constant theories and so the conversation comes to a standstill really when someone thinks they know anything at all for sure, because the only thing I know for sure is that no one knows anything for sure. That's how I feel right now, at least.
This is undoubtedly a problem of my own, and not one of your making. It is one I am working on, however.
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