HF 20 - Did A Vote Below 2 cents Just Get Permanently Ignored? (ANSWER SEEMS TO BE ALL VOTES OVER 1 SP SIZE ACCOUNTS ARE GOOD)

in busy •  2 months ago

source

UPDATE

I asked a question and got some good answers. I will leave the post up if people want to read and follow along. But the 3 answers to the questions that came in (from people more in tune than me) seem to think that this will apply to 1 SP size accounts and below. So its a good thing and not a bad thing. Their answers are at the top if you would like to read their replies.





I have a question about the vote values. According to the statement in the newly released announcement about Hard Fork 20, they mentioned a change in the dustvotes READ WHOLE POST HERE:

Dust Vote Threshold Changes

The Velocity Hardfork will change how the Dust Vote Threshold works by allowing users with any amount of SP to cast votes as long as they have sufficient RCs. Votes that are below the threshold will be posted to the blockchain but they will have no impact on rewards. This will allow users to have a better user experience on all Steem-based applications by enabling them to vote any time they choose (regardless of the size of their vote), provided that they have enough RCs.

This change will make very weak votes become worth nothing. In order to treat all votes (big and small) equally, all votes above the threshold will have the equivalent amount of rewards removed from their vote. This effectively establishes a baseline voting strength that applies to everyone. In addition to making it more fair, there is also the benefit of introducing a slight non-linear rewards curve at the lower end of the spectrum (to discourage spam), while still maintaining a linear rewards curve for votes above the baseline.

Does anyone know what a very weak vote is? Is it still the current dustvote threshold of $0.019 or lower?

This change could be an awesome change for good (if they changed the threshold level to a much lower level...say 0.001) or a completely STUPID move if they are ruling out all votes at or below $0.019. I don't know the answer, but would like to hear from anyone who does know.

And if you are a witness, please state your position on this particular change. Is it good or bad? Are you voting for it or not? Minnows like me are looking for information and to learn where people stand on a rather important issue.

Note: I didn't format this post because it isn't meant to be "pretty". It is a very serious issue that I would like to treat seriously. If people don't want to vote for it, that is perfectly fine. It is meant to get information to such an important question.

Thank you for anyone who answers.

Authors get paid when people like you upvote their post.
If you enjoyed what you read here, create your account today and start earning FREE STEEM!
Sort Order:  

This sounds like a negative 👎

·

it does to me too, but its quite possible that they changed the threshold and forgot to mention it. We will see for sure though, so stay tuned! :)

·
·

We shall see
But I got a bad feeling about this

·
·
·

I'm with you. Not jumping to conclusions, but that part is really poor written at a minimum. And stupid policy if it reads true. You're right, we shall see!

·

It seems like it is not so bad at all... In fact if TCP and @sinlg are right, then we should all be happy... Only a very small account at 1 SP would be affected. I wish they would write things a little more clear. Especially if there is an "dust vote" and a "dust payout" :P

Hi.. the first paragraph states

"The Dust Vote Threshold is a rule that prevents the occurrence of extremely weak votes and was implemented to combat blockchain bloat. Currently, accounts must possess about 1 SP for a 100% Voting Power vote to successfully post to the blockchain. If a vote below the required threshold is placed, it is rejected by the blockchain. This can create a bad user experience for new users, as their votes can fail for seemingly no reason."

So.. they are just allowing people who doesnt meet the 1 SP for 1 100% Voting power to still vote. (but these votes does not contribute to the reward)

·

so you are saying that any account that has over 1 SP will have their vote counted? I hope you are right and that would be a wonderful change if true.

·
·

What I'm saying is nothing really is changed. Except people with very low SP can now vote. In the past, they would be rejected.

However, their votes will not be counted as rewards to the author.

·
·
·

ok cool... gotcha!

·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·

very cool... that is a lot of mickey mouses! :)

·
·
·
·

Great. Thanks for clarifying this important point.

·
·
·
·
·

yes I'm very glad he did... I almost jumped the gun and complained, but glad I waited for an answer :)

I think they were talking about the threshold for giving a successful vote. Currently we need at least 1 SP for a 100% VP vote else the blockchain will reject the transaction.

But after HF 20 blockchain won't reject any voting transaction if you have Resource Credit (RC) to do the transaction. If the vote was below threshold it won't affect post rewards but the vote will be there.

They are doing this so everyone can upvote posts they like regardless of their SP. So, after HF 20 an account with 15 SP can do a 1% weighted upvote which they can not do right now.

·

gotcha... thanks for the confirmation! I'm glad to have people here who know much more than me and help us to understand these things.

Not the authority here, but since I raised this question back when @timcliff was talking about a dust threshold, there are apparently two different kinds. One for voting, which this is talking about, and one for payout, which is the one Tim was looking at. I don't know if the thresholds are the same amount, but I suspect they may not be.

At any rate, what's just as interesting to me is, this is going to apply to all votes, not just the ones that don't meet the threshold.

This change will make very weak votes become worth nothing. In order to treat all votes (big and small) equally, all votes above the threshold will have the equivalent amount of rewards removed from their vote.

Or at least, that's what I'm understanding from that part of the second paragraph you quoted. If that's true, then whatever it is will come off of whatever upvote we make, regardless of whether we're hitting the vote threshold or not.

·

I hope like hell it is made to be a small number and not the current value of $0.019... I am proud of myself for not jumping to a conclusion here, but on first read it doesn't look good. I also agree with you on that point too, removing stuff just has such a bad connotation. Anyways, lets see what others can tell us about the situation and see if they are completely stupid or not.

ps... I'm hoping like hell they just don't understand how to explain things to common folks like me.

·

What's being removed from all votes is the value of the former dust vote threshold, around 1.2 SP (source).
Think about it in a way like if you have 100 SP, it will be like you were voting with 98.8 SP. If you have 1000 SP, it will be like voting with 998.8 SP. The value of the individual votes will hardly be affected as long as you have/use significantly more than these 1.2 SP. The closer you get to this threshold, the more your vote value will be affected. A vote with 1.2 effective SP will be worth nothing, while it is worth a tiny tiny bit now. A vote with 2.4 SP will be worth half of what it's worth now, etc...

·
·

Hey, @crokkon.

Okay. So it's not an upvote value that will be hit, it's the SP of the voter that will be downshifted. I may have known that from a previous update, but then got it mixed around with talk of the dust threshold here. So, in reality, as you say, the effect on our upvotes will be mostly minimal, providing we have over 1.2 SP, and obviously the more we have the less of an effect it will have.

·
·
·

yes, as long as you "use" significantly more than 1.2 SP for your votes, you'll hardly see a difference. I tried to do the math, and with votes of 1k SP or more, there may even be an increase in the vote value due to the shift.

·
·
·
·

thanks for the info and explanations! Its very helpful!

·
·
·
·

Okay. I'm glad you cleared this up for me, and hopefully anyone else reading this. Thank you for taking the time to answer @crokkon. Some of us need a little more help than others. :)

·
·
·
·
·

yes it is a very good thing that people explained it to us... and you had a good idea already! Thanks for your info too Glen! :)

·
·
·
·
·
·

Well, had I remembered the part about the SP, I could have supplied that part, too. The problem is, in this update it was sort of mentioned, but then it got into dust thresholds. There's just a lot of stuff to remember about how things work around here. How's the mainstream folks going to handle all of this? I mean, this is my first time in any kind of beta situation and while I'm picking it up, I'm not sure it's how I want to spend my time on STEEM. I'd rather just post, comment and curate, not learn how to speak blockchain and reward pool. :)

·
·
·
·
·
·
·

lol.... that is perfectly said... and I will upvote you 100% for that one! I don't want to speak blockchain and reward pool either lol

Please please steemit, get a damn marketing guy in there that doesn't know how to program anything! :D

Here's the GitHub discussion.

@glenalbrethson is correct, this is a modification to the dust vote threshold, not the dust payout threshold.

To have a dust vote you have to be effectively voting with about 1.2 SP, so it won't matter to any existing real users unless they're a new account that has voted down to single-digit voting power percentages.

It will matter to new accounts created under the new system, and the idea that it "improves the user experience" to let users cast a vote that won't be counted is kind of appalling. But once they've been here for a very short period of time they'll get past that limitation, so it doesn't matter a whole lot on a practical level.

I'm not as clear on how the flooring process works and I think it could have some unintentional penalties for high-vote-volume accounts like @hr1. But for most users it should be too small to matter much.

·

very cool @tcpolymath... thanks for the explanation... I was unaware that we have dust vote thresholds and dust value thresholds. This is a welcome program then from what I can tell. I just wish they would explain it more clearly to the average consumer of information like me!

Thanks again! :)

Bloody good line of inquiry Dave. Reading through the comments it seems you've started a great dialogue over it as well. Up voted and of course resteemed. :)

·

thanks @mudcat36... and yes it did lead to some interesting dialogue :P ... I'm glad to know the answer, it was something that was poorly written but really a good thing (or a non-event depending on what you care about).

Always good to see you and you have about 2 weeks for me to get you caught up on Monsters... so pick a time and I will help you to figure it out... I think its going to bigger than people are thinking ;)

Seems to me that's a really significant question @davemccoy, especially as it relates to bringing newcomers into the community.

I'm guessing the demand for @dustsweeper will probably go up, but I'm not sure that's the point here. There's a difference between the payout threshold (for "dust") and the voting threshold.

So if I'm reading this correctly, the WAY this might address spam is that it will no longer work for someone with 100SP to use Busy or a similar platform to cast 0.5% upvotes in some effort to put their stamp on 5000 posts a day. But that feels kind of spammy to me anyway, to I'd be OK with those votes now counting as ZERO.

But I don't think it's going to affect most people, and in particular manual curators. But I could be missing something...

=^..^=

·

I think you read this right... its not going to affect most people. Only those that vote with less than 1 SP... so I think our crew is fine. I also agree with you that it might help with the spam... and even more help with some of those steemitdefenseleague a-holes that run around giving downvotes just to get their jollys for the day.

Also nice to see my favorite cat! Tell your human to make sure you are well cared for ok?

I'm glad you asked this question @davemccoy becuase when I read this in the HF20 post I didn't have a clue what they were saying. Mind you I didn't have a clue what they were saying about creating accounts either until @exyle explained it this morning.

I read down through the comments here and the further I got the more my brain rebelled and started to shut down so I am still none the wiser.

Will HF20 remove the dust threshold for payouts or not? 😕 😂

Ta!

·

no... it won't affect us in any meaningful way... they use the term dustvotes, but its not what we are thinking about which the define as dust "payouts"... so bottom line is, we're normal and this is not a problem at all for any of us :D

·
·

Sorry @davemccoy. I am still totally confused. I didn't think this was a problem but a gift. i.e. I thought they were saying that all upvotes would now be paid out.

Are you saying that nothing has changed? i.e. Upvotes below 0.02c will still NOT be paid out?

Thanks. 😊

No idea Dave, but I'm hoping along with you that someone who does know stops by here to explain!

·

agreed... it may just be that they don't know that we care about such piddly issues... but you would think they would have explained just what the dustvote threshold number is. I mean its a specific number, isn't it? lol

·
·

You'd think there would be more specifics there for sure!

·
·
·

yes until tonight I didn't know there was a "dust vote" and a "dust payout" ... And I even am part of a project called "dust sweeper" :P

·
·
·
·

haha that's what I was just thinking!

·

we got it... much better explanations from 3 guys that know what they are talking about! :) Not a bad thing at all :D

·
·

Yep, I see that now looking through the comments! Thanks for letting me know Dave :)

·
·
·

you're welcome and hope you and Brian had a terrific day Lynne!

·
·
·
·

Thanks Dave; the day was ok, more little improvements I think...I hope!

Also not an expert, but I think that anything above 0.01 still counts towards something...I THINK. I mean with Steem values at where they are now, its hard to get a vote over 0.03 even!

·

I hope you're right but I hope they explain what that level is... The current dustvote value is $0.019 but that applies to an accumulation of all the votes. Maybe an individual dustvote has a different threshold.

And lets hope they are not that stupid to stop payouts to everyone with a vote of less than 2cents.

·

It looks like you were right... They are referring to a 1 SP size acct if the answers above are correct.

·
·

I hope so!!!

Sounds like socialism to me.

·

if you mean take from the poor, and spread it to all the rich then yes! lol

·
·

More-or-less. The belittling of the differences in value. The erosion of value in effort or currency. My vote isn't worth much, but it should still be worth "not much," and I should use it wisely, not willy-nilly-like. Like-wise, someone who has put in time and money should be rewarded with that - and able to reward others as they see fit.

·
·
·

I completely agree with you! I am sure that 99% of the regular people would agree with you. How the hell it could be any different is beyond me. We will see, I'm hoping it just reads poorly but isn't how it reads! :P

·

It appears that it isn't bad at all... you can read the posts at the top of the page to see the responses to explain it! :)

I could be exceptionally wrong here, but it almost reads like it will eliminate the cumulative benefit of small votes

·

You and I read it the same... But according to smarter guys than me, it is only applying to accounts with less than 1 SP. So it is a good thing... You can read the results above!

·
·

Well that may actually be a good thing if it stops people with multiple new accounts loading up to manipulate the voting on crap

·
·
·

agreed @sparkesy43... I think it is a good thing, they just need to learn how to explain their good things a little better and maybe everyone would know it ;)

·
·
·
·

I think there's certainly an undercurrent of mistrust when it comes to a lot of the big players as history tells us decisions haven't always been made in the best interests of the wider community if it may negatively impact the way they themselves operate (this is in no way true of all witnesses and whales, but certainly some).

To that end, more transparency in the decisionmaking process could go a long way toward altering that perception.

·

that is exactly how I read it too... doesn't mean we can read, but I'm with you on this one ;)

·
·

I really hope I'm wrong in my interpretation.

If votes below the current dust threshold get ignored at post payout, then there will be more angst amongst the small fish. So, we need to get the actual definition of what 'very weak votes' constitutes.

·

I agree with you 100% PK... That is exactly the reason why I'm bringing this up. It will be an uproar if its 2cents or less, but if there is a much lower threshold then it might be a wonderful thing. My gut isn't sitting good right now though... But on the positive side, so far no one knows anything, so no bad news either!

·
·

Ignorance is bliss?

·
·
·

lol... that is definitely true... maybe they are planning on it?

·
·
·
·

Well, it looks as though you have some decent answers in this thread already. However, just in case any confusion arises of what the real definition or threshold will be, I have have given an upvote of 1.80c for your post:) You will find out in 7 days!

·
·
·
·
·

lol... I read them... I think we're good ... and I will let you know if I get it! hahaha PK

I was wondering the same thing when I read it. My understanding previous to today's update was that they would be removing the dust threshold. Now it looks like they're just scrapping the votes. It sucks for the small accounts. I would rather see more work done on stopping people from creating bot armies and circle/self-voting with them. That's just me though.

I'm not sure what's actually going to happen though, so we'll have to wait until more information is released on it. I'm glad that my account is already built up a little because I wouldn't want to be starting on Steemit right now. I think it would be rather difficult to get going, especially if your vote isn't worth anything. Maybe it would do a lot of us a lot of good if the price tanked again ($0.15ish) so that newer people could actually get a larger stake.

No system is perfect, but let's keep hoping that the decisions our leaders make will be good ones.

·

I agree with you on so many points here Arch! We will have to wait to pass judgement til we find out the facts. And if they do take away every vote under $0.02... then I DEFINITELY HOPE we go to $0.15 steem price so that we can buy it all up and start to think about the little guys.

And I agree that no system is perfect, as for our "leaders" I will wait to pass judgement as I get more information. :P

·

It seems like it was regarding the dust "VOTE' threshold... not the dust "PAYOUT" threshold... So its actually a good thing according to people who know more than me! :D

·
·

Interesting. Good to know. Thanks for following up on it. Does this mean that they are going to start paying out dust? If they will be, what impact will that have on dustsweeper?

·
·
·

I have heard rumors they will payout everything... if so dustsweeper will be a project that served a purpose but will die :D

·
·
·
·

Awww, that would be so sad if it went away. It really did a great job of making sure that our votes got paid out and I appreciated that. Is Daniel working on another project that might take its place? Or is that still top secret?

·
·
·
·
·

lol... I don't know... @danielsaori is always working hard on super secret projects so I wouldn't doubt it! And yes it would, but I think it would be a project that will be remembered so that is a good thing that he did for sure :D

Greetings @davemccoy! Your post was randomly chosen and was resteemed because you are one of our followers. Enjoy your free resteem!

Love what we do? By upvoting this notification, you're supporting @Shareables. If you need more information about us, click here.

If you wish to stop receiving this comment, please do unfollow us.

Shareables - We resteem anything we find shareable. Always strive for quality content. Go on express and harness your blogging potential!

God bless from us @Shareables!

·
·
·

You're welcome @davemccoy!

interesting, i hope its tested.

Congratulations @davemccoy! You have completed the following achievement on Steemit and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

Award for the number of comments

Click on the badge to view your Board of Honor.
If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word STOP

Do you like SteemitBoard's project? Then Vote for its witness and get one more award!

Author, you are a professional, you have a great blog. I signed up for you and would appreciate it if you would sign up for me in return. Let's help each other to develop =) # followback