Excellent analysis. Thank you! I’ve been meaning to do a post on bot voting which I see as just another form of self voting, in many ways. I often get people who see my wallet and then ask me for advice on how to be successful on Steemit. The funny thing is, they don’t do what I do. I don’t use bots, and I don’t self vote. My vote is too valuable in terms of helping others, building relationships, and adding value here. There are long-term game theory dynamics a lot of people don’t consider when deciding to self vote. Here’s my last 180 days:
No self votes and yet, my account balance doesn’t seem to be suffering at all:
Maybe we just need to show people a better way. STEEM works as a gift economy and people will remember (and reward) those who gift them value.
Thank you, Luke, great to see another witness who cares!
Maybe we just need to show people a better way.
I think this is really an important point! New users coming to Steem are welcomed with selfvoted comments and surrounded by an ecosystem dominated by (bid-)bots. Who wouldn't be tempted to turn this into profit before having a full picture of Steem. Your statement sounds so easy, but actually doing this (successfully) is certainly a tedious task! Keep it up, you have my vote already for a while.
It takes work to build a brand, provide value, and stick around for the long-term. My hope is, over the long-run, people will wish they took steps to benefit themselves as they benefit the community. To me, anything else is short-sighted. Reputation matters and what is done here on the blockchain lasts forever.
But that is what made you great on the steem blockchain! Not only posting and commenting but also taking the time, to reply on the genuine comments on your articles. I'm only a small red fish in the big ocean, thinking that interaction in the beginning is the utmost important thing to do, and I do find it hard sometimes to reply on all the comments but I do.
First thing to do when I do login, is to check the replies which I did receive, controlling if once needs a answer, after this list has been run through it is time, to think about a new post or finding great articles!
I do whish that all the witnesses and whales were like you! A real role model!
Thx for giving the good example and investing in the ecosystem!
Of course I do! That's why I work so hard. I've been on Steemit for almost two years, and I certainly have a first mover advantage. It's confusing to me why so many people try to compare themselves with others, especially comparing their beginning with someone who has been doing this daily for almost two years. Why don't people bother to go back to my early days two years ago and see what rewards or engagement I got then? There's no free ride and no free lunch. It takes work.
Secondly, take heart! If you look at it the other way, then 80% of people are sharing the love, which sounds better. (It also reinforces this intuitive feeling I've got about the 80:20 rule - this ratio seems to crop up all over the place, although here it might only be an artifact of the specific bins you've created.)
Also, 20% of people being utterly socially selfish is actually half of what it is in mainstream society - at least if you look at charitable giving as an indicator of how selfless people are towards generalised others: 39% of people in the UK didn't give to charity last year - source.
Thirdly, I hope this gets utopioned,
And fourthly, but do I hope that because I've got your best interests at heart, or because I know I'm going to get a fatter pay-out for myself in terms of curation rewards...>? 'Sharing the love' isn't necessarily an indicator of a 'pure motive' either!
Thanks @revisesociology, also for raising the view beyond Steem and into "real life". I think your points are valid, and with that in mind, it's actually not too bad here :)
Cheers!
When money is the only motivating factor and the reason you joined steem you are very likely to want to find ways to increase your portfolio and why self-voting is so popular.
I myself am guilty of that mindset when i first started it was all about the money but that has changed. I really enjoy using steemit so much so that ive stopped using other social networks, ive met so many amazing people on the platform, learned so many new things and engaging with like minded people and experts in various fields from around the world
That in itself has brought me far more value than whats in my steemit wallet. Hopefully one day it will be a profitable excercise but for now im enjoying the ride :)
Well i think the only way to solve this is to delete the possibility to self-vote, I don't see why this should be possible anyway. Rewarding yourself seems a bit selfish.
Thanks for your comment! Selfish, absolutely, but I don't think denying self-votes would solve the problem. It would stop new users who's vote is almost worth nothing to add that little bit to their own posts - that doesn't make a difference. Create 1000 accounts with steemit delegations and let them vote for you, that may be profitable, without a single self-vote. For everybody with own SP, it's easy to create another account, move the SP there and vote from that account - which is what partly happens.
True and this is very hard to track, maybe there will be a way to link the delegation and the upvotes from the other accounts. If they match, maybe flagging will be a solution. But then agian, Steemit remains a decentralized platform, so technically there are few rules, but it is a shame some people only act out of self interest.
I'm just going to echo some of the sentiments already left here.
The education has to continue. People need to be presented with the facts about what they're doing when they use bid bots, self-upvote, delegate indiscriminately, etc. Then, they can make choices.
The question is, how to best do this. There are greeters guilds and other community initiatives for newbies, but then there also has to be a way to reach those who have been here for a while who could benefit from another perspective. The problem is the sheer magnitude of the task, and it's only going to get bigger.
I personally found the Steemit FAQ and etiquette pages very useful when I signed on here. If I remember right, it seems like I was taken there first upon signing in for the first time. I know we're not into controlling user experience from the UI side (thought there are plenty who do it from the user side), but it would be nice if people had to spend a few minutes perusing those pages before they could actually get started. Then, it wouldn't be a matter of not knowing. Not understanding might still be a problem, but then a disclaimer to ask for help from someone would be useful, too.
I've pieced together my knowledge and thus my stance on all these issues through reading other people's opinions as well as posts on how things work. I doubt very many people do that, or else there would be more people coming to the same conclusion—while beneficial to a degree in the short term, frequent and prolonged use may produce side effects. I'm pretty sure nausea is one of them. :)
I agree with your arguments. Especially about reaching out to those who are already around for a while. I think the learning curve to get started is pretty steep. Steem is so much more than a traditional social network, and I can't even blame new users for not knowing how things work. I remember that it took me days or even weeks to understand even the basics and learning about new (but meanwhile much more sophisticated) aspects of Steem never stopped.
I hold out hope (perhaps against hope) that one day, that there won't be such a steep learning curve, that it will be more intuitive, that it won't require at least a partially decentralized and probably incomplete operation's manual that you have to first know exists, then locate, then piece together, then read, and then search around or inquire to fill in the blanks. Then understand. Then start over when it changes. :)
I agree, though, STEEM is so much more than anything out there. It is at least Social Media 3.0. That said, the interfaces need to live up to its potential, or at least move into the teens of the 21st century. Cutting edge, groundbreaking, built for the future would be better, though. Then, as a blogging/social media platform, it would be truly ahead of the game.
If I do see the number of people that upvote their own comments, I'm actually not surprised about this number.
Also the ones who are rather fresh on the blockchain and trying to get their posting value above the dust threshold could maybe explain a part of the self votes.
Great analysis!
Thank you, @fullcoverbetting! I agree that at least by the number of self-votes, new accounts certainly make a big share. I doubt they contribute much in terms of total self-vote rshares and I'm not sure the dust vote threshold as a possible reason for self-votes is among the first things to learn when joining :) There are so many aspects on Steem. I at least was far off the steemit-granted SP and reputation 25 until I learned about this.
That's sad. I think we should lower the earnings threshold to .01 and let new people know how the earnings system works. I feel bad for all the newbies who self vote and then get frustrated and leave when they get 0 earnings.
It's still surprising to me and seems somewhat fraudulent because I think most everyone on here thinks their vote counts. Not always! I would upvote your reply but my vote wouldn't count. :(
Excellent analysis. Thank you! I’ve been meaning to do a post on bot voting which I see as just another form of self voting, in many ways. I often get people who see my wallet and then ask me for advice on how to be successful on Steemit. The funny thing is, they don’t do what I do. I don’t use bots, and I don’t self vote. My vote is too valuable in terms of helping others, building relationships, and adding value here. There are long-term game theory dynamics a lot of people don’t consider when deciding to self vote. Here’s my last 180 days:
No self votes and yet, my account balance doesn’t seem to be suffering at all:
Maybe we just need to show people a better way. STEEM works as a gift economy and people will remember (and reward) those who gift them value.
Thank you, Luke, great to see another witness who cares!
I think this is really an important point! New users coming to Steem are welcomed with selfvoted comments and surrounded by an ecosystem dominated by (bid-)bots. Who wouldn't be tempted to turn this into profit before having a full picture of Steem. Your statement sounds so easy, but actually doing this (successfully) is certainly a tedious task! Keep it up, you have my vote already for a while.
It takes work to build a brand, provide value, and stick around for the long-term. My hope is, over the long-run, people will wish they took steps to benefit themselves as they benefit the community. To me, anything else is short-sighted. Reputation matters and what is done here on the blockchain lasts forever.
Thanks again for this post. Followed.
But that is what made you great on the steem blockchain! Not only posting and commenting but also taking the time, to reply on the genuine comments on your articles. I'm only a small red fish in the big ocean, thinking that interaction in the beginning is the utmost important thing to do, and I do find it hard sometimes to reply on all the comments but I do.
First thing to do when I do login, is to check the replies which I did receive, controlling if once needs a answer, after this list has been run through it is time, to think about a new post or finding great articles!
I do whish that all the witnesses and whales were like you! A real role model!
Thx for giving the good example and investing in the ecosystem!
Thanks for your encouragement and support. :)
Perhaps randomly reward people who don't self-vote? I like the idea.
I like the idea! Flagging those who do is a game you'll hardly win, and you probably won't make many friends on the way :)
That's great but how long have you been in steemit? Don't you think you get much reward from reputation and account age?
Of course I do! That's why I work so hard. I've been on Steemit for almost two years, and I certainly have a first mover advantage. It's confusing to me why so many people try to compare themselves with others, especially comparing their beginning with someone who has been doing this daily for almost two years. Why don't people bother to go back to my early days two years ago and see what rewards or engagement I got then? There's no free ride and no free lunch. It takes work.
Thanks for your sincerity
An excellent piece of work, with disturbing figures :(
Here's something to cheer you up, my 7 days stats:
Keep fighting the good fight!
Thanks @abh12345, so there is still hope :) Keep it up! I'm with you on the 0.00% selfvotes, but far off your vote spread...
Good stuff :D
From what I read here: https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/proposal-to-make-spam-less-profitable
I may be changing strategy on all the comment votes of 1-2 cents I issue, and this will reduce that spread.
Firstly, excellent analysis...
Secondly, take heart! If you look at it the other way, then 80% of people are sharing the love, which sounds better. (It also reinforces this intuitive feeling I've got about the 80:20 rule - this ratio seems to crop up all over the place, although here it might only be an artifact of the specific bins you've created.)
Also, 20% of people being utterly socially selfish is actually half of what it is in mainstream society - at least if you look at charitable giving as an indicator of how selfless people are towards generalised others: 39% of people in the UK didn't give to charity last year - source.
Thirdly, I hope this gets utopioned,
And fourthly, but do I hope that because I've got your best interests at heart, or because I know I'm going to get a fatter pay-out for myself in terms of curation rewards...>? 'Sharing the love' isn't necessarily an indicator of a 'pure motive' either!
Very very interesting! Thought provoking...
Thanks @revisesociology, also for raising the view beyond Steem and into "real life". I think your points are valid, and with that in mind, it's actually not too bad here :)
Cheers!
When money is the only motivating factor and the reason you joined steem you are very likely to want to find ways to increase your portfolio and why self-voting is so popular.
I myself am guilty of that mindset when i first started it was all about the money but that has changed. I really enjoy using steemit so much so that ive stopped using other social networks, ive met so many amazing people on the platform, learned so many new things and engaging with like minded people and experts in various fields from around the world
That in itself has brought me far more value than whats in my steemit wallet. Hopefully one day it will be a profitable excercise but for now im enjoying the ride :)
I guess most people start with this mindset, glad you found the big picture! :)
Well i think the only way to solve this is to delete the possibility to self-vote, I don't see why this should be possible anyway. Rewarding yourself seems a bit selfish.
Thanks for your comment! Selfish, absolutely, but I don't think denying self-votes would solve the problem. It would stop new users who's vote is almost worth nothing to add that little bit to their own posts - that doesn't make a difference. Create 1000 accounts with steemit delegations and let them vote for you, that may be profitable, without a single self-vote. For everybody with own SP, it's easy to create another account, move the SP there and vote from that account - which is what partly happens.
True and this is very hard to track, maybe there will be a way to link the delegation and the upvotes from the other accounts. If they match, maybe flagging will be a solution. But then agian, Steemit remains a decentralized platform, so technically there are few rules, but it is a shame some people only act out of self interest.
great analysis, thanks!
says steemworld. I'm happy to be on the right side of the mean ;-)
thanks @sco, great stats! :)
I do self votes for my posts, not for comments though:
Great, it does! You're far off the self-vote metrics above :)
Impressive vote spread!
I'm just going to echo some of the sentiments already left here.
The education has to continue. People need to be presented with the facts about what they're doing when they use bid bots, self-upvote, delegate indiscriminately, etc. Then, they can make choices.
The question is, how to best do this. There are greeters guilds and other community initiatives for newbies, but then there also has to be a way to reach those who have been here for a while who could benefit from another perspective. The problem is the sheer magnitude of the task, and it's only going to get bigger.
I personally found the Steemit FAQ and etiquette pages very useful when I signed on here. If I remember right, it seems like I was taken there first upon signing in for the first time. I know we're not into controlling user experience from the UI side (thought there are plenty who do it from the user side), but it would be nice if people had to spend a few minutes perusing those pages before they could actually get started. Then, it wouldn't be a matter of not knowing. Not understanding might still be a problem, but then a disclaimer to ask for help from someone would be useful, too.
I've pieced together my knowledge and thus my stance on all these issues through reading other people's opinions as well as posts on how things work. I doubt very many people do that, or else there would be more people coming to the same conclusion—while beneficial to a degree in the short term, frequent and prolonged use may produce side effects. I'm pretty sure nausea is one of them. :)
I agree with your arguments. Especially about reaching out to those who are already around for a while. I think the learning curve to get started is pretty steep. Steem is so much more than a traditional social network, and I can't even blame new users for not knowing how things work. I remember that it took me days or even weeks to understand even the basics and learning about new (but meanwhile much more sophisticated) aspects of Steem never stopped.
I hold out hope (perhaps against hope) that one day, that there won't be such a steep learning curve, that it will be more intuitive, that it won't require at least a partially decentralized and probably incomplete operation's manual that you have to first know exists, then locate, then piece together, then read, and then search around or inquire to fill in the blanks. Then understand. Then start over when it changes. :)
I agree, though, STEEM is so much more than anything out there. It is at least Social Media 3.0. That said, the interfaces need to live up to its potential, or at least move into the teens of the 21st century. Cutting edge, groundbreaking, built for the future would be better, though. Then, as a blogging/social media platform, it would be truly ahead of the game.
If I do see the number of people that upvote their own comments, I'm actually not surprised about this number.
Also the ones who are rather fresh on the blockchain and trying to get their posting value above the dust threshold could maybe explain a part of the self votes.
Great analysis!
Thank you, @fullcoverbetting! I agree that at least by the number of self-votes, new accounts certainly make a big share. I doubt they contribute much in terms of total self-vote rshares and I'm not sure the dust vote threshold as a possible reason for self-votes is among the first things to learn when joining :) There are so many aspects on Steem. I at least was far off the steemit-granted SP and reputation 25 until I learned about this.
That's sad. I think we should lower the earnings threshold to .01 and let new people know how the earnings system works. I feel bad for all the newbies who self vote and then get frustrated and leave when they get 0 earnings.
There is a lot of truth in your reply. I didn’t know about the threshold untill 3 days ago. So that’s after more then 125 days!
It's still surprising to me and seems somewhat fraudulent because I think most everyone on here thinks their vote counts. Not always! I would upvote your reply but my vote wouldn't count. :(