Whales No Up-Voting Test
Going on.
Let's see how the dolphins and minnows will play.
//Edit: I'm downvoting the posts upvoted by other whales.
//Edit 2: downvoting posts upvoted by the @steemvoter Guild.
//Edit 3: thinking about how to counteract bot voting. Bot voting includes voting for a list of authors and follow voting.
//Edit 4: downvoting @steemtrail. (Edit 10: stopped downvoting)
//Edit 5: downvoting @curie (Edit 10: stopped downvoting)
//Edit 6: some explanations here, thanks for the people who wrote them:
https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/the-whale-voting-experiment-explained-including-downvotes-from-abit
https://steemit.com/steemit/@neoxian/the-experiment-communication-required-this-is-a-social-platform
//Edit 7: some related links:
- https://steemit.com/payout/@timcliff/everything-you-need-to-know-about-potential-payouts-and-flagging-for-new-users
- https://steemit.com/steemit/@meesterboom/the-excitement-of-the-whale-experiment-why-we-should-get-on-board
//Edit 8: one more link:
//Edit 9: here is a video: https://steemit.com/live-experiment/@fyrstikken/explaining-the-whale-fasting-experiment
//Edit 10: one more link: https://steemit.com/experiment/@sykochica/experiment-thoughts-and-potential-strategies
And stopped downvoting curie and steemtrail.
//Edit 11: more info:
This is why steem needs a blocking feature. one day soon, new chains will spring up and will have this function. Then we will not have to worry about people like @abit running everyone off!
People like @abit focuses way too much on rewards and not enough on the people who help make this platform what it is. He is a bad actor, and is doing more harm than he realizes or even cares.
But hey, continue with the silliness you call an "experiment". You will find yourself a huge bagholder of 3 million steem.
Have a great day!
EDIT: You can downvote SteemTrail all you want. We do not care about your little experiment. Have fun. The community will decide what is best for US...Not you or any of your friends.
There are many people in the community that feel strongly that the current distribution of stake is preventing the platform from scaling to billions of users. There is pretty much no incentive for a 'regular user' to buy SP, because even a relatively large investment of a few thousand dollars does not provide practically any influence. Figuring out a way to make the platform more appealing to 'regular users' to invest is really a key issue that needs to be solved if we all want our stake to grow in value.
The million dollar question is how do you achieve this in a way that is fair to the original stakeholders, and does not open the doors to abuse. Here is a post with some thoughts on the subject:
https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/whales-can-the-community-buy-out-a-portion-of-your-influence
The initiative that @abit is an agreement with many of the whales to not vote for a period, as an experiment to see what happens when the dolphins+minnows get more influence. It is an experiment. It is not the solution to the problem.
If the experiment helps the community to reach a consensus on what that solution is though, then it will be doing everyone a great service. We need to figure this out / get this right in order for the platform to scale.
This is not a solution. Downvoting represents nothing that is positive for those receiving them. That is the only data that will be retrieved from this.
Ask those receiving downvotes if they think the platform is more appealing.
I received downvote to abit. Now I defollower abit.
Very sorry you had to experience this. This is not how we want to treat our users. My apologies.
I'm not sure with what authority you can say that.
I am so confused and try to understand this move
@personz its called empathy.
Did the same. Good move. More people with guts.
Following you.
The goal is for the whales to participate in the experiment. If whales don't upvote with a large portion of their stake (hence defeating the experiment) then there will be no downvotes.
Not true. They have been downvoting post that did not have any whale votes.
@abit No, I am not a whale yet - though I fully intend to become one. I have invested very large amounts into PURCHASING steempower. It is partially due to people like me, who have been buying steem all through the downturn in prices, that people like you have been able to cash out some of your steem.
I also attended Steemfest AT MY OWN EXPENSE unlike many others who were subsidized for their costs and reimbursed for some of their travel expenses.
I just came back from promoting Steem at Cryptopulco, again at my own expense. I have funded the prize money for contests on steemit in order to generate interest and enthusiasm in our platform. I have promoted other's posts at my own expense.
I have spent hundreds of hours curating and commenting and encouraging on the platform. I have never made use of a bot, but give conscious consideration to all my interactions AFTER HAVING ACTUALLY READ THE POSTS!
I have plowed everything that I have made from curating and posting right back into the platform (except for what I have donated to steemit projects or used to promote others' posts.)
Hence this, probably well-intentioned but definitely ill-conceived, experiment which can produce NO data of value because no parameters were set, is most discouraging to people like me.
DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT I SHOULD REDUCE THE VALUE OF MY VOTE TO SUIT YOUR AGENDA? IS MY AGENDA NOT AT LEAST AS VALUABLE TO THE PLATFORM?
[Nesting]
Respectful.
We all want a better platform.
Just do what you think is right.
Which post?
I think you are a whale.
Please consider lowering your voting weight.
With our efforts, your vote now worth 0.6$. Feel good or not?
Again, not one single mention of how this affects our users. This is a problem.
Based on what I have seen, the lack of communication is really the big problem with this experiment.
@timcliff what is there to communicate? "Hey, I like your post. But due to our experiment, we have to downvote you today and more than likely tomorrow as well. Keep on steeming!"
Anyway. I have productive things to do, so i will let the " Steem(it)Think Tank" get on with more innovative ideas. Peace.
Im tired of being downvoted ! Especially after working very hard on my Ham dinner food blog tonight !!! Now flagged 3 or4 times !! All it does is piss me off !! 👎👎👎
I received my downvote few days ago (we know that the experiment was started days ago, totally random as we could see watching the posts on the trending page) and I felt demotivated and discouraged. I wrote a content asking to whale don't upvote my posts, explaining (in my usual civilized manners) how a "simple (but honest) user" can feel confused after this . Not for the different payout after the downvote (5 dollars don't change my life, fortunately), but because I received it without explanation. Now, I can appreciate that a whale say me that it's running an experiment (ok, I can have my own concerns about it, but I'm only a minnow, no?), but I really hope that it isn't random and I really hope that the users are conscious that it's an experiment. I'm feeling as a lab rat, honestly.
I'm feeling as a lab rat, honestly.--->that's right
We are all lab rats, hehe. This is beta :)
@timcliff, you are right ! In my opinion there are two difference about lab rats in steemit community, mice (minnows) and big rats (whales)...ha..ha..!
Here is a good post for you to read.
https://steemit.com/payout/@timcliff/everything-you-need-to-know-about-potential-payouts-and-flagging-for-new-users
@timcliff I read the post, but,as i wrote in my comment, the problem (for me, sure) isn't the payout that can be down. The problem is to receive a downvote without explaination. As many users here, I have some years of experience on the net and as users in some communities, so I perfectly know how the human factor works. If you hurt me (yes, a downvote without explanation can hurt someone, especially the minnows), I react and the reaction, for a simple user, is usually stay away from the community (I'm not talking about me ^_^). Maybe i'm wrong, but looking around I read that one of the objective of steemit is increase the number of active users, not decrease it. There is a very simple solution against the decrease: communication. I appreciate @abit, because he wrote that it's an experiment, but it would be useful for the users if he (or other for him) explain the plan. I can guess the "why" of this experiment, but you need to understand that the human factor is really important in every community ;)
Vorrei solo sapere quanto dura questo esperimento...io non voglio essere la cavia di nessuno. Questi sono metodi fascisti... Dovevano chiedere prima
One thing that might help is to consider voting for witnesses who are not supporting this.
Change your witness vote and let them all know why.
In the meantime, it is having a positive effect on the price of steem and this is driving the power of votes upward. It just needs marketed completely differently.
You can tell people we're stomping out bot votes. They'll understand that.
Abit is voting, all the time
I'm looking at his voting history in steemd, and it looks like they are all 1% upvotes. These votes essentially put his votes at the same level of stake as dolphins - which is very different than a whale upvoting with a large share of their stake.
abit votes for my comments which is pretty much the only decent reward(s) i make now. I have to disagree with you on this. He is trying a different approach, its worth a try isn't it? It's only for 1 voting period to s. Its just interesting to see what it's like in a world without whales for a day.
No. I do not think it is worth a try. I'm open for almost any idea, however, when it comes to our end users and retention i would never agree to something like this.
@solarguy. If only you could also feel what it was like for 3 years as i worked nearly free of charge to get where i could be trusted and upvoted by whales for my efforts.
All this experiment does is teaches you about the feeling of earning rewards you havent worked for to the degree that others have...and does it at the expense of those who have proven themselves time and time again to some people who finally have some stake in a project they limely sacrificed a great deal for.
New users seem to forget this. Imagine if you had to work and post to steem for over 3 years, working a night job and barely seeing your family so you could make this possible. Then imagine someone who is new to the platform says "i think i deserve the respect and trust THAT GUY has! But i can only have it if it is TAKEN AWAY from him!!"
All benefit it looks like from the minnows side.
Why not just change the f*g N^2 rewards curve???
Jesus this isnt rocket science.
I do know the feeling of working hard and not getting to see my loved ones or do things that bring joy to my life.
I also know what it is like to spend days writing a great post to have it earn hefty rewards and also make less than a nickel.
U see i spoke out about what i saw was happening a couple months ago and pissed off every guild and whale and never had decent successful rewards wise post since. Not in 2 months. Though my following continued grow and my comments section was still a hit.
I still write about the same things and for a while after i still put in the effort.
Steemit is about politics more than content or its quality.
This experiment will prove that and so i can see why so many people are oppse it.
At the end of the day its just for a day or two. If this experiment is so bad then after its finished things will go back normal.
If the experiment has merit maybe it will change some users habits.
This isnt just to make newbies wanting a slice of the pie who just got here.
I dedicated my life to steemit. I welcomed hundreds hundreds, i gave advice and pointed people in the right direction. I promoted my fellow authors on and off the platform. I have over 470 followers. Most of my posts have very active comment sections.
I fit the description of an author who is well liked and appreciated by many here but it does not reflect in my rewards because the few people who can give me them dont like me for something i said months ago. I was not wrong this experiment will prove it.
I did nothing so bad other than expose an issue that is clearly being missed by many.
I too sacrificed my time and energy for this place. Not just the people in favour or in power
The problem is that if it were a PROPER experiment people would not be blindsided and left out (unless they are meant to be the control). What this was was nothing more tham a half assrd attempt at what? Changing the system for 2 days?
Nothing in have seen even tells me what SPECIFIC datapoints they are trying to tease from the community :P
Steem is not 3 years old, only about a year, what are you referring to here?
You don't earn rewards, they are given to you according to votes. Working hard does not equal high payout. Quality is subjective. People are free to use their votes however they want.
It's not rocket science, you're right.
Quality is very subjective indeed. I guess all social networks - including steem have the problem how good content is measured. Steem has tried with Higher Quality = Sum of (Votes * Power of Vote). So far so good. Now the value of the post ist distributed back to the voters, those with more power get back more part of the treasure.
This leads to an expotentional growth of those which are :
started earlier than others, and thus posted more and longer.
But new people can't rally up? As they always will only get some very tiny fractions from the value.
So some could even work hard, but get not much from it.
Also it creates a "class" of rich people, medium class and working poor. Is that the social network some wants to create?
Pretty much everyone I've talked to wants this to be done.
I'm sorry, I don't agree with you, any person for steeimt experiments should not receive criticism, steemit is open, why do you think @abit 's experiment is to earn more money, you're here. What do you want ? Steeimt from the highest point to an all-time low, this proves that the current steemit mode is not in the right orbit, you do not consider these issues, but always accuse others of experiment, I don't know why.
Thanks, for standing up "for the Right to Party"* or to "Post" (a joke from another steemian friend) freely, and not being harassed or used like objects.
We need people to forget the fear of losing reputation or Steem because someone decides to play with it just like it is a nickel machine, whose casino chips will have a zero value one day outside the casino.
And notice that the users are just numbers in a guinea pig experiments contest. We are not people anymore.
This system is censorship-resistant from the inside but not from the inside.
Finishing with 2 quotes from my posts
"The 1% of society rulers (minority) that are equalitarian only between them, but at the cost of the exploited 99% (majority) that are considered objects (slaves) and shows the influence of object possessions in the relation of Man-to-Man, and how paternalistic structures of things can "treat men as objects"."
"Steemit can be a model of the future in the blockchain for a more just society, because for me the real meaning of Justice is Equality and not the point of view of the Power as it is today."
Cant disagree...perfectly stated imho. Abit has really stunned me with this ridiculousness.
This is a scam, his flags are not getting global rewards lower, they are just getting the platform less attractive and the Steem lower.
What about the reputations of innocent posters that you are downvoting?
Good comment.
We all have to remember that to the value of the network must be subtracted the number the users that spam, flag and mute. Attracting and retaining augments the value of the network.
When they got upvoted their rep will increase.
I'm not going to downvote them to zero, so in worst case their rep will still increase some.
If they already have higher rep than me, my downvote won't affect their rep at all.
//Edit: just noticed that people who got bot voting from @wang and @created and perhaps some other bots wound't get an increment of rep score, so will be hurt somehow by downvoting. I guess it's not a big deal..
What about those of us who havr earned backing by sacrificing for the last 3 years for the community that made steemit even possible? Do i deserve you to downvote my work that FINALLY can get paid for?
This, abit, is a terrible experiment.
I respect your choice and I understand what you're trying to accomplish @abit but I want to take the time to share my thoughts on this.
It seems like the distribution of Steem is going well and is mostly done through the sell of Steem. Around $122,211 worth of Steem has been transacted in the last 24h. The daily author reward pool is worth only $4,324 if sold on Poloniex. (thanks to @inertia's bot for the info) The price of Steem has been going down lately thus the biggest losers are those who own the most Steem. With your experiment you will indiscriminately further put the larger Steem holder with author skills at a disadvantage.
I worked probably close to 20 hours on my next post and I put in more than 10 hours on almost all my chapters. I don't post that often. Usually when I do I get great rewards because I put a lot of time and thoughts into my posts. Not only in the redacting part but I spend all my life teaching myself about everything I could.
At first I thought this experiment might be a great experiment but after further consideration I doubt it. I don't post for the rewards yet like fuzzy I have spend a lot of time learning about crypto and that's one of the reason I and some of us were on Steem very early. I have spent the time, effort and taken the financial risk to be where I am now with the Steem I own. Most people on Steem haven't read the whitepaper once, haven't heard of Bitcoin before and it's okay. They are rarely the largest Steem holders for good reasons.
Money isn't the primary motivation for me and this will clearify in my next post but I need money to be able to advance my primary goal. I will uphold my next post in the hope this experiment will be stop soon. I hope you will consider removing your downvote if you were to realize that they didn't accomplished what you intended them to.
@teamsteem - the experiment does not take away any rewards from the reward pool. The platform will still pay authors the same amount regardless of the upvotes/downvotes from whales. All this experiment is doing is changing who gets to decide on the reward allocation. By the whales not voting (or being canceled out by other whales downvotes) then the dolphins and minnows will be the ones influencing the rewards.
Yes - and that person is primarily abit. This "experiment" is severely flawed. Any "data" gathered from it will be worthless.
I never said the experiment takes away from the reward pool. I'm not sure if you misread me or I badly expressed myself. I know how the reward pool works.
The point I made with the reward pool is that the % of total number of Steem people own are being influence more by the day to day selling and buying of Steem than by the number of Steem being distributed by the reward pool.
Also you commented below:
@ats-david ansered.
You answered
Also not all whale's votes are being cancelled either.
@abit You're sick .... groomed, call a doctor ....
Being condescending towards someone isn't a positive to anyone. We all been condescending toward someone at some point but we should strive for better. Have a nice day @sardrt!
Speak for yourself ... I'm not condescending with anyone ... Good night @teamsteem
can you try a best of three, I get it it's not your day and you are mad, still why say you aren't speaking down on anybody when you are, I'm sure there are many others that are sick and is some strange way abit seems to be the one with the doctor outfit :)
Really? do something productive.
I think this is a pretty interesting experiment, actually. And it's only for a few days, and those few days can provide us with some data that can help future decision making.
Absolutely! This Data will prove to be important.
https://steemit.com/witness-category/@fyrstikken/voting-power-to-the-people-and-curation-rewards-to-the-investors-please-bookmark-and-read-later-if-you-are-busy
I love beta-testing :D
Me too!
Let's see what happens! 🤔
I agree @schattenjaeger - data pool is important to make sure minnows and all users can fly :-)!
Wait a second here...
Does this image imply that it's possible to milk a dolphin?
almost - see you can think out of the usual silo but no @ats-david :-)
Agreed. Already we can see that the rewards are being distributed more evenly. Not saying that it should be, but it's interesting to see the 1% Winfrey guild having impact. We can also see that some people are adamantly against down votes while others are adamantly against experimenting lol.
Not only will the data be interesting, but for a few days dolphins get to feel what's is like to be a whale... And when that gets taken away... Who knows... Maybe there'll be increased demand for steem power!
hahaha yeah we can always get some data, maybe even see how much the public opinion of abit changes :D how much people are happier with steemit, how many are mad all fun metrics, if we can get all that juicy data mined right from the steemin blockchain :) and it gives material to you and stellabelle so we can all laugh at the experiments in a week :D probably
Lol. Should I take that as sarcasm?
Please stop downvoting #BitShares related stuff.
You're demotivating active community members
You're hurting reputation
As active Witness this behavior is totally inappropriate.
Thank you
Wow exactly @vato. Sad that abit doesnt realize the psychological DISINCENTIVE he is creating among the most loyal posters and backers of this tech.
If it persists I WILL be starting a campaign to rid abit of his witness. If THIS is how he chooses to use his witness funding, he doesnt need a witness.
No exceptions.
sooooooooo that is why my vote finally made a cent :D I was wondering why the madness had happened. :D Thought I was mad :D
EXACTLY!
https://steemit.com/witness-category/@fyrstikken/voting-power-to-the-people-and-curation-rewards-to-the-investors-please-bookmark-and-read-later-if-you-are-busy
Thank you for this TEST @abit
I can see the trend page is quite shocked, there is only one "high" payout above 50 ATM, I was used to seeing posts measure up to 20/50/100 and maybe one or a few at 150-200 but this is strange, very, payouts are 50 20 10 5 2 2 2 :D I suppose more is being transacted around but I do miss the whale votes :D I can see some people are already annoyed. It's ok I suppose since I don't mind it, but as I've said before I don't like the @ snowflake idea and I used to like abit more when he was supporting comments :D I wonder how this will affect curation rewards and I hope many people don't get phased by it, we should have thicker skins and weather such storms, people have been getting triggered left and right these past few weeks.
I'm out for now, still haven't read your post, but I w interested when it was posted. I don't like the idea off the headline, I think curation rewards should go to the people and power to the investors as i is :) (or as it is supposed to be but not quite) I think curation should be a way to power up and investors should be the most helpful to the growth of the community, therefore the most power and stake, acting when necessary, I like parts of the snowflake proposals, but I think minds already exists and we shouldn't downright dismantle the main features of steemit, whatever separates us from the other platforms should be used and fun to be used :)
I'm off :| :| :|
Cheers mate :)
So @abit gets to dictate who is allowed to curate or earn rewards for their posts? And how long will this be going on?
Lol. Now you sound like krnel.
is that bad?
If a Dolphin or minnow wants more influence then they should buy some SP, or use the platform and blog to become a whale. End of story. Count me out of your games, I will continue to vote how I please. I upvote based on attention given (time) by author and quality of content created. @abit
A downvote was applied to partially counter earlier whale votes as an experiment to reduce whale domination of voting influence. Not intended to express an opinion on the content nor result in a net reduction of rewards or reputation (automated notice)
what is the point of a automated notice, it's just like YouTube taking away monetary rewards from ads, until further notice.
First, I stopped the notices as a lot of people found them too spammy. Second, no one is taking away rewards like youtube not paying, although I reocognize there are some misunderstandings. In fact all the same rewards are being paid out but it is done so on the basis of votes from far more people rather than just a few dozen whales. I hope this helps clear up any misunderstanding about the nature of the voting system. Please don't be misled by a few people with a vested interest in supporting whale-dominated voting practices.
oh please don't misunderstand me, I'm all for a more engaged not voteboting reward based "social" media. I have no problem with the experiments I just see the effect and give my 2 cents, if you want feel free to check my post on the matter.
I think I have a firm grasp on how things run here, I've been online for a long time compared to most months of real activity is a lot in my view. It's still nice to get a 20 upvote because of some whale domination, there are too many problems to name and I hope we can pick the right solutions, hopefully this experiment doesn't stain the people too much, I'm just saying when the memes come they don't stop easy.
Last time there was a "war" I was hoping that a resolution might come about and I found it very interesting with the way krnel took the conversation, still, bernie for instance couldn't bother to even look and just memed away. It's about profits and whining. I think it's time we start working towards solutions. I hope this is worth it, since I think it will drive down the activity of the established users and not do much for the newcomers since it won't last long, guilds, bots and all are all good ideas, maybe not in their current form tho, I would much rather see a communication going around rather than just trailing bots at 1% :D
I'm not sure I'm being led anywhere I like staying in one place enjoying the show. IF profits roll in great, if not oh well, :D I'm not one to focus on menial tasks. Like posting four times a day :D and not commenting so I can get more posts. Anyways I'm trailing off, thank you for responding, I hope yu get some data to back up your "damages" bring in that 5$ price per steem :D
You're a whale, so on my list.
I'm not arguing about whether it's good for people to "buy influence".
Fair enough brother. Take care.
@thejohalfiles you bought STEEM with your money to have vote power over the platform, use your votes how you wish since they belong to you
Thank you for this.
How can dolphins or minnows play when you downvote everybody with 100%?
No kings crown. Its only the dolphins who get support from a "whale" (no definition of whalr apparently required).
But...if you have 50 dolphin accounts that whale is powered down into, you are GOOD TO GO BABY! Abit (and apparently a bunch of other whales) ONLY wants to punish those with support from single accounts with large payouts. Get your sock puppets ready!!
I do love a good experiment but the negative consequences to downvotes has been discussed & argued ad nauseum. That being said, I'm not one to say this is good or bad but there are a few things I'd like to know:
The last question is more important to me because honestly, I would volunteer for this experiment. I'll take a couple of flags for the sake of seeing how the payouts are affected -- but I would also allow content contributors the option of taking a day off from posting and seeing how our upvotes affect newbies. The key is ASKING for volunteers. I can't be the only one who'd raise my hand for a flag.
Hi @merej99 - great questions! I'd like to know a lot of the same things. I did create this post with what I do know about the experiment. Hopefully it should at least clarify some of it :)
https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/the-whale-voting-experiment-explained-including-downvotes-from-abit
Thanks, @timcliff - I'm going to check it out right now.
I've noticed a few more accounts doing mass downvotes on posts and comments now. Kind of makes me wonder what's in the kool-aid today.
My 2 posts of the day have all been mass flagged too :)
The whales that are participating in the experiment are trying to cancel out the votes of the whales that are not participating. Unless all of the whales abstain from voting (or are canceled out) then the experiment doesn't work.
Even the Nazis were doing experiments without saying anything to their guinea pigs ..
This should create @abit of drama. :) Here is your meaningless drama coin.