Whales No Up-Voting Test

in #test3 years ago (edited)

Going on.
Let's see how the dolphins and minnows will play.

//Edit: I'm downvoting the posts upvoted by other whales.

//Edit 2: downvoting posts upvoted by the @steemvoter Guild.

//Edit 3: thinking about how to counteract bot voting. Bot voting includes voting for a list of authors and follow voting.

//Edit 4: downvoting @steemtrail. (Edit 10: stopped downvoting)

//Edit 5: downvoting @curie (Edit 10: stopped downvoting)

//Edit 6: some explanations here, thanks for the people who wrote them:
https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/the-whale-voting-experiment-explained-including-downvotes-from-abit
https://steemit.com/steemit/@neoxian/the-experiment-communication-required-this-is-a-social-platform

//Edit 7: some related links:

//Edit 8: one more link:

//Edit 9: here is a video: https://steemit.com/live-experiment/@fyrstikken/explaining-the-whale-fasting-experiment

//Edit 10: one more link: https://steemit.com/experiment/@sykochica/experiment-thoughts-and-potential-strategies
And stopped downvoting curie and steemtrail.

//Edit 11: more info:

Sort:  

This is why steem needs a blocking feature. one day soon, new chains will spring up and will have this function. Then we will not have to worry about people like @abit running everyone off!

People like @abit focuses way too much on rewards and not enough on the people who help make this platform what it is. He is a bad actor, and is doing more harm than he realizes or even cares.

But hey, continue with the silliness you call an "experiment". You will find yourself a huge bagholder of 3 million steem.

Have a great day!

EDIT: You can downvote SteemTrail all you want. We do not care about your little experiment. Have fun. The community will decide what is best for US...Not you or any of your friends.

Someone who owns a stake in the Steem network has the right to influence the reward pool as they choose. This includes downvoting. Allowing arbitrary blocking of downvoting would not work.

This is a serious flaw. maybe we will see a chain that does it right then.

On such a platform, you may as well not have downvoting if anyone can arbitrarily decide on accounts who they will disallow downvotes from. Furthermore, one of the reasons to buy STEEM Power is to have influence on the reward pool. Allowing vote blocking would erode a part of STEEM Power's utility.

This is pure wrong. FLAGGING is meant to be used on people who are misusing the platform by posting bad, stolen or illegal content. It is ONLY acceptable for us to support people who USE flagging if they use it for the reasons for which flagging was intended. If you were here at the beginning you would know we had flsggin AND downvoting early on and the community came to the conclusion that such downvoting is destructive to steemit and alienates people. This is WHY WE USED FLAGGING -- Because flagging illegal or abusive material is the ONLY form of punishment this platform should offer.

When you play the game of political correctness to give the "right" to downvote quality content, you are walking a thin line to suicide and killing the platform along with yourself.

Hint: we dont need to grow to a billion users tomorrow. Hell we dont need to even focus on the number of users....but should focus instead on the QUALITY of their contributions to steem. In these early days, people should not be surprised if those individuals like myself who have been creating quality content for the community who built the tech that makes sreem possible years before steem was even born...should be expected to receive larger payouts as we have become trusted to use the money to improve the platform by those whales who will upvote us!

Hint: we dont need to grow to a billion users tomorrow. Hell we dont need to even focus on the number of users....but should focus instead on the QUALITY of their contributions to steem. In these early days, people should not be surprised if those individuals like myself who have been creating quality content for the community who built the tech that makes sreem possible years before steem was even born...should be expected to receive larger payouts as we have become trusted to use the money to improve the platform by those whales who will upvote us!

its entitlement like this thats the reason we have to get rid of n^2 and make a conscious effort to downvote low quality, pretext content

Also, pretty ridiculous that one user is telling others how theyre allowed to vote.

There has been a change in the platform. They updated the wording for 'flagging' to make it more along the lines of a downvote. Users are allowed to flag/downvote over "disagreement over rewards". There is also an open GitHub issue (opened by the Steemit dev team) to change the UI back to 'downvote' instead of flag.

users were always allowed to downvote whatever they want. "flags" have never existed on the blockchain. As ive said elsewhere, the current design of the UI is akin to ballot tampering. Attempting to stop people from using their vote by misrepresenting what it really is.

I worked hard on my Steemit Ham Supper tonight only to have it flagged 3 or4 times for absolutely no reason !!! m already only posting part time because of all of this and of course the smooth couldnt wait to downvote me again FOR QUALITY , ALL ORIGINAL PHOTOS AND CONTENT !!! IM PISSED !!!

then quit i guess. If you think youre entitled to a huge amount of money for pics of ham and don't think anyone ought to have the right to vote against that, its probably not the best platform for you. Obvi, i don't want people to quit, but downvotes are a part of the system (and an essential part at that). If you really dislike the system that much there's a ton of other SM platforms without voting/downvoting.

Certainly, if you think there is enough in the reward pool to pay you a full time salary to post pictures of ham, at least right now that isn't the case... the reward pool and the price of steem won't support it. At least, not without forcing everyone else to go without any significant rewards.

There has been a change in the platform. They updated the wording for 'flagging' to make it more along the lines of a downvote. Users are allowed to flag/downvote over "disagreement over rewards". There is also an open GitHub issue (opened by the Steemit dev team) to change the UI back to 'downvote' instead of flag.

I totally agree with you im tired of being downvoted for no reason ! I worked hard on my Steemit Ham Supper tonight only to have it flagged 3 or4 times for absolutely no reason !!! Im already only posting part time because of all of this and of course the smooth couldnt wait to downvote me again FOR QUALITY , ALL ORIGINAL PHOTOS AND CONTENT !!! IM PISSED !!!👎👎👎

Not allowing downvoting would be perfect! We have some who do not use it responsibly. They want the power and do not consider the consequences it has on the platform.

We will never attract the userbase we desire until this is realized. It's unbelievable that some think this is ok and will be a solution to anything. One step forward and then 10 steps backwards. This is evident in our price and user base.

Obviously, the people who have been making these decisions for all of us on the platform, have been wrong. However, they still think they know best. I would suggest getting new people to help make decisions and run "experiments" by. Because this same group is taking us all down with the ship all because they think someone left them in charge.

The reward curves that discount the minnows to nothing and to the whales everything does more harm than @abit can.
He can only affect however many votes he gets in a day, but the reward curves make everybody below xSP irrelevant.
This loses more users, imo.

Then again, it is a misuse of the flagging feature, is it not? I thought flags were for spam or abusive content.

This is mot a flaw. Without free actors, there is no free market. Speak out against it if you disagree.

There are many people in the community that feel strongly that the current distribution of stake is preventing the platform from scaling to billions of users. There is pretty much no incentive for a 'regular user' to buy SP, because even a relatively large investment of a few thousand dollars does not provide practically any influence. Figuring out a way to make the platform more appealing to 'regular users' to invest is really a key issue that needs to be solved if we all want our stake to grow in value.

The million dollar question is how do you achieve this in a way that is fair to the original stakeholders, and does not open the doors to abuse. Here is a post with some thoughts on the subject:
https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/whales-can-the-community-buy-out-a-portion-of-your-influence

The initiative that @abit is an agreement with many of the whales to not vote for a period, as an experiment to see what happens when the dolphins+minnows get more influence. It is an experiment. It is not the solution to the problem.

If the experiment helps the community to reach a consensus on what that solution is though, then it will be doing everyone a great service. We need to figure this out / get this right in order for the platform to scale.

This is not a solution. Downvoting represents nothing that is positive for those receiving them. That is the only data that will be retrieved from this.

Ask those receiving downvotes if they think the platform is more appealing.

The goal is for the whales to participate in the experiment. If whales don't upvote with a large portion of their stake (hence defeating the experiment) then there will be no downvotes.

Not true. They have been downvoting post that did not have any whale votes.

@abit No, I am not a whale yet - though I fully intend to become one. I have invested very large amounts into PURCHASING steempower. It is partially due to people like me, who have been buying steem all through the downturn in prices, that people like you have been able to cash out some of your steem.

I also attended Steemfest AT MY OWN EXPENSE unlike many others who were subsidized for their costs and reimbursed for some of their travel expenses.

I just came back from promoting Steem at Cryptopulco, again at my own expense. I have funded the prize money for contests on steemit in order to generate interest and enthusiasm in our platform. I have promoted other's posts at my own expense.

I have spent hundreds of hours curating and commenting and encouraging on the platform. I have never made use of a bot, but give conscious consideration to all my interactions AFTER HAVING ACTUALLY READ THE POSTS!

I have plowed everything that I have made from curating and posting right back into the platform (except for what I have donated to steemit projects or used to promote others' posts.)

Hence this, probably well-intentioned but definitely ill-conceived, experiment which can produce NO data of value because no parameters were set, is most discouraging to people like me.

DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT I SHOULD REDUCE THE VALUE OF MY VOTE TO SUIT YOUR AGENDA? IS MY AGENDA NOT AT LEAST AS VALUABLE TO THE PLATFORM?

[Nesting]
Respectful.
We all want a better platform.
Just do what you think is right.

Which post?

I think you are a whale.
Please consider lowering your voting weight.

With our efforts, your vote now worth 0.6$. Feel good or not?

Again, not one single mention of how this affects our users. This is a problem.

Based on what I have seen, the lack of communication is really the big problem with this experiment.

@timcliff what is there to communicate? "Hey, I like your post. But due to our experiment, we have to downvote you today and more than likely tomorrow as well. Keep on steeming!"

Anyway. I have productive things to do, so i will let the " Steem(it)Think Tank" get on with more innovative ideas. Peace.

Im tired of being downvoted ! Especially after working very hard on my Ham dinner food blog tonight !!! Now flagged 3 or4 times !! All it does is piss me off !! 👎👎👎

I received my downvote few days ago (we know that the experiment was started days ago, totally random as we could see watching the posts on the trending page) and I felt demotivated and discouraged. I wrote a content asking to whale don't upvote my posts, explaining (in my usual civilized manners) how a "simple (but honest) user" can feel confused after this . Not for the different payout after the downvote (5 dollars don't change my life, fortunately), but because I received it without explanation. Now, I can appreciate that a whale say me that it's running an experiment (ok, I can have my own concerns about it, but I'm only a minnow, no?), but I really hope that it isn't random and I really hope that the users are conscious that it's an experiment. I'm feeling as a lab rat, honestly.

I'm feeling as a lab rat, honestly.--->that's right

We are all lab rats, hehe. This is beta :)

@timcliff, you are right ! In my opinion there are two difference about lab rats in steemit community, mice (minnows) and big rats (whales)...ha..ha..!

@timcliff I read the post, but,as i wrote in my comment, the problem (for me, sure) isn't the payout that can be down. The problem is to receive a downvote without explaination. As many users here, I have some years of experience on the net and as users in some communities, so I perfectly know how the human factor works. If you hurt me (yes, a downvote without explanation can hurt someone, especially the minnows), I react and the reaction, for a simple user, is usually stay away from the community (I'm not talking about me ^_^). Maybe i'm wrong, but looking around I read that one of the objective of steemit is increase the number of active users, not decrease it. There is a very simple solution against the decrease: communication. I appreciate @abit, because he wrote that it's an experiment, but it would be useful for the users if he (or other for him) explain the plan. I can guess the "why" of this experiment, but you need to understand that the human factor is really important in every community ;)

One thing that might help is to consider voting for witnesses who are not supporting this.
Change your witness vote and let them all know why.
In the meantime, it is having a positive effect on the price of steem and this is driving the power of votes upward. It just needs marketed completely differently.

You can tell people we're stomping out bot votes. They'll understand that.

 3 years ago Reveal Comment

Wait for the hardfork before you leave?
IF they make the minnows matter in the math it might get better around here.

Very sorry you had to experience this. This is not how we want to treat our users. My apologies.

I'm not sure with what authority you can say that.

I am so confused and try to understand this move

Did the same. Good move. More people with guts.
Following you.

Abit is voting, all the time

I'm looking at his voting history in steemd, and it looks like they are all 1% upvotes. These votes essentially put his votes at the same level of stake as dolphins - which is very different than a whale upvoting with a large share of their stake.

abit votes for my comments which is pretty much the only decent reward(s) i make now. I have to disagree with you on this. He is trying a different approach, its worth a try isn't it? It's only for 1 voting period to s. Its just interesting to see what it's like in a world without whales for a day.

No. I do not think it is worth a try. I'm open for almost any idea, however, when it comes to our end users and retention i would never agree to something like this.

@solarguy. If only you could also feel what it was like for 3 years as i worked nearly free of charge to get where i could be trusted and upvoted by whales for my efforts.

All this experiment does is teaches you about the feeling of earning rewards you havent worked for to the degree that others have...and does it at the expense of those who have proven themselves time and time again to some people who finally have some stake in a project they limely sacrificed a great deal for.

New users seem to forget this. Imagine if you had to work and post to steem for over 3 years, working a night job and barely seeing your family so you could make this possible. Then imagine someone who is new to the platform says "i think i deserve the respect and trust THAT GUY has! But i can only have it if it is TAKEN AWAY from him!!"
All benefit it looks like from the minnows side.

Why not just change the f*g N^2 rewards curve???
Jesus this isnt rocket science.

I do know the feeling of working hard and not getting to see my loved ones or do things that bring joy to my life.

I also know what it is like to spend days writing a great post to have it earn hefty rewards and also make less than a nickel.

U see i spoke out about what i saw was happening a couple months ago and pissed off every guild and whale and never had decent successful rewards wise post since. Not in 2 months. Though my following continued grow and my comments section was still a hit.

I still write about the same things and for a while after i still put in the effort.

Steemit is about politics more than content or its quality.

This experiment will prove that and so i can see why so many people are oppse it.

At the end of the day its just for a day or two. If this experiment is so bad then after its finished things will go back normal.

If the experiment has merit maybe it will change some users habits.

This isnt just to make newbies wanting a slice of the pie who just got here.

I dedicated my life to steemit. I welcomed hundreds hundreds, i gave advice and pointed people in the right direction. I promoted my fellow authors on and off the platform. I have over 470 followers. Most of my posts have very active comment sections.

I fit the description of an author who is well liked and appreciated by many here but it does not reflect in my rewards because the few people who can give me them dont like me for something i said months ago. I was not wrong this experiment will prove it.

I did nothing so bad other than expose an issue that is clearly being missed by many.

I too sacrificed my time and energy for this place. Not just the people in favour or in power

The problem is that if it were a PROPER experiment people would not be blindsided and left out (unless they are meant to be the control). What this was was nothing more tham a half assrd attempt at what? Changing the system for 2 days?

Nothing in have seen even tells me what SPECIFIC datapoints they are trying to tease from the community :P

Steem is not 3 years old, only about a year, what are you referring to here?

You don't earn rewards, they are given to you according to votes. Working hard does not equal high payout. Quality is subjective. People are free to use their votes however they want.

It's not rocket science, you're right.

Quality is very subjective indeed. I guess all social networks - including steem have the problem how good content is measured. Steem has tried with Higher Quality = Sum of (Votes * Power of Vote). So far so good. Now the value of the post ist distributed back to the voters, those with more power get back more part of the treasure.
This leads to an expotentional growth of those which are :
started earlier than others, and thus posted more and longer.
But new people can't rally up? As they always will only get some very tiny fractions from the value.
So some could even work hard, but get not much from it.
Also it creates a "class" of rich people, medium class and working poor. Is that the social network some wants to create?

Why not just change the f*g N^2 rewards curve

Pretty much everyone I've talked to wants this to be done.

I'm sorry, I don't agree with you, any person for steeimt experiments should not receive criticism, steemit is open, why do you think @abit 's experiment is to earn more money, you're here. What do you want ? Steeimt from the highest point to an all-time low, this proves that the current steemit mode is not in the right orbit, you do not consider these issues, but always accuse others of experiment, I don't know why.

Thanks, for standing up "for the Right to Party"* or to "Post" (a joke from another steemian friend) freely, and not being harassed or used like objects.
We need people to forget the fear of losing reputation or Steem because someone decides to play with it just like it is a nickel machine, whose casino chips will have a zero value one day outside the casino.
And notice that the users are just numbers in a guinea pig experiments contest. We are not people anymore.
This system is censorship-resistant from the inside but not from the inside.
Finishing with 2 quotes from my posts
"The 1% of society rulers (minority) that are equalitarian only between them, but at the cost of the exploited 99% (majority) that are considered objects (slaves) and shows the influence of object possessions in the relation of Man-to-Man, and how paternalistic structures of things can "treat men as objects"."
"Steemit can be a model of the future in the blockchain for a more just society, because for me the real meaning of Justice is Equality and not the point of view of the Power as it is today."

  • Beastie Boys

Cant disagree...perfectly stated imho. Abit has really stunned me with this ridiculousness.

This is a scam, his flags are not getting global rewards lower, they are just getting the platform less attractive and the Steem lower.

What about the reputations of innocent posters that you are downvoting?

Good comment.
We all have to remember that to the value of the network must be subtracted the number the users that spam, flag and mute. Attracting and retaining augments the value of the network.

When they got upvoted their rep will increase.
I'm not going to downvote them to zero, so in worst case their rep will still increase some.
If they already have higher rep than me, my downvote won't affect their rep at all.

//Edit: just noticed that people who got bot voting from @wang and @created and perhaps some other bots wound't get an increment of rep score, so will be hurt somehow by downvoting. I guess it's not a big deal..

Is there evidence to support that the whales are already voting less.
My metric is 0 payout posts in cashout, it appears that there are less.
I was figuring that was whale shame, is it not?

The amount that the platform pays out will still stay the same, even if none of the whales vote. The only difference is that instead of whale upvotes dictating where the majority of rewards are allocated, it will be decided by the votes of the dolphins and minnows. With the absence of whale upvotes, the upvotes from dolphins and minnows will now have a lot more influence.

Right, instead of the .01% sucking it up and doling it out to their preferred content providers it gives everybody at the bottom a chance at a payout the moves the UI.

Now if only more people understood that, then that would be awesome. This test is to take control away from the huge whales and distribute rewards more fairly. Hang in everyone....this will be worth it.

Yep, exactly!

If the intention is to reduce the voting power of users with SP, then there is little incentive to hold SP and surely the whales will begin to power down further driving down the price.
In that scenario why not just hold your value as STEEM you get little benefit for holding SP? (I know you get a bit of the daily reward pool but not much else)

It is just an experiment. Obviously if anything long term is to be done, more would need to be done to address the 'fairness' and gaming aspects of it.

What about those of us who havr earned backing by sacrificing for the last 3 years for the community that made steemit even possible? Do i deserve you to downvote my work that FINALLY can get paid for?

This, abit, is a terrible experiment.

I respect your choice and I understand what you're trying to accomplish @abit but I want to take the time to share my thoughts on this.

It seems like the distribution of Steem is going well and is mostly done through the sell of Steem. Around $122,211 worth of Steem has been transacted in the last 24h. The daily author reward pool is worth only $4,324 if sold on Poloniex. (thanks to @inertia's bot for the info) The price of Steem has been going down lately thus the biggest losers are those who own the most Steem. With your experiment you will indiscriminately further put the larger Steem holder with author skills at a disadvantage.

I worked probably close to 20 hours on my next post and I put in more than 10 hours on almost all my chapters. I don't post that often. Usually when I do I get great rewards because I put a lot of time and thoughts into my posts. Not only in the redacting part but I spend all my life teaching myself about everything I could.

At first I thought this experiment might be a great experiment but after further consideration I doubt it. I don't post for the rewards yet like fuzzy I have spend a lot of time learning about crypto and that's one of the reason I and some of us were on Steem very early. I have spent the time, effort and taken the financial risk to be where I am now with the Steem I own. Most people on Steem haven't read the whitepaper once, haven't heard of Bitcoin before and it's okay. They are rarely the largest Steem holders for good reasons.

Money isn't the primary motivation for me and this will clearify in my next post but I need money to be able to advance my primary goal. I will uphold my next post in the hope this experiment will be stop soon. I hope you will consider removing your downvote if you were to realize that they didn't accomplished what you intended them to.

@teamsteem - the experiment does not take away any rewards from the reward pool. The platform will still pay authors the same amount regardless of the upvotes/downvotes from whales. All this experiment is doing is changing who gets to decide on the reward allocation. By the whales not voting (or being canceled out by other whales downvotes) then the dolphins and minnows will be the ones influencing the rewards.

All this experiment is doing is changing who gets to decide on the reward allocation.

Yes - and that person is primarily abit. This "experiment" is severely flawed. Any "data" gathered from it will be worthless.

I never said the experiment takes away from the reward pool. I'm not sure if you misread me or I badly expressed myself. I know how the reward pool works.

The point I made with the reward pool is that the % of total number of Steem people own are being influence more by the day to day selling and buying of Steem than by the number of Steem being distributed by the reward pool.

Also you commented below:

"With the whale votes removed, users who are receiving lots of votes from dolphins will now be favored for higher payouts." @timcliff

@ats-david ansered.

"That's only true if the downvotes are equivalent to the whale upvotes. But that doesn't appear to be the case." @ats-david

You answered

"I do agree that is how it should be done. That is something the individual voters who are downvoting should address." @timcliff

Also not all whale's votes are being cancelled either.

Really? do something productive.

Being condescending towards someone isn't a positive to anyone. We all been condescending toward someone at some point but we should strive for better. Have a nice day @sardrt!

 3 years ago Reveal Comment

can you try a best of three, I get it it's not your day and you are mad, still why say you aren't speaking down on anybody when you are, I'm sure there are many others that are sick and is some strange way abit seems to be the one with the doctor outfit :)

I think this is a pretty interesting experiment, actually. And it's only for a few days, and those few days can provide us with some data that can help future decision making.

I agree @schattenjaeger - data pool is important to make sure minnows and all users can fly :-)!

Wait a second here...

Does this image imply that it's possible to milk a dolphin?

almost - see you can think out of the usual silo but no @ats-david :-)

Agreed. Already we can see that the rewards are being distributed more evenly. Not saying that it should be, but it's interesting to see the 1% Winfrey guild having impact. We can also see that some people are adamantly against down votes while others are adamantly against experimenting lol.

Not only will the data be interesting, but for a few days dolphins get to feel what's is like to be a whale... And when that gets taken away... Who knows... Maybe there'll be increased demand for steem power!

hahaha yeah we can always get some data, maybe even see how much the public opinion of abit changes :D how much people are happier with steemit, how many are mad all fun metrics, if we can get all that juicy data mined right from the steemin blockchain :) and it gives material to you and stellabelle so we can all laugh at the experiments in a week :D probably

Lol. Should I take that as sarcasm?

Please stop downvoting #BitShares related stuff.
You're demotivating active community members
You're hurting reputation
As active Witness this behavior is totally inappropriate.

Thank you

Wow exactly @vato. Sad that abit doesnt realize the psychological DISINCENTIVE he is creating among the most loyal posters and backers of this tech.

If it persists I WILL be starting a campaign to rid abit of his witness. If THIS is how he chooses to use his witness funding, he doesnt need a witness.

sooooooooo that is why my vote finally made a cent :D I was wondering why the madness had happened. :D Thought I was mad :D

I can see the trend page is quite shocked, there is only one "high" payout above 50 ATM, I was used to seeing posts measure up to 20/50/100 and maybe one or a few at 150-200 but this is strange, very, payouts are 50 20 10 5 2 2 2 :D I suppose more is being transacted around but I do miss the whale votes :D I can see some people are already annoyed. It's ok I suppose since I don't mind it, but as I've said before I don't like the @ snowflake idea and I used to like abit more when he was supporting comments :D I wonder how this will affect curation rewards and I hope many people don't get phased by it, we should have thicker skins and weather such storms, people have been getting triggered left and right these past few weeks.

I'm out for now, still haven't read your post, but I w interested when it was posted. I don't like the idea off the headline, I think curation rewards should go to the people and power to the investors as i is :) (or as it is supposed to be but not quite) I think curation should be a way to power up and investors should be the most helpful to the growth of the community, therefore the most power and stake, acting when necessary, I like parts of the snowflake proposals, but I think minds already exists and we shouldn't downright dismantle the main features of steemit, whatever separates us from the other platforms should be used and fun to be used :)
I'm off :| :| :|

Cheers mate :)

So @abit gets to dictate who is allowed to curate or earn rewards for their posts? And how long will this be going on?

Lol. Now you sound like krnel.

is that bad?

If a Dolphin or minnow wants more influence then they should buy some SP, or use the platform and blog to become a whale. End of story. Count me out of your games, I will continue to vote how I please. I upvote based on attention given (time) by author and quality of content created. @abit

A downvote was applied to partially counter earlier whale votes as an experiment to reduce whale domination of voting influence. Not intended to express an opinion on the content nor result in a net reduction of rewards or reputation (automated notice)

what is the point of a automated notice, it's just like YouTube taking away monetary rewards from ads, until further notice.

First, I stopped the notices as a lot of people found them too spammy. Second, no one is taking away rewards like youtube not paying, although I reocognize there are some misunderstandings. In fact all the same rewards are being paid out but it is done so on the basis of votes from far more people rather than just a few dozen whales. I hope this helps clear up any misunderstanding about the nature of the voting system. Please don't be misled by a few people with a vested interest in supporting whale-dominated voting practices.

oh please don't misunderstand me, I'm all for a more engaged not voteboting reward based "social" media. I have no problem with the experiments I just see the effect and give my 2 cents, if you want feel free to check my post on the matter.

I think I have a firm grasp on how things run here, I've been online for a long time compared to most months of real activity is a lot in my view. It's still nice to get a 20 upvote because of some whale domination, there are too many problems to name and I hope we can pick the right solutions, hopefully this experiment doesn't stain the people too much, I'm just saying when the memes come they don't stop easy.

Last time there was a "war" I was hoping that a resolution might come about and I found it very interesting with the way krnel took the conversation, still, bernie for instance couldn't bother to even look and just memed away. It's about profits and whining. I think it's time we start working towards solutions. I hope this is worth it, since I think it will drive down the activity of the established users and not do much for the newcomers since it won't last long, guilds, bots and all are all good ideas, maybe not in their current form tho, I would much rather see a communication going around rather than just trailing bots at 1% :D

I'm not sure I'm being led anywhere I like staying in one place enjoying the show. IF profits roll in great, if not oh well, :D I'm not one to focus on menial tasks. Like posting four times a day :D and not commenting so I can get more posts. Anyways I'm trailing off, thank you for responding, I hope yu get some data to back up your "damages" bring in that 5$ price per steem :D

You're a whale, so on my list.
I'm not arguing about whether it's good for people to "buy influence".

Fair enough brother. Take care.

Keep up the good fight!!

@thejohalfiles you bought STEEM with your money to have vote power over the platform, use your votes how you wish since they belong to you

Thank you for this.

How can dolphins or minnows play when you downvote everybody with 100%?

No kings crown. Its only the dolphins who get support from a "whale" (no definition of whalr apparently required).

But...if you have 50 dolphin accounts that whale is powered down into, you are GOOD TO GO BABY! Abit (and apparently a bunch of other whales) ONLY wants to punish those with support from single accounts with large payouts. Get your sock puppets ready!!

Allowing 'sharing' of sp is only going to make this worse, imo.
The guilds will be institutionalized after the community clearly downvoted them.

Im working on something that will help...and will incentivize whales to stop powering down and start temporarily giving voting power to guilds of people.

And we will have a show as well around it. The main goal will be to gain backing from ANYONE with SP and leverage it to give recources to those who rise above the rest.

Picking winners IS the problem.

Banding together to pick winners travels through Moscow, to D.C., to Beijing, do you like how the world is being managed?
The 1% sucking up half the wealth to give to their winners while everybody else lives in poverty?

Banding together for power is bad when the crips do it, it is bad when steemizens do it, too.

Vote what you got, make your opinion known, but don't band together with your sycophants to rule the world,....please.

You will see it is nothing like what u are thinking. And that means you didny even read what i said.

The simple fact is that in the early stages of a platform or ANY business...control is centralized into the hands of the people who know the business.

You should really search for asshole whales. Im not one of them.

This sounds really cool! Can't wait to hear more :)

Ok, give me your perspective, I obviously only see mine.

Your silence, and deflective ad hominem, are allowing my imagination to run wild.
I hope you make your position known to me, or I will have no choice but to think what I think you think,....

Probably best. I need to prove nothing to you. Im too busy helping the platform to prove myself to every new player who has no idea about me.

I dont expect you to but neither do I see this as a good use of my time. All ill say is people will see.

this does sound interesting could you keep me posted please :) I tend to miss out and with everything going around I'm sure I can't get past my 100 tabs and all the posts being thrown each day. I gave you a follow but I will miss your post 90% :D so please keep me posted :D

I do love a good experiment but the negative consequences to downvotes has been discussed & argued ad nauseum. That being said, I'm not one to say this is good or bad but there are a few things I'd like to know:

  • how long will this experiment last?
  • which whales agreed to withhold upvoting?
  • which whales are assigned to downvoting (in case a whale didn't get the memo or decided to ignore the experiment).
  • Was the community at large informed prior to the experiment?

The last question is more important to me because honestly, I would volunteer for this experiment. I'll take a couple of flags for the sake of seeing how the payouts are affected -- but I would also allow content contributors the option of taking a day off from posting and seeing how our upvotes affect newbies. The key is ASKING for volunteers. I can't be the only one who'd raise my hand for a flag.

Hi @merej99 - great questions! I'd like to know a lot of the same things. I did create this post with what I do know about the experiment. Hopefully it should at least clarify some of it :)

https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/the-whale-voting-experiment-explained-including-downvotes-from-abit

Thanks, @timcliff - I'm going to check it out right now.
I've noticed a few more accounts doing mass downvotes on posts and comments now. Kind of makes me wonder what's in the kool-aid today.

My 2 posts of the day have all been mass flagged too :)

The whales that are participating in the experiment are trying to cancel out the votes of the whales that are not participating. Unless all of the whales abstain from voting (or are canceled out) then the experiment doesn't work.

This should create @abit of drama. :) Here is your meaningless drama coin.

This will be an interesting experiment not so much from the side of what will the minnows vote for, but rather from the type of content authors who choose to continue to produce content make? Consider content has been long influenced by what whales upvote.

That being said, I don't see how this experiment does not cause more authors to withhold creating content. Authors who have implicit or explicit whale support will (undoubtedly) refuse to release any content for fear of the flag and the rep damage. That leaves the whales with no "default" options, so by that very fact, they will begin selecting other content from authors they would not normally consider. I'd be curious to see when these authors get hit with a full power flag, if they continue to produce content. I would suggest the answer would be they will not, and authors will either withhold or leave.

What would be something interesting to change the nature of the experiment would be to not touch authors whales have not upvoted before. Something like that could change the flavor of content produced in Steemit, the type of content which hits the trending page and the authors who will be there regularly.

I have radically scaled back how much content I produce and increased my comments and interaction, so I've no dog in the fight.

Steemit is now a personal playground for some of the powerful, nothing more to do it blogging or voting, bloggers and curators are just puppets or guinea pigs for testing, not people anymore.
This shows about the disruptive strategies on steemit that will kill it and in the avalanche itwill take the disrupters with it.
Just lost my Reputation don't care about money at all.
Please show your power and silence me totally to show how things work here.
Inside censorship is totally evident, in a place where we are avoiding outside censorship.
Run for your lives because this is guerilla warfare.

you do sound a lot like @ skeptic and @ iloveupvotes there are a lot of "dust" accounts floating around :|

I do hope all the "wars" stop but people shouldn't take a platform s seriously, imagine getting unfriended in facebook to zero, so what :D are they really your friends, if you are valuable you will be upvoted and your reputation will only decrease for a short time, so what, are numbers that important, sure it's fucking annoying to get trashed around, but learn from it, plus it's not like we have done anything helpful staying here pushing buttons and bots around :D

My friend I do look like myself , I'm not carrying any group's message or affiliation.
It's not about Reputation or Money, I don't care about that, I just feel that no system of governance can use their Power to experiment with their citizens.
Every time this happens in History it has a sad end

yup well it'a "decentralized" system so you are just getting a bad feudal lord and being a part of a war you didn't vouch for, nothing to see move along :|

yeah I know, very medieval in character. I get annoyed with people, sorry to take it out on you. It just proves how bad it feels to get fucked with. Anyways experiments can't last long, it's not productive and is unsustainable, maybe check stellabelle and beanz for the votu podcast and the hotline from stella :D

Well, my friend, we have to fight for the dream to became Reality. :)
The blockchain can't be the same Reign of Fear, normal society is today.
The problem is that some people that have Power start using and abusing Authority as it usually happens when there are material things involved. :(
And above all the fights for Power use the people as Pawns and everybody should be aware of this.
The ones that paid for Steemit to happen (they are right to be angry) but I don't see them all going around and "cutting people's heads".
I think investors should be fighting for consensus between them otherwise, everybody loses, steemit, steemians, and "governance".
In my view, the blockchain is an "engine room", a technological infrastructure that can be used in the future to provide an environment for a better world where everybody can be heard and take ownership of their destiny in their hands, without the interference of chiefs or politicians.

"When rich people fight wars with one another, poor people are the ones to die." - Jean-Paul Sartre

yeah we have all that history for something, the problem is people are too young in their mind and lack the connections between each other. You can see divides even here, even the two man team that started this is no long there. So far we need to support both and support each other :D too much maybe. But I have my hopes and I would like them to turn up into something :D

  • btw the whole "experiment" is just as bad as I had thought, they even took their time I joked before it happened :D a week prior, snowflake took it quite literally, I'm not sure people here have the understanding and empathy to actually create that nice place and community that we can say "here we have it, we made it it works :) feel free :)" maybe one day :)

here is a cheer :)

Alexi Murdoch - Blue Mind

Fascinating. Bring on the excitement!!!

In fact i just upvoted a post and gave it five cents. I am positively orca-ish!!

Interesting.

I noticed that with a few of my upvotes too. It was kind of cool to see the monetary value jump, especially since I'm still a baby dolphin. BUT I completely know how disheartening a downvote is for the sake of an experiment. On the other hand, this entire platform is a grand experiment.

I can understand particularly now the pain of an downvote as rewards seem to be getting smaller too. But as you say. It's all an experiment . What if through something like this everything got changed up and all of us started to be able to affect a reward by five or more cents it could change the whole dynamic

And you tell me this is a test lol??

Not all the donkeys have left yet. :)

This is a test - it is only a test. If there was a real emergency you would be given instruction.....

Not sure if it was lovely, but thank you! grins.

A failed test that only required some actual deep THOUGHT into the simple game theory behind its premise for it to be (rightfully) killed before it could grow into a real life rapist.

When I made that comment, I had no idea about the flagging. There wasn't any "Edit" yet. Yikes, I see what he might be trying to do, but the victims never enjoy this.

The simple fact is that what he is trying to do could EASILY be done by tweaking some of the chains variables...or better yet maybe he could use some of that $100+k he made from SELLING STEEM (and putting downward pressure on the price) toward BUILDING A SOLUTION...like i have done with nearly all my far smaller 25k+ earned. I guess its just easier to flag people for f******g misuse of the platform. When its not deserved.

EASILY

It IS easy to modify the code, for example to use another curve. It's not easy to make that decision. You're not a witness. Try influence the devs, convince them to code your ideas.

some of that $100+k he made from SELLING STEEM

This is trolling. Data please.

I know how much you have man and how much ive made (and spent to build stuff). Dont try to tell me you havent AT LEAST made that because ive made and spent over 25k in total...maybe more, for tools to fix these problems to be built. But this is beside the point. The point remains that the way you and others unleashed this caused Damage when it COULD have been fruitful.

Wth are you trying to measure anyway? I dont say this to be a dick. I say it because if its an experiment it is a terribly constructed and executed one.

Btw, id love to be a witness. Let me get one up and running. Its far easier than writing posts. A slight learning curve but no worse than learning markup. Would u upvote one if i asked you? Or have i made you hate me? Lol..

If this will help steemit, so be it
But i think if you or any dev elaborate more about what happening and why? That will be more helpful.
By the way i upvoted your blog and it seems that my vote have slightly more value than usual
Thanks in advance

at what SP whale starts officialy ?

Nothing official.
All subjective.

Like top25 aka first page of http://steemwhales.com/?p=1&s=total maybe ?

Not only those.

Its an arbitrary list? Why did you choose this arbitrary list? Wat was the reason for making this choice arbitrarily? How does it HELP the giald of your "experiment"?

Hint: if u cant answer with anything but "its all subjective" you have failed already.

Hint: if u cant answer with anything but "its all subjective" you have failed already.

Exactly. There's no point to an "experiment" if you have no parameters and just make shit up as you go.

For example: the edits to this post where he now wants to consider "countering" bots and trails. Good luck with that, considering that's how most of the votes are cast on this platform. The active human user base is pretty small.

What is the point of this "experiment" again? To show us what we already know about removing selected stake from the voting equation? Fantastic! That was already known when the blockchain was designed.