I hate controversy.... but I love clever solutions!
TAKING COVER
As I type this now, I am using one hand to type, and the other hand to grab my armor.
I fully know that this is going to spark a heated debate BUT!!!! Before we lay into one another (or before we start calling names and insulting the level of intelligence of say... me! hahaha) Can we just talk about it?
Can we? I would really love to!
BOTS.
Ok, I already see your eye twitching, but let me just present some nice bots that we all know and love. Gina. Yes... that's better. Look your eye has already stopped twitching and I see your lips curling into a smile. @neander-squirrel's little foxy cyborg!
What about the lovely new @dustsweeper? Yep. Signed up for that the other day and all i have to say is THANK YOU @danielsaori and @davemccoy !
Even just recently, @twoflower introduced me to the bot that he helped create. Quite a nice little surprise on my comment - it's called $upcom. Similar to dustsweeper - but different! Equally beneficial! (Don't you love that creativity sparks creativity???)
So now that your blood pressure has started to come down, let's just keep talking calmly, shall we?
We can agree that there are bots that are designed to be more beneficial, and some that are designed to allow for abuse. Voting bots fall into this category. It's a grey area because it's an automated system for rewards that probably would not be used otherwise. I think they started off with good intent, and then - as usual, people abused them.
Here is what we can also agree on. We will never be able to mandate morality. There will always be someone there to take advantage. We can either offer passive resistance to go up against the bots (which doesn't really help) or we can aggressively attack people who use bots (which doesn't really help) or.......
I avoided the issue. I ignored what others did. I minded my own business. I HAVE seen people use bots for "advertising" purposes, and they've done this in a way that I think has been the most ethical use of it. We have seen that there are Steemians on trending that have bought their place there - but they STILL have great content.
We have also seen Steemians buy their way there who do not.
If every day, someone put a handful of coins in the community playground, and left them there for whoever had the initiative and motivation to take them, would you take your share? Or would you leave it for a few people to take everyday?
You might think this sounds like,"If you can't beat 'em, join 'em"
I disagree.
If everyone gets a piece of the pie - we have leveled the playing field.
I think it's more like...
"If you can't beat 'em, negate 'em."
What would that look like? If we ALL used the more ethical voting services and started to level the playing field.
I'm just putting it out there to talk about it. I'm not promoting it. I'm saying - what if?
I think one of the questions I foresee is : Well, what about people who can't afford to buy votes? What about countries that are less fortunate?
This is already an issue. People talk about how any Steemian can succeed with determination and hard work, regardless of their station in life. Possibly, but the deck is already stacked in the favor of someone who can actually afford to buy Steem and add to their wallet - bypassing sweat equity.
This is the system that we have. Would it make the divide greater? I'm actually not so sure. I have met a lot of Steemians from all over the world that have used voting bots on their posts. They have had much higher payouts than me, and it had nothing to do with their station in life or the quality of their posts. It was only relevant to the fact that they had purchased a vote. My point is : I think that if we all began leveling the playing field, I think it would spread throughout Steemit - regardless of socioeconomic status.
Or would it?
I'm super curious as to what everyone thinks. All I can say is, I never thought I would consider this until @edicted opened up the conversation (and actually tested it out with success) on his own account. He has some really interesting points about how to make it more fair, profitable AND spread the money around. Check it out, if you dare. lol
And now? I'm super intrigued. I'm all about keeping things as fair as possible, and it seems like our passive resistance is only helping to line the pockets of people who don't have the same intent as our own.
Thoughts? (ducking under my shield now)
Images used in this post
I see you just tried your hands on one of most thorny issues on Steemit.
I think we focus more on the how and less on the why. Why do people use bots? Because it's beneficial to them, not always in terms of payout but that's another discussion.
At the base of all this is human greed and a need for validation
For greed, people always want more. Most bot claim to offer good value for bids. Add that to the fact that most people are drawn to high paying posts, and you see why people are willing to part with their Steem in hopes for more.
For validation, when you see a post with high payouts, you're inclined to believe the post is worth it. I know about bid bots and circle voting. Still, I am drawn to posts with high payout. It's like one of the signs of success over here.
So sometimes, (a while ago though), when I create a piece I believe deserves attention, I 'promote' it using smartsteem and smart market. I'm smarter now. I stick with developing a following of my own. But then, a good payout from a post kinda tells me I've done well (even when I'm the one patting myself on the back)
At the end, voting bots are not the problems. They simply reveal out tendencies. Remove voting bots and watch people look for other ways to game the system.
What's the solution? Well, like you, I don't know. I'm still thinking..
Blessings
I think you hit the nail on the head. I've written other posts talking about the heart of the matter as well... And even tried to design things to offer alternatives. But nothing is as alluring as the large votes. I don't see a problem with the promotion... Or even necessarily the buying...
If one believes it's worth it- one can take any means necessary to award it. That's the system we have in place.
But even if one believes it's not worth it... That is still the system in place lol.
My point is... Hmmmm should we all be using it more often then? But where will that lead??
Like you.... I don't know! Lol but definitely thinking... As you
Thanks for your visit!!! I hope you come back for less heavy issues and more fantastical tales!!! 😊
Of course not. Left to me, the entire thing should be done with. If not, it would just turn steemit to a vending machine of sorts. Except that you pay the vendor twice, first for the upvote and then again when they come for curation rewards.
It's actually cool reading your thoughts on this. I like your style of writing, very natural. I would say informal if you don't mind.
Followed you already
Blessings
I agree! I would prefer that it be done with! But will it be?
And if not... Does the passive resistance really help?
That's why I loved @edicted's point of view. Negating their effect UNTIL (hopefully... Hopefully... Lolol) they're abolished. But I do hear chatter on the line that their end is coming? Will be interesting to see.
Yes...I tend to have a more informal, and conversational tone when I blog :)
I think the "beneficial" are also open to abuse, basically anything that involves the potential for financial gain seems to attract abuse. So I guess only ginabot and remindbot are pure!
The path to disaster is always paved in good intentions!
In dustsweeper, I see the potential for abuse as it gathers up the dust, but at twice the initial investment. I would suspect (if not already) that there is easily a way to start harvesting the dustsweeper votes in an unintended consequences sort of way.
So it boils down to the question, does the tool benefit more than it harms? After all, it is the person using the tool that creates the morality of the use. (I realise this has echos of NRA, but I'm thinking more about nuclear physics... ).
In either case, I would consider that, as it is a part of the ecosystem, that transparency and oversight of the bot use and abuse is the best way forward. Blacklists, the inability to vote on dmania, the unencrypted memo field are all aspects of this. I would suggest that a ban, would just take the trading off the Steem chain and make it more difficult to see.
Personally, I use bots for visibility and for a slow way to reinvest SBD to SP. I tend to use them depending on how much effort I have put into writing the post. In the end, the feeling of writing a nice post is better than the number at the end. And I'm always much happier if there are comments that show someone has read it!
As someone who started on here before the Bot's, and watched the slow growth of them from a few to the now hundred's it seems - it's been interesting to see how different people interpret them.
I understand the Purists that believe posts should only receive the rewards they deserve based on the content and community upvotes. It would be ideal if everything worked that way, but the reason we have the bot's is because it rarely works that good content get's the upvotes it deserves. Most of this is down to visibility - getting posts seen to an audience that would like to upvote them is a difficult challenge.
The bot's when used correctly, and that does require a great deal of watching https://www.steembottracker.com and only bidding in the last few minutes of a bot round when the bot has a large figure in the Max Profitable Bid Section. If you get it right, your input SBD should be doubled in post upvote - ie $5 in gives a $10 post upvote increase, this can increase if the Max Profitable Bid is really high. Conversely if there is little or no Max Profitable Bid you will get less maybe only $7 upvote and so will get less back on payout then you put in.
You can gain if you play it right, although it is also dependant on the Market value of Steem - if it drops after you bid bot a post then your rewards will drop. Conversely if the market value climbs you can gain a great deal more. As a general rule if you bid carefully and get an upvote of double the SBD you put in when the post pays out you will get back what you put in - the growth is in Steem Power. As an example 0.64 reward post, $5 SBD post promoter and $5 SBD buildawhale when both have a high Max Profitable Bid. Post upvote value is now $21.59, with a payout of $10.79 (so getting back what was put in) and Steem Power reward 3.79 SP (Here lies the growth)
If the bot's are damaging the reward pool is another question, I don't know the answer but my feeling is they would be quickly stamped out if they were.
#thealliance
Yeah, I'm not sure if it's damaging the reward pool as much as trashing the trending page and just lowering the overall quality of posts, motivation, and standards across steemit.
If that continues, more people will leave Steemit since they are making fractions of the payout, with quality that far surpassed the crap posts.
I also understand the Purist view... But I wonder if the resistance of voting bots is a view that just hasn't been explored more because of the stigma associated with their abuse?
Thanks for the comment @c0ff33a!!! I'm so enjoying these discussions in the comment section!!! :)
Yay helpful bots! I ❤️ Gina.
For bid bots: My preferred solution is to ban them. Simple. I mean no moral judgments. When I see people say that it would be impossible to enforce or that people would find ways to game the system anyway, I don’t think that holds up. All sites have a TOS. We don’t allow certain forms of expression because they’re illegal or cross the lines of abuse. It depends how you define “abuse,” but I’d say manipulating the rewards system and intentionally undermining the platform counts. If people want ways to pay to promote content then they can use the one the site already built for that purpose and then disclose that it’s promoted (which is mandated by the FTC anyway).
i agree .... but until they do.... (who knows when) should we negate their effect by all taking part? or.... hmmmm not sure!
and if you haven't tried @dustsweeper yet.... i HIGHLY recommend!!!!! :)
I've heard about the promoted tab - but then i've heard that its really not too beneficial. and then you have - well ok - people won't use "bots" but then they'll just do it behind the scenes. so many ways to get around things!!!
so... yeah - not sure what the solution is - but love the discussion! thanks @malloryblythe!!!
This is a relatively free market, and there is a demand for them. Whether I agree with how they're used or not, they are a fact of life on this platform.
Very true. Now we are hearing that they won't be an issue for long - but my question is still: Until they are gone, what to do in the meantime? Is there something that we can do - but we're all hesitant to talk about it because of the perceived negativity? but.... is there ACTUALLY a benefit for us all to use them in the meantime??? hmmmmm i really don't know - but I'm so intrigued to see if there is a way for more people to "win", and not just people who want to post crap and pay for it to get high profits! LOL
You have to alter the game, Which we are trying to do over at The Hive
For a few to change things takes a long time, for a group to change things means it can happen faster
Yes, I think we are doing the same at @buddyup. Many people having a change of perspective at the same time. Discussions like this help a lot!!! I'm so glad that people took the time to answer kindly and openly! When attacks start flying- it's never helpful or enlightening. Glad to see there are more groups helping to open up the discussion with their members!!! :)
Thank you @dreemsteem for this thought provoking post.
What do I think ?? Listen Iam apart of the same Fam( the alliance) as you @dreemsteem. And by default as part of our "Dues" we get the enviable position of @theMothership visiting our blog and giving us a $3-$4 nice Upvote sometimes more. Also @a11y is the same thing. But not required of Fam members, But I delegate to that as well.
And I have been given a freebie ( not sure) from @sneky-ninja which was really cool.
That being said Iam just one of those who is NOT going to spend any money with the big Bots that give $50 Payouts and for all intensive purposes is used by most to get on the Trending page. So it's a form of advertisement.
I am not going crucify these peeps from doing this. I know a few who are high quality producers and Fam members who are just trying to get a little Boost and more Visibility.
For me there is nothing wrong at all with that. No harm, no foul. Nothing unethical about it.
I just think there is so much abuse by other shady steemians who have crap Content and abuse these high payout Bots.
For that reason and also the fact I want to make it here at Steemit and be able to say I didn't use those big Bots. Not even once. So it's also a pride thing for me.
But to each his own.
Right! I feel pretty much the same as you... Or I should say "felt" lol
I felt so strongly that I was going to pay for bots for those same reasons. But then your point about the abuse....
THATS what started to make me think. If there is abuse, and we are just saying we won't use them.... Is that effective?
Would it be better for us to say we will use them and we will use them ethically.
See my question?
Not really trying to sway you to use them hahahahaha trying to state the point as.. if we don't use them and leave more money for financial rewards to be taken through the unethical use of the bots.... Are we actually harmining steemit?
(Does that make sense or am I asking the question in too odd of a way, @robertandrew?)
Yeah I think I see what you're saying. But for some reason I'm stirred up to see if I can do it without the big Bots. So I guess it's two reasons. The Abuse and also the Challenge ( even if it can be used ethically) to see if I can do it like @denmarkguy has done it without paying the big Bots to make it to Trending.
So I guess that's the main reason. Maybe kind of silly but I guess I like to make things harder than they need to be lol
I totally understand what you mean and I'm usually that way too! (honestly) hahahahahaha so I get you!
But - I think I COULD do it without bots. I think we all could! It would take more time, but... it's of course possible.
It's the same thing I did when I published one of my books. I did it without marketing because I wanted to see how far I would grow organically. In the end, I realized that marketing myself was not a skill that I excelled at. hahahahahaha and in the future - I will pay a marketing team to do what they do best LOL
I think part of that lesson is ringing in my head here... do I want to spend more time (than I might have) on attempting 100% organic? I initially thought yes. Now... for many reasons, I'm considering no. I don't really care about trending. I use the #teamgood tag from @battleaxe anyway :) I think that is a much more valuable tag than trending right now.
and I don't think your way is silly at all. I admire your determination! And now I'm cheering for you to do it!
Go Go @robertandrew hehehehehe
And so, I'm very curious as to how this happens: @roselover
Have a look at that account, started only this year... Is it 'bots? Good connections? Great photography? Magic?
😄😇😄
We can ask! :)
I have read edicteds post on the matter also and agree with your newly acquired view and comment mainly to add to the discussion with some more reading :) https://steemit.com/@yabapmatt/on-voting-bots and https://steemit.com/@spiritualmax/my-bot-vs-no-bot-experience-the-conclusions
Thanks @penderis!!!! I will gladly check these out!!! :)
finally got a chance to read these @Penderis! I am pretty sure I'm 100% convinced of my stance ( I was earlier this afternoon -but after reading these - i'm locked down)
I think i'm going to summarize my many many comments here in this post... LOLOL (you can actually see the gears turning in my brain as I start to figure out what I want to do hahahahaha) and though my summary won't be as eloquent as @yabapmatt's post.... it will maybe be a little bit more accessible to lower level Steemians like myself (and friends) hahahaha
i thought it was funny that both he and I even used the "baby and the bathwater" analogy!!!! LOLOL He used it in his post - and I used it in a comment yesterday! LOL
very cool - thank you again for sharing this with me! I think it's the final thing I needed to see where I want to move to in the very near future! :)
You have been defended with a 56.63% upvote!
I was summoned by @c0ff33a.
Thank you @c0ff33a :) I appreciate that!!!!