Upvoting vs Voting Bots on Steem!

in #steem2 years ago

What does a side by side comparison of the benefits and limitations of upvoting versus voting bots look like? Voting on posts and giving our Steem power to voting bots are two strategies we can use to convert our stake on Steem into value. We might enjoy seeing the ups and downs of each because this helps empower us to see which might work best for us and to avoid judging others using different tactics than we are.

Upvoting


  1. Place votes on posts to increase rewards based on amount of Steem power and voting power.
  2. Option to vote manually, automatically, or combine autovoting with manual curation.
  3. No ability to give or receive earnings without voting with potential lost at 100% voting power.
  4. For full self earnings, vote 10 times a day on ones own posts or comments with the need to power down constantly to take a full payout.
  5. Downvotes can reduce rewards.
  6. Limited to maximum voting power on one post which rewards quantity based posting for maximum payouts.
  7. Circle voting allows for mutually giving and receiving votes with others through a combination of directly agreeing via private messages to vote posts in exchange for a vote on ones own post or indirectly receiving votes over time from others that have voted back allowing for every post to consistently receive high upvotes by all authors in the circle.
  8. Ability to maximize curation rewards with automatic voting on popular authors combined with manual curation on the most underpaid posts.
  9. Up to one week delay between the upvote and the payout with the majority of rewards (including curation) paid in Steem power which takes up to 13 weeks to fully withdraw and less than half of rewards paid immediately in SBD and/or Steem.
  10. Requirement to either actively participate on Steem every day to get a share of earnings or setup automatic voting which then requires ongoing management to not drain all voting power while rewarding autovoted authors primarily based on quantity instead of quality.
  11. Without voting bots, the trending page was almost completely mutual votes with occasional posts having huge upvotes from big stakeholders. No effective method existed for new users or users without much of a following to promote a post which was not seen or voted on by a whale.
  12. Limited ability to provide funding outside of Steem posts without maximizing circle voting and/or self voting and powering down.
  13. Maximizing self voting especially at higher levels of stake often results in lots of downvotes and significant losses in rewards combined with generally a high level of attention which can help build a following.

Voting Bots


  1. Accept bids in exchange for votes on posts as seen at https://steembottracker.com/ based on amount of Steem power and voting power.
  2. All votes are automatic for bids unless the bot owner manually votes which then eliminates the potential bids and earnings.
  3. Passive earning after voting bot is setup and all possible voting power used except for errors.
  4. Full self earnings by default with the ability to send those earnings to any user including making donations on https://fundition.io/ or placing bids for upvotes on bots.
  5. Low bidding rounds can reduce rewards.
  6. Flexibility to "go all in" on promoting one post with earnings from the bot in exchange for not self voting on the majority of posts rewarding the creation of fewer high quality posts at the same rate as self voting many lower quality posts.
  7. Loss of participating in voting circles except for sending part of earnings back as bids to a bot with which makes exchanging an even vote challenging.
  8. No control over curation rewards while potentially allowing the bot owner to keep all the curation rewards from another stakeholder's Steem power.
  9. Consistent daily payouts all in immediately spendable Steem and SBD.
  10. After delegation to a voting bot, earnings are generally totally passive with automatic payouts every day at a rate set by each bot owner. Setting up ones own bot and maintaining it generally takes active participation to fix problems and provide customer support while usually allowing for the highest earnings.
  11. With voting bots, the trending page is a combination of circle voted posts and voting bot posts with very few posts curated by whales on unknown authors.
  12. Easily fund larger projects and pay for help in fiat as well as maintaining the ability to bid for upvotes on posts with earnings.
  13. Payouts are completely discretionary based on the bot terms allowing for a total self reward payout without the ability to downvote while also allowing for total generosity and a combination completely up to the user.

My Experience with Both?


I have been through each of the 26 points listed above. What I see today is that upvoting and voting bots offer us a complimentary set of tools we can use to contribute the most to (and therefore get the most back from) the Steem blockchain. Upvoting and voting bots both have the potential to be used completely selfishly for the sole purpose of taking a payout for the user while both also can be used completely in generosity to give back to others. Voting bots do not necessarily mean total selfishness while manual curation does not necessarily mean a total commitment to giving back.

When I joined Steem a year ago, I made all of my votes manually and judged those using autovoters until I saw that the curation rewards were 2 to 6 times higher using automatic voting. After eventually adding almost 500 authors on my @steemvoter who often voted me back and seeing a huge increase in my curation rewards, I judged voting bot operators for just taking the whole payout and was jealous of the massive profits possible without the ability to get downvoted.

As I ran into limitations funding my projects on upvotes and received huge downvotes on my posts that eliminated most of my earnings from having almost a hundred thousand Steem power, I saw that a voting bot would allow me to take complete control of my stake based rewards which I could use to fund not just my projects but those by others with the same struggle.

I started my voting bot by giving all of my 100,000 Steem power to it without taking any payout and giving half of the bids to fund growth projects for Steem including mine and hundreds of others for a total of $50,000+ within the following five months. The top projects funded were ads for Steem which reached millions of people in nearly every country on Facebook and YouTube as well as a P2P marketplace we are close to launching for trading Steem to fiat along with almost anything else Steem can be used to pay for. Hundreds of smaller projects and ideas were also funded for a total of close to $100,000 in six months.

While the budget proposal system funding was amazing for getting Steem growth projects money, I lost the majority of my author rewards as authors that I was informally circle jerking (we voted each other manually often and eventually both started autovoting without any specific agreement to do so) stopped voting my posts others that were voting my posts delegated to my bot instead. As reach of my posts died, I then started promoting one or two posts a month featuring the budget proposal system or a post intended to grow Steem like 25 Reasons Steem Will Replace Bitcoin as #1 Cryptocurrency by 2021! with bids from the @budgets account which then got the entire SBD payout back from my author rewards on the post which was usually about the same as the bids I sent to promote it minus downvotes.

After giving tens of thousands of dollars back to delegators and Steem growth projects instead of taking my own payout, I became frustrated with my inability to manually place an upvote or pay those helping me on Steem. I made the switch to taking the equivalent to half a delegator payout which allowed me to make bids for upvotes and added confusion about what I should upvote myself versus what qualified as a growth proposal for Steem.

With the launch of https://fundition.io/, we now have a crowdfunding platform any of us can use to post projects similar to kickstarter and gofundme without all the fees. The @fundition launch motivated me to give up the budget proposal system in favor of trusting my bot delegators with all the earnings in exchange for making a request to give part of the earnings back to projects on @fundition each day as explained at https://steemit.com/fundition/@jerrybanfield/all-in-on-fundition-io-budget-proposals-ending-bot-delegator-payouts-increasing-to-110. The message for daily payments I intend to share with delegators each day in the memo with the payout transfer reads something like this!

Thank you for delegating to me! Will you please use some of the earnings you received to fund projects on Steem at https://fundition.io/ because we feel great giving back and helping others? Read more at https://jerry.tips/votebot.

Highest Payout Bot for Delegators?


My voting bot now pays out 95% of bids by the amount of Steem power contributed to each delegator and to me as well as all of the curation rewards once a week equal to approximately 110% of bids making my bot now one of if not the highest in terms of ROI because most bots keep all of the curation rewards. I trust each delegator to do some good with the funds received the same as is possible with upvoting. I am grateful to be on the @fundition leaderboard at https://fundition.io/#!/leaderboard for donations within the last week and I hope to have some more competition for that number one spot especially among those delegating to my bot because GIVING BACK FEELS GOOD.

How We Got Here?


Thank you to @steemmatt who made the following comment on my previous blog post at https://steemit.com/fundition/@jerrybanfield/all-in-on-fundition-io-budget-proposals-ending-bot-delegator-payouts-increasing-to-110 which motivated me to write this!

In all constructive honesty, and this has generally bothered many more than me, I don't see a connection between this post title/tone and having your Steem Power/vote available by purchase/for profit only. It's extremely contradictory, despite all of the other positive things you've done. It really outweighs the good with the money not currently being where your mouth is. Perhaps you could write a post on the pro-people rationale for that since it feels like the big elephant in the room behind the curtains.

Connection Between Voting Bots and Contributions!


Reading this comment helped me see the need to show the ups and downs of voting bots along with my experience. I see voting bots as giving many of us the ability to give back more effectively than we can via upvoting especially because so many of us are already generous with upvotes and so few have cash to send out. I love being able to drop $100 on a project on @fundition without feeling like it really cost me anything.

Voting bots give me the most control over my stake rewards. I choose to use a lot of these rewards to do good each week not just on fundition but also in placing bids on the posts I enjoy the post. This is the best strategy I see for me today. I am open to changing it as we continue to evolve on Steem just as I have changed my voting and curation strategies so many times already to get here.

Thank you for reading this post about voting bots and upvotes which I hope was helpful!

Love,
Jerry Banfield

Upvoting vs Voting Bots on Steem.jpg

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Greetings, JerryBalfield

Excellent explanation between difference of votes using curators and votes using bid bots. I do not use bots in my posts. Generally, I get small rewards for it, mainly because I'm Brazilian and there are not many Portuguese-speaking people here at steemit to read my posts.

I am not so proficient in English, but if I understand, your bidbot provides 110%, with the payment being made daily, right ??? How much would this give in the month in relation to the sp delegates ??
Would reach the mark of 3% ???

Thanks for the post and good night !!!

Currently the payout is about 1 Steem a day per 1,000 Steem delegated or about 0.1% interest daily which is over 36% a year especially when compounded by reinvesting.

thank you man!!!

Hello, I'm a creator of Steemhunt, a daily ranking community for cool new products on top of Steem blockchain. I began this project two months ago, and honestly these are my thoughts/struggles about voting bot issues.

  1. There are three types of abuse in Steemit - 100% self voting, Circulating votings on self accounts, and delegating SP to bid bots.
  2. Many people agree that the first and second one are abuse.
  3. Not many people agree that delegating SP on bid bots is abuse.
  4. There are two main problems with delegating SP on bid bots.
  5. First, bid bots do not return any profit to the users who bid. Actually the return is -5 ~ -15% to their paid amount. It only returns commissions to bid bot operators and rewards for delegators. This means that delegation to bid bot is another type of SELF VOTING POOL.
  6. Second, most of whale's SP are converged on bid bots nowadays. I can't find the exact amount, but top 10 bid bots' full voting amount is over 250 SBD now. However, bid bots' upvoting are not creating any values on our communities because IT IS JUST AN AD. The voting is not linked to the value of the content. Thus, most of whale's SP pools are just using for nothing.

Honestly, we are quite stressful nowadays because we also invested our pocket money to have a DApp business based on Steem. I believe our project can create lots of values on Steem community - I explained our vision on our launching post here. We have a short-term plan to compete with Product Hunt to attract users from more than 8 mil MAU pools. We have also mid-term plan to make HUNT token economy based on SMT platform to create "Product Influencer's Crowd Funding Platform."

To do this, we are running SP delegation program by giving 5% rewards to the delegators. The explanations of this program is here. So far we gathered 22k from 14 delegators. We feel very thanksful to them because they delegated their precious SP to us even though THEY COULD GAIN FAR HIGHER PROFITS IF THEY DELEGATED IT TO BID BOTS. They delegated to us because they believe that investing Steem DApp proejcts are very crucial for Steem's long-term growth.

We really think this situation should be changed. The start-ups like us on Steem are struggling a lot to receive SP delegations from whales because of bid bots. And those bid bots are not creating ANY SINGLE VALUE ON STEEM.

I'm sorry for self-voting on my comment, but I just want to make people realise the problems of delegating bid bots. Thanks for reading my opinion.

I just wrote about this issue on my post here - https://steemit.com/steem/@project7/bid-bots-are-killing-steem.

I now use SteemAuto. I've selected the people I want to upvote on a regular basis, mostly photographers, as that's my main interest. I don't use all my voting power. so I can still do some manual curation. I can turn the automatic voting on or off and adjust it as much as I like. It took too much time to do everything manually, I think this is the best compromise I've found so far.

Can you give an indication of what the return would be per SP delegated!

My bot currently pays out about 1 Steem a day per 1,000 Steem power delegated which equals about 0.1% interest a day. This changes as the Steem and SBD price go up and down!

Thanks for the confirmation. Something to consider!

When does the boy pay out? Is it every 24 hours?

Yes every 24 hours automatic payouts on my bot!

I don’t want to judge you my friend!

But I’ll never use bots for auto voting here on Steemit.

If you really don’t have time to spend here then take your money and invest in other crypto. Steemit is more about contribution and giving and learning, then it’s about reward.

lmao this is bullshit. You are trying to justify selling your vote, because deep down, you know it is only for profit. It's your stake to do with what you want, so cut the bs. lol

This guy Steems - you seem like the kind of people I wanna fux with on here gave ya a follow. Have a good one dude!

I don't really care what people do, just keep the shit 100. He knows this is bs. The only person benefiting from him selling his vote is him. I have no problem with that part. His stake, he can do what he wants. I just don't like the lies. FOH you're grown. Do wtf you want!

Totally agree man - ppl hide behind the lies they tell themselves - I tried to play fair my first 2 months here - no bots ever - spending hours or days creating content - got no where - I lucked out with a Curie vote - rolled that money over into a month of scheduled bot votes - .250 -10 sbd a post made a bit of coin - not planning on cashing out ever - I used his bot - wasn't happy with the return. Next month I'm going back to no bots / converting all my SBD into STEEM power - the sad thing is there is very little engagement - I've got over 500 followers and only 10-15 are active and vote / comment / resteem - that dynamic is the incentive to use the bots - there may not be ads here or algorithms persay but the vote bots have created a pay to win paradigm. I wrote 2 posts calling out some big players a while back

https://steemit.com/steemit/@emwalker/when-your-post-is-so-good-people-upvote-without-actually-reading-it

And then this one a day later when coincidentally the view counter was removed

https://steemit.com/steemit/@emwalker/view-counter-removed-from-posts-f-king-horse-shit

Once they pulled the view counter I kind of said fuck it and doubled down on the bots. Next month will be interesting to see how much I make from all my hard work.

Anywho thanks for replying. Take care.

I kind of agree!

I don't no what i would do without bots tbh...

i really appreciate your work sir keep it up :)

@jerrybanfield

To be honest, I'm not reading your text today. But I'm sure it says what great things you do.

If you really did something good, you'd give the information, what the ROI of your bot is to https://steembottracker.com.
All that the user can see there is the word "none".
We think it is -25%?

We lost about 28% (19 SBD) by useing your bot.

And what's about the many beginners who send their last 1 dollar to your every day and get absolutely nothing back?
https://steemit.com/@jerrybanfield/transfers

Do you think this is fair?

@resteem.bot

Thanks Jerry. I always use your bot hahaha. And is very interesting to read your experience as a Bot. I've read a lot of articles of people experience using a bot, but never the experience of being a bot. Regards from Venezuela!

I've delegated 1100 SP to you & set you as proxy. Keep up the great work!

Oh really very good information for us. No more here. Just i'm going for using the system.
thanks for your great share

Today, my steem account has approved after 6 days. After creating my account i was waiting for approved. At the same time i was watching your youtube video about steemit. That's was very helpful for me. And i have dicided to my first comment will be with your post.
Thank you very much for all.

Welcome man! I think my comment will be first in you replies section lol....All the best!

yes! it is 1st reply at steemit for me..

Wow nice reviews, since i got to read it to the very last, i believe everyone here on steemit have it in mind to make profits and the end point is actually to make the platform grow better too.
With bots i believe some minnows have been giving a chance of earning high even though somtimes they get low payouts too but the end point is, it still helps in one way or another.

Thanks for sharing @jerrybanfield

This is a lot of information. But, it's valuable to understand. Thanks for sharing!

While your use of the rewards for positive purposes on the platform you can't deny that this is fraudulent use of the platform. I'm aware you have invested a lot into the platform but the use of the voting bots is bad for everyone. To best aid everyone less effort of maintaining a stake is better.

He knows that, which is why he is trying to justify it here. Smoke and Mirrors......... Jerry puts in a lot of work. I used to respect him for that, but in the end, he's the same. It's all about profit. Imagine if politicians could buy vo........ nevermind. They do and it sucks. lol

Yeah I have actually learned some stuff about steem from a few of his youtube videos. He puts out good content mostly just the management of steem currencies is not cool. Its funny how you compared a blogger to a politician but yeah same sht. Nothing serves as a better example than Pharma Bro.

Excelente Post, jerry. Mientras leia tu análisis, me decía para dentro de mi: Si Jerry estaba medio loco con todo esto de la curaduria manual o automática que quedara para nosotros los mortales de steemit...jajaj y es que cada vez que logro conectar ha alguien a la plataforma lo que más me cuenta explicarle a la gente es como e gana y como garantizar sus ganancias y que invierta en la plataforma.

Me encuentro que la gente en su miseria no le importa votar a veces ni a ellos mismos. Por eso creo que en steemit en alguna parte de la publicación deberíamos incluir el voto obligatorio de cada usuario. Es tan pequeña la cantidad de personas que votan que creo no se llega a 450 sbd diarios de manera Manual.

Bueno te felicito y que bueno que puedas sacar de las criticas buenos aprendizajes para todos.

Gracias por el apoyo a @steemplus muy buena aplicación que creo tu eres su donante principal.

Un abrazo

...rafa

@jerrybanfield how does one setup a delegation to your bot?

There are many strategies that we can use, but to start I recommend the bot because our voting power is low and there would be no profits

9ood articel.

Well, that's clearly analysis of the bit bot. Finally i found the problem and solution here...

interesting comparison that you give us @jerrybanfield from my point of view it is better to give positive feedback manually instead of using @steemvoter but it is up to each person it is also a great application, I also liked the part you talk about @fundition and https://steembottracker.com /

Very helpful article, it is good lesson for the new Steemit member like me.
Thanks a lot for sharing all these important information.

Good information

I have got many information from your every post as well as this. you make us very much perfect teaching the rule like a mentor.thanks @jerrybanfield stay with us. can you pls check my profile and resteem my post to help growing like your soldier. if you pls help me to publish my own post. thanks again brother.

very useful information. thank you for sharing this Mr. @jerrybanfield

Ka meurumpok bg juna lom di sinoe....

Sellows brother , , Salam Sevenfingers :)

Has anyone here had a good experience delegating on Steemit? Wondering if it is something I should get into at some point. Thanks.

Reading this comment helped me see the need to show the ups and downs of voting bots along with my experience but at time i tried to post some thing like this but steemit does not encourage me and no one seems to upvote my post.

Congratulations @jerrybanfield!
Your post was mentioned in the Steemit Hit Parade in the following category:

  • Upvotes - Ranked 4 with 1035 upvotes

This was a well informed article!

Your bot sucks i spent amount with booster and he paid way more why you so cheap with the votes?

IMG_20180519_203641.jpg

que aplicación es esta?? saludos

The upvotes on each post is based on the bids. My bot tends to be competitive which reduces the profitability as a bidder sometimes

Hello @jerrybanfield , u have not shown calculations how much in percent terms a delegator earns by delegating to u vs if he self upvotes. These calculations will provide huge clarity to potential delegators like me. I have some 100k sp in my network that I wish to delegate