Response: Is It Evil To Join The Military?
So I was naturally drawn to this post asking whether it was evil to join the military from @jakemccauley. Seeing as how I'm apparently like, one of three military veterans active on this platform, I'd have to take a peek at this post and see why it was doing so well... and then I read it.
Wow. Such original thought... I haven't heard this argument, like 100 times yet... this was probably only the 87th time I've heard this one.
When given the option between admitting you're either a idiotic dupe OR a baby killer, which would YOU choose?
I choose neither, and I'll actually write why with supporting evidence, no less!
So lets dive in. All quotes from the original article.
Surely I'd be entirely unfree, not able to voice my heretical opinions, if not for our friends and family members in costume traveling to the other side of the planet and blowing brown people to scalding bloody bits.
Aww man... why do they have to be brown? You weren't even a few paragraphs in yet.
What a piece of shit I must be for even asking it. Nobody should ever question our lord and savior Uncle Sam, or anybody that carries out his holy will.
Wait. How did YOU become the victim in this all of the sudden?
Don't believe me? Look at the military's chain of command structure. You'll notice that at the very top of it is not you, it is not I, it is whoever had business sponsors wealthy enough to become the President of the United States; the Commander in Chief of the military.
Your premise being that each "chain" along the way is an unthinking, brainwashed cog amidst a larger machine? There are consequences for following orders that violate the Law of Land Warfare and the consequences are as bad as those doled out to those giving the orders. However, I get the feeling that doesn't matter in the slightest to you.
The politicians base their military decisions on the lucrative interests of their partners in the war manufacturing industry - the guys that build the tanks, drones, jets, etc - which receive trillions of dollars that were stolen from you.
I wholeheartedly agree with you here. And I've actually seen it!
And yes, if you think about it objectively, taxation is clearly theft.
Hmm. You must have forgot to explain why. This is not "clearly" theft in every instance. Perhaps a topic for another time?
No, taxes are not necessary to have infrastructural services and defense, and modern wars aren't initiated for defense in the first place.
If there are no taxes period, then a nation would be hard pressed to exist as a cohesive unit, or at least the capacity to act as a cohesive unit easily. This seems like a horribly complicated topic to try and debate when trying simultaneously to convince your audience that people who join the military are either evil or fools.
If you believe that a group of people with the power to selectively allocate trillions of continuously stolen dollars, is not receiving a hefty cut of those dollars in exchange for some of the most lucrative contracts on the planet, and that these politicians, of all people, actually have more integrity than normal people would in the same scenario, and that these bureaucrats are actually acting selflessly under the delusion that slaughtering middle eastern people indiscriminately is actually in the interest of the American people, then you're the insane conspiracy theorist.
Read above for my feelings on military-industrial complex. The only people "slaughtering middle eastern people indiscriminately" is those seeking to spread the tentacles of Shariah Law (read: pretty fucking un-Anarchy) across the globe. PS - This is the longest paragraph I've read in a very long time.
The parasite class - the politicians - know mass-murder evil. They know it's not at all defensive, and they know they're bathing in blood money. They do not give a fuck.
While I prefer to avoid stuffing masses of people into labels based solely on demographics, I think I probably agree with your sentiment here.
I could rant about the military industrial complex for hours, but let's just get back to the original question;
Yes. Please do.
You swear an oath. An oath to defend and uphold a piece of parchment (The Constitution) which advocates that one group of people should rob everybody else in order to fund its own monopolistic, socialistic, and virtually unilateral versions of law, defense, justice, and arbitration.
If you're talking about the 16th Amendment, I'm in agreement with you there. But you seem to hate the Constitution as a whole, so I'm going to have to disagree with you in general there.
Hell, I tried to join the military myself when I was seventeen.
Well now you have my curiosity piqued. I'm sure you didn't get bounced out because of the ASVAB, so what happened? I only ask because your opinion of the military (and apparently anyone within it) is apparently shaded by that experience.
Do you think the military of Nazi Germany was made up of evil monsters with horns willing to die in the name of murder and destruction?
No. I know through study of history that they were made up of a core cadre of devoted followers and believers in the cause who snuffed out dissent and opposition through violence, murder, and coercion. This devotion 'to the Cause' was virtually religious in nature due to the master race ideology Hmm.. now that I mention it, this sounds remarkably similar to Muslims seeking to spread Shariah Law through violence, murder, and coercion. That's pretty religious too and they're actually killing people by the thousands in mass graves too. What a coincidence. But lets get back to your REAL enemy here...
It's uncomfortable to think about, but the Nazi troops were generally just regular guys that believed they were "serving their country", much like our friends and family members in modern American armed forces.
Yes. Many of them were. But the SS Officers lived by a slightly different code of ethics. Who do you think ran that show? PS -- appreciate the allegory between German mass graves and American military in modern wars. Your capacity to willfully ignore differences in scale and scope while making a point is impressive.
The people that join the politicians' military are certainly not inherently evil people, they are normal people deceived into signing up to do evil things.
Ah. Thank you for that out. Better to be an easily manipulated dupe than to be a blood thirsty baby killer, eh?
I despise the military, but I love how you tear his arguments to pieces. Chapeau!
Hah... that comment is worth more than you could guess :D
I don't get it.
If justice without the State is not only possible but preferable, which in my opinion is far more complicated than a military, then I think it is at least possible that defense could be secured the same way as well.
It's a very deep topic, and that's why instead of approaching the military head on, which may be a bit of an emotional hot spot, I think it may be useful to explore these concepts in relation to other important things the government does and then extrapolate out those ideas from those principles.
I have many friends in the military. I know that they are good people. I know that their hearts and intentions are 100% in the right place. People in the military aren't necessarily bad or being duped, rather most are trying their best to utilize their skills to help the world in a way that they think is the best that they can.
Either way, just know that even as an anarchist, I respect the shit out of you :)
This looks like a good resource! I'm going to read through it too!
Greatly appreciated. Those that I count as brothers respect people with minds sharp enough to question authority and stand up when necessary. I certainly think you could be counted in that category.
Natural allies, as far as I can tell!
This is precisely why I respect people who have been leaders in the military so much. All the low intelligence, sheep-like responses in the other thread makes me realize how truly fucked we are as a society. I like a lot of aspects of anarchism, but many arguments for it are incredibly naive.
Here is my response in the other thread:
I'm inclined to agree with you intuitively; however, the more I learn about people who were in the military, the more I respect them. I highly recommend listening to the Jocko Podcast and Martyrmade Podcast.
I think the average person is incredibly gullible and naive compared to people who have been in leadership positions in the military.
Also read this: https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@blakemiles84/i-m-a-former-green-beret-and-here-s-how-i-would-bring-down-bitcoin
There are some kinds of wisdom that you simply cannot learn as a civilian.
--from Blood Meridian
Some critiques simply aren't valid unless you have experienced the warrior lifestyle. I've never been in the military, but I tend to respect military people far more than keyboard warriors who don't understand the full scope of the situation.
I'd like to say that an army isn't necessary an utopia, but in the current moment, it is absolutely necessary. Note that this does not mean that I support wars at all. Smart commanders are very good at maneuvering to avoid conflicts while accomplishing their objectives. This is why they are often sought after in the business world.
If there's anything better than an upvote, you'd get it from me for that one @limitless. Thank you.
Agreed! I especially like this bit:
Yes! We don’t live an a utopia, and probably never will. In order for anarchism to be seen as feasible, the people that are proponents of it need to address ways that it would solve real world problems. Utopia is a great intellectual exercise but it is not reality.
It’s good to see some similar minds on the platform. I just posted an article earlier today with some issues I see with anarchism. So far debate has been pretty civil, I would love to have your voices added to the conversation @blakemiles84 and @limitless, as I’m sure it would be enlightening! The article is here if you have time: https://steemit.com/anarchism/@jaredcwillis/the-problem-with-anarchism-an-open-minded-challenge
Also, I don’t want to be self-promotey so let me know if you want me to take this down and I will.
Thank you. You're definitely one of my favorite people to follow here. Follow back? (Only if you think my content is worthy)
Absolutely! Sometimes I forget to use Follow when its right in front of me :)
I love to see steemit bringing people together. Two articulate leaders. Thank you for your contributions.
Nice rebuttal. I was tempted to dive into the original but stayed away... former USMC here ;-)
There are a variety of reasons I joined, however on the issue of loyalty, it is to my brothers in arms, my countrymen and to the Constitution, not politicians.
I take my oath seriously, and should/when the long train of abuses and usurpations lead absolute Despotism, I stand ready to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for our future security.
:-)
Here's what I don't get.. The poster wrote
.. and you responded
Am I missing something? If you've seen this and agree, you already lost your argument.
So you're saying that because I've seen the results of the military industrial complex while on a deployment, I'm either evil or a dupe? That's rather... confusing.
What funding politicians acquire for budgets and who they employ to execute those contracts is almost entirely out of the hands of 95+% of military personnel.
Perhaps we've crossed lines on what the argument actually is? I'm arguing that its possible to be NEITHER a dupe or an evil baby killer AND join the military. Not sure how actually seeing what the military industrial complex looks like overseas negates my argument?
Well, if you KNOW they're acting on profit and illegitimate motives, I'm curious why you'd argue in their defense.
If we look at this from a standpoint based strictly on evidence, then yes. Joining the military DOES make you a dupe. Mainly because every single war in history has had a fabricated motive when the true, proveable initiative is power for special interests. This is proven, using economics and history.
Therefore, you would be duped into joining because you had no knowledge of how government or war actually works and that soldiers are not fighting in defense of freedom, but instead fighting an offensive battle to promote the growth of the wealthy who influence the military.
Enjoy your day.
Because I'm not childish enough to believe that this is a simple black and white topic of "corruption" vs "non-corruption". There are legitimate threats in this world. How I think they should be approached and how elected politicians and un-elected bureaucrats decide to approach it are two different things, in or out of uniform.
I like the majority of the voluntaryist/anarchist principles that I've been seeing in here. I'm curious as to why there is antagonism towards one population known for an appreciation of individual liberty (combat veterans are big into this).
Not a very wise strategic move. We should be natural allies, but I feel like I'm arguing in a college classroom with kids fresh out of their parents houses proclaiming how things should be without discussing how to practically get from A to B.
Childish was the operative word I was going to use...
This has been one of my biggest issues with anarchism/voluntaryism. I don't feel like the vast majority of our citizens are capable of rationally deciding how to handle these threats. Further, many of these threats will require the intervention of those that are skilled in handling them (with military, police, intelligence experience). Either way there will be military organizations. I much prefer an organization with some semblance of fighting for ideals or a cause, than one that is simply sold out to the highest bidder. In fact, in the case of mercenaries, the question of is it evil to join becomes even more relevant. It seems to me that many of the anarchist elements on this platform repeat themselves and stick to a script ad nauseum that doesn't work in the real world. The real world is messy; and good and evil aren't always black and white (like you said). These people seem to rely far too much on society always doing the right thing, which doesn't always happen.
There is no reply available for your comment in another thread, so I'm sorry for replying out of thread.
Did @smooth explain the shared payout to your satisfaction? Now that you know how it actually works, I hope you will be able to understand why I said what I did.
Cheers
Some join with honest devotion to their nation to uphold the constitution of which all military members must swear to protect upon entry.
I joined at the age of 17 and there was a degree of pride that went into that admittedly. But you develop an appreciation of freedom since you know what a lack of freedom looks and feels like, plus you see people around the globe living under the thumbs of people more willing to employ violence than them.
The United States is far from perfect (particularly with our current corrupt administration), but the ideals on which the nation was founded upon resonate with me. I'm surprised to see this sort of hate towards the ideals of the Constitution coming from the anarcho/voluntaryist crowd on here, but I suppose I shouldn't be that surprised.
For me, Constitution > parties. The seed for independent, viable, lasting freedom is baked into the structure of it.
Naturally, any enemies of free will seek to squelch out that drive towards independence because it makes it harder to keep people under their thumbs.
^ Therefore not all enlistment or commissions are evil.
That was well said. Almost good enough to forgive your earlier shot concerning "lobotomies and SGMs". Though, being honest, I had the most trouble with peers in that community. It seems that, for most of them, matching socks and PT belts are the highest priority they can imagine.
Speaking to your reply; The thing I find most troubling with most of the pro-anarchy posts is the assumption that, having seen the anarchic light, they are so enamored by their own brilliance that they boast of a higher intellectual capacity. Perhaps it is advancing years, but I find it difficult to swallow any argument that makes such assumptions. I have also found myself humbled by reality - more often than I would like to admit. It, therefore, occurs to me that those who make assumptions about the intellect and subsequent motivations, of an entire group of highly skilled and dedicated people, have not had the benefit of a significant humbling experience in the real world.
Over all I believe it's not right to be a hired hand for anyone unless you 100% believe in what they believe in, not just one thing like freedom. I am not a believe in these proactive strike first interventionist war drama that we are involved in. These corporation wars can not be justified. There was a time where I believed I was going to join the army. And I really appreciate anyone that has served in any of the military branches, I have many in my family and I hold them high in respect, but I don't like suffering for money. :$
Well you're not joining with the foreknowledge of your entire chain of command, so the only thing you can base that "100% believe" you mention is the Constitution, since it's built into the Oath.
There is a good deal of "suffering" in the military, but that is subjective. I learned a lot, sweat a lot, and spent a lot of time away from family. Double-edged sword, as with most things in life.
This is a very nuanced issue so making blanket statements that insult an entire group of people is very low-level thinking. Reminds me of Trump supporters.
There's also a nuanced view of choosing Trump over Hillary after a careful analysis, and my position is that Trump is lower risk than Hillary, but I get that you mean the stereotype.
For my full analysis, check out this post: https://steemit.com/antifragile/@limitless/preventing-human-extinction-disasters-antifragility-and-externalities-in-politics
I wasn't talking about choosing Trump. I was talking about the behavior of many of his supporters. I guess that would be a blanket statement as well. It doesn't matter Trump is going to lose.
Haha, I was thinking that it doesn't matter because regardless of who wins, we all lose.
I'd give the edge to Trump for being more entertaining and better at identifying some important problems, but his solutions are questionable, possibly counterproductive, and he will probably be considered one of the worst presidents by many simply due to the current state of the world.
It took me a day to find this, but I'm here now as one of the few other vets on Steemit.
There are very intelligible reasons for being against military service. Many scholars have advanced that argument over the years, and they most surely hold water.
What doesn't hold water is a blind verbal drive by that generalizes (read: trivializes) the lives of anyone. No two things are the same, whether we're discussing armies, countries, or people. To draw from history is wise, to grossly shoehorn the lessons from history to fit a vitriolic sentiment is, sadly, too common.
Is blind obedience bad? Yes, that's why I left the military.
Is the world we have the world we want? No it is not.
Is it the military's fault? I don't believe so. Money talks in America.
I do not believe that armies and war are the answer. I would urge that dude to take the energy he has against the military and better place it among the cronyists, lobbyists, and the financial powers that make up the oligarchical structure under which America's military now operates. We don't get mad at the gun, we get mad at the shooter.
On the world stage, the American Modern Military is a gun, wielded by others.
@blakemile84. As a veteran myself I agree with you on this one. I was far from a dupe or a baby-killer. It seems to me that the people who so love writing and preaching on topics such as this fall into one of two primary categories (though this doesn't include all of them). Those are:
I have also noticed the fact that everyone of the people writing and preaching this stuff seem to forget exactly how this country has never been directly invaded. Yes, we have been attacked. Pearl Harbor and 9/11/2001 were both calculated and deliberate attacks on U.S. soil, but never invaded. That is because of us and men and women like us, The United States military. If we get rid of the military you and I know that this country will suddenly be a sitting duck and it wouldn't take long before another country came over and took us over by force. It seems that they have this vision that you can remove the armed forces of America and the country will carry on exactly as it is. Until that delusion changes then we will never win our argument against them. Maybe they'll wake up when they find themselves hiding behind one of our highly trained butts begging us to save them and waiting for us to TELL them what to do and where to go so that they can survive. Oh, wait, I forgot, we're dupes...until then all I can say is that it was my pleasure serving in the military so that people like this can continue hating us and insulting us thanks to that pesky piece of "parchment" mentioned in this post. What was it called again? Oh yeah, The Constitution.
No, I do not agree with the politicians most times and I never blindly followed a single order. There was always thought involved and consequences weighed. That said, I'd gladly do it all again. Thanks for your service @blakemiles84. If you get time, check out my posts and let me know what you think.