Feminism has been tainted, and so it has lost most of its power.

in #feminism8 years ago (edited)

Why don't people want to join feminism, even if they support gender equality?

People don't want to be told what political or social groups to join, right? Especially if there's a bit of a threat involved. Being seen as sexist, or a bad person, just for not joining a movement is a problem.

People are getting pissed off that they need to be part of a specific political and social movement, or else they get insulted and told they have to join- or they're bigots or something. Has this happened to you?

But why not join? What's wrong with feminism?

On the surface, nothing. Feminism according to feminists is "A movement supporting gender equality".

Just like a religion to a religious person might boil down to "Love others, love god," or something similar.

But as we boil it down, we might forget that the water we're boiling is still there. A religion is not composed of a single sentence, nor is feminism composed only of gender equality. There is more to it. Little tiny things that some people ignore, but others notice. I don't think a person can be honest, yet say "Feminism is only pushing for gender equality, and has no other motives", just as a person cannot honestly say "Religion only wants peace". It's not a secret that religions have a lot of rules and caveats to them, such as rituals, clothing and prayers.

Feminism is the same way, and it's why a lot of people refuse to be feminist, while still supporting gender equality.

This is simply how it is. I didn't choose for the world to be this way, it just is, so please don't get mad at me for bringing this up. People often strongly disagree with being feminist, and those same people often still fight strongly for gender equality. They publicly declare support for gender equality, so this isn't just a platitude.

Why are people rejecting feminism in such a way? Is it uncomfortable experiences with feminists? Is it the word itself? Feminism is a gendered word, and that cannot be denied. Feminism can said to mean the same as "gender equality", but then why not just say "gender equality" instead of feminism? Or could it be that there is more to feminism than "gender equality"? Ideas like the patriarchy, or privilege, go beyond "gender equality", and often include a lot of weird stuff, which if put into law, would be extremely oppressive.

People who are especially motivated will informally censor others. I'm sure you've heard of the SJW.
Censorship doesn't fly with me for any reason. I can't help but feel that they are censoring people in some form, and you might feel this way too.

Not all censorship is implemented by governments and violent force. Being able to say to someone, "Don't mansplain", is a way of saying "Your opinion doesn't count because you are a man". I never see the inverse. I never see a man telling a women that her opinion doesn't count because she's a woman.

This sort of one-sided attack will instantly drive men away from modern feminism. That's just how it is. It doesn't matter if it's fair to feminists or even logical. Maybe feminism as it is is already perfect.

But it will drive away men who don't want to feel bad for being born male. Humans don't choose their sex at birth, so using words like "mansplain", which I've heard enough to bring up now, is extremely oppressive to me. It shuts down the conversation. You can't argue with being called sexist by a person who views a particular sex as being inherently sexist just for existing.

"Stop talking, and listen", is something else I've heard, but I've only seen it said by feminists. Of course it makes sense to listen to a person's story if you want to understand them, but I get the feeling the "stop talking" aspect is indefinite. Even if a person says "I'm pro-gender equality", until that person says "I'm a feminist", the sort of feminist who would say such a thing will continue to look down on this person.

I get the feeling that a person who says "Don't talk, listen", does not in fact wish to listen themselves. In conversations I've seen where a sentence like that is uttered, I get the feeling that it's said only because the person saying it does not want debate. They want to win by default, and have no reason to question their views.

Simply making society unfriendly towards dissent of an opinion will stifle opinions and free-speech. Even if I personally disagree with the opinion, I still don't think it should be censored. But even worse than that, opinions that aren't even necessarily hostile towards gender equality are often attacked. This sort of feeling makes me think of how both democrats and republicans both openly attack libertarians/others.

A person who is gender equality friendly, but not a feminist, will be attacked by feminists, yet this person will still be against sexism. This is a problem, isn't it? This sort of thing that I've noticed happening, is going to make people turn against feminism. And it has.

Problems like this are keeping people from feminism. I don't want to push away potential allies by saying "You have to join my movement, or you're a bad person." That's not how I work.

There's also some talk about "Codes of Conduct", that have been occurring lately.
There's been heavy discussion regarding websites where programmers hang out, and how they should adopt a code of conduct: one that is feminist in nature. This sort of thing has caused quite a few people to become extremely angry. They don't like being told what they can and cannot say, especially when there have been no issues.

When a code of conduct is introduced, despite the community already functioning well, there is a reason to question motivations, and if not motivations, at least question the logic of doing such a thing. If Steemit suddenly adopted a code of conduct, it might be subtle at first, but people would feel censored. They'd think "Am I allowed to post an article like this?" This article for instance, could be flagged just for questioning a popular viewpoint, could it not? That sort of thing is extremely dangerous. Censorship is not an option Steemit can make. If this place becomes censored, people will leave.

I've noticed zero actual sexism here, but there's already been a popular post saying we need to clean up the general chat channel. This makes no sense to me. I've seen no issues, unless you see normal human interaction as inherently bad, so why should it need to be cleaned up? It seems like censorship for no good reason, and when applied to a place like Steemit, where ideas should be able to flow freely, I can't help but question motivations.

That's why a lot of people, even on Steemit, I'd imagine, will happily support gender equality, but NOT feminism.
Personally, I do agree with a lot of feminist ideas, and general concepts of freedom. The right to do with your body as you wish, the right to be involved with politics, the right to work, the right to choose your own destiny, I'm in agreement with all that.

Not only that, but I strongly support the idea of "Free speech with a positive mindset". That means you should be able to say anything you want, while remembering that it's up to you to make the community a friendly place. Insulting people or being hostile will achieve very little for yourself. But at the end of the day, it's up to you to form the philosophies that guide your life.

So what do you think?

Comment if you have an opinion. I want to hear it.
Let's all listen to each other; I see no reason to view anyone here as my enemy.

~Kitten

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Radical feminists have given intersectional feminists a bad name!

It's not radical feminism that gave feminism a bad name, but media propaganda who chose to represent radical feminism as feminism. The media intentionally gives feminism a bad name. And people don't want to associate with bad names.

The core value of feminism is of course gender equality. And if you believe in gender equality but you don't wish to identify with the word then it's due to misinformation or misinterpretation. Feminism is incredibly complex and contradictory which I believe is what causes people to reject it. There will always be something within feminism that you firmly disagree with.

The question is not are you a feminist, but what kind of feminist beliefs do you hold.

For instance one side of feminism believes that women who flaunt their bodies to the male gaze are reinforcing female objectification. Then there is another feminist argument which completely contradicts this, which is that women should be free to express their sexuality without feeling shame, and even to sell themselves should be a right that does not compromise other peoples respect for them.

Feminism is not just a movement. In fact, it began as a study. This study is the reason that the word feminism is gendered. It started out as a study of femininity because they understood that femininity was a constructed gender. It other words, they studied how feminine behaviour is learned through growing up in a world that treats girls differently to boys. But of course, as this study progressed they realised femininity is not the only learned gender but masculity is too. And so it became part of the exact same study.

Feminism is as much for men as it is for women. In fact, I would go as far to say that when it comes to parenthood, it is fathers who are oppressed. It is in men's interest to be feminist if they are ever to fight against the pre-conception that mothers are more nurturing by nature. If they wish to be able to change their own babies nappy in a restroom like mothers can, then it is actually in mens interest to study feminism so that they can coherently bring up these issues of gender inequality.

The problem with many feminists - often the loudest ones - is they think the fact that they call themselves feminist put them above others. These feminists abuse the name and often say things are feminist or "against feminism" when in fact feminism is not an argument, it's a conversation. One in which we all have different views. One of my favourite talks on feminism is this one by a 15 year old entrepreneur.

Couldn't have said it better myself! Thank you!

The core value of feminism is of course gender equality. And if you believe in gender equality but you don't wish to identify with the word then it's due to misinformation or misinterpretation. Feminism is incredibly complex and contradictory which I believe is what causes people to reject it. There will always be something within feminism that you firmly disagree with.

Feminism is as much for men as it is for women. In fact, I would go as far to say that when it comes to parenthood, it is fathers who are oppressed. It is in men's interest to be feminist if they are ever to fight against the pre-conception that mothers are more nurturing by nature. If they wish to be able to change their own babies nappy in a restroom like mothers can, then it is actually in mens interest to study feminism so that they can coherently bring up these issues of gender inequality.

Can this be fixed?

I don't want to hang around and support a dead-end movement.
If feminism has truly become tainted, I'm off that boat, and onto a boat that isn't going to sink.

"Feminism" is extremely tainted but I don't think it's outlived its usefulness just yet.

I don't think it's a dead-end movement at all. Just because some people involved are bad, doesn't mean all people involved are bad. Same goes for anything else. I think it can be rectified.

How so?

As long as some feminists keep being so "radical", I think there will be a problem.
This might seem pessimistic, but I don't think good people are noticed as much as loud people are.

It's harder for good people to make a movement look good, than it is for bad people to make a movement look bad, isn't it?

Hmm, not necessarily. A lot of people are learning to distinguish the two and decide what side they are on, myself included. A lot of "controversial" movements ended up being mostly successful. The American Revolution, Civil Rights, etc...

Yay! I like being inclusive. I've got a lot of weirdo friends, and there's no way I'd want them discriminated against. I think everyone deserves some love, especially the Hitlers of the world. =p

You said "Hmm, not necessarily. A lot of people are learning to distinguish the two and decide what side they are on, myself included. A lot of "controversial" movements ended up being mostly successful. The American Revolution, Civil Rights, etc..."
__

So you think people will fully separate SJWs from feminism, and continue to support feminism?

Why not just start fresh, and not worry about that at all? Is there a reason to use the word "feminism"? A lot of people refuse to join just because of the word itself. They say a word like "feminism" is inherently sexist, because of the "fem" part.

Certainly think it's possible!

Personally, I don't think it's sexist, but I can see why people would think that. I think that is one of the reasons intersectional feminism was born-- to be non-exclusive. :)

Leftists REALLY need to get a life and stop looking so hard for things to be angry about...haven't you people divided our society enough w/your bullshit?

@heretickitten, love the post! As a male who isn't a feminist for the reasons you mentioned, I have some thoughts about it that you might find interesting.

  1. I prefer the word egalitarian because it implies equality without the gendered word. I know feminists beg to differ but lets face it: a gendered name doesn't imply equality.
  2. If feminists believe in equality, why don't they focus on men's issues (longer prison sentences for the same crime, higher prison population, more likely to be murdered, etc.) Also, I heard about a man who started a shelter for male victims of domestic abuse. Feminists bullied him into suicide. This is why feminism has been tainted.
  3. Feminists should prioritize women's rights in the Middle East, especially Saudi Arabia, over stupid sh*t like mansplaning. All across the world, women are beaten, raped, and mutilated without consequence for the attacker. Where's the outrage?
  4. Feminists need to stop floating around debunked claims. The survey that concluded 1 in 4 women are raped in college never mentioned the word once. I know the wage gap seems plausible, but it doesn't account for the general pattern of time off from work. I am all for equal pay, but there isn't a wage gap.

You are definitely one of the more rational feminists and I applaud you for that. You should be the poster child of feminism instead of trigglypuff and trash can girl.

This is EXACTLY the way I feel about it too! Well said bro!

Wait, I'm a feminist? I actually put myself into the "egalitarian" camp, just like you, to be honest.
But to be straight: I don't like labels. I like individual ideas.

Not to mention that Feminists vociferously oppose Intactivists, who are campaigning against all forms of genital mutilation, male, female, and intersex, on the grounds that only females are worthy of protection.

You bring up good points. I personally stay away from "isms" because they are usually politically exploited for some underlying agenda. For me its about giving everybody the respect and freedom to be and do what they want to do, and what expresses best who they truly are. A lot of that should be common sense. I have come across the type of feminist, who justifies behaviors for women, that would be harshly criticized in men. That is not just. I also do not think that women are better people and deserve special treatment. Yes, women should have the right to decide about their bodies and lives...it's almost absurd, that this needs discussion, but now look at this:
I know women who vote for Hillary Clinton, because she is a woman. We shouldn't vote for someone because their sex because it is sexist. She is a total psychopath with a long trail of crimes committed...why is that ok? Because she is a woman and claims to be a feminist? A guy would be under massive scrutiny by now. If you are a man and you wage war and destroy countries for profit and kill innocent people, you are a neocon warmonger. If you are a woman all that doesn't matter?
I have a lot of lovely woman friends but I also have experienced a lot of really cruel, fucked up shit done by women and still wonder what this"sisterhood" is all about, that's being referred to in feminist circles. So, anyhow, back to respect and freedom for all people as long as it doesn't hurt no one else. That way, we have less division and more dialogue and maybe we can look at some of the real shit we are in. Common sense!
By the way...I am a woman.

I have no problem with feminism... But I'd rather support equality for all. That's worthy of one's devotion; true equality.

Whether or not the entire feminism culture has been hijacked one way or the other, it's a topic of conjecture really.

My philosophy, is that we're all one. You don't have to promote feminism, because I've got your back in any event. (Metaphorically speaking of course; I'm not labeling you in any way other than being that of a human).

Regarding sexism, I'm not overly sensitive to it; I have really thick skin, but don't make fun of anyone. (When I was a young immature brat well, that's a different story. How's that for a damaging admission?).

;)

Stay cool.

@rook

You're cool with me if I'm cool with you.

I think that equality for all is the best route to take. It's simple, easy to define, the word/phrase itself says what you'd think it means, and you can't easily tack on additional political ideas. It stands alone strongly.

I think that radical feminism is selfdefeating. At least, that is if I understand how it works correctly. If not, please tell me where to look more info up.
So, as I was saying, self defeating. Any group that defines itself mostly by being antagonistic to another group, but speaks of things like "equality" with that other group is... weird? I mean, if gender equality is achieved, then there is no reason for radical femenism to exist. So, at the core it can't be right (or maybe it can, and I just don't understand), at least not in a sense that makes you put you 100% effort in that stated goal. Thing is, for a lot of radical feminists being feminist is something that they build a big part of their identity, right? And undermining your own identity is something most people wouldn't want to do. At least there are powerful forces that may not be concious that are against it.
That is my thought on the matter, and I like the idea of gender equality quite a bit.

I value your work, keep it coming!!

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