Are Women Who Dress Provocatively Responsible for Unwanted Attention, or Should Men Learn to Control Themselves?

in #ecotrain6 years ago


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There are three words that stand out for me in @ecotrain's polarising question of the week - 'provocative' 'responsible' and 'control'.

Firstly, I unequivocally will argue that everyone is responsible for controlling their desires, knowing the impact that it may have on them and the world. Human beings have the power of free will and it is no excuse to say that 'that's how men are wired'. Sure, that maybe true - yet since when did we allow genetics to rule human behaviour? We could argue the same is true for paedophiles - would you argue that children are asking for it? This may be an extreme analogy, but the point I'm trying to make is that we all have self-control, and to not exercise that whilst knowing your actions are wrong is immoral. I never subscribe to that 'I just couldn't help myself' line, whether it comes to affairs or rape - it's still base and ugly. It's bowing down to your primal desires and giving in to them and be damned with the consequences - and we know what these are. I'm ashamed to say that in Australia, we have one of the "highest rates of reported sexual assault in the world, at almost 92 people per 100,000 of the population, according to the United Nations" - please go and find your own figures for your own country, and if it's zero, please let me know. We know what happens when men can't control themselves.

Julie Gillard, ex Australian prime minister

A few years ago, a woman was raped and murdered in a Melbourne Park. She's just one of many, of course, but this time the Police Commissioner was rightly criticised for saying that woman need to watch where they walk at night. Great. We're in the 21st century and we're still told to watch what we wear, where we walk, what we say. We're the ones that are meant to moderate our behaviour and please everyone. A female politician can't get up and speak without everyone judging what she wears - and yes, that's coming from men and woman alike. Because woman's bodies have always been a site of control. The thing is, it doesn't matter what we wear - we're still going to be under intense scrutiny and judgment because of it. And what we do, say and wear is our own fault, and never, ever anyone elses - apparently.

This brings me to the word 'provocative'. Are we ever inviting, ever asking for 'unwanted' attention? In the comments on one of the other responses (I can't remember which) said that the sexual dynamic between people is like a 'dance', which is true indeed - there's a pleasure in dressing a certain way to titillate and draw in the sexual advances of men (or woman, for that matter), a play that crosses cultures and time. However, it doesn't mean we are asking for 'it' - no one invites rape, abuse, judgement or assault. We could also consider what 'provocative' means, because it's very easy for men to say that whatever she was wearing was provocative, or, not understanding the situation, to **assume** that how she dressed or behaved was inviting whatever it was that the man did.
I did not ask to be raped when I was in my own house, in my own bed, under the covers, thinking that the man asleep on the couch in the other room would be 'provoked' enough by my presence to consider himself invited into my bed. Waking up to that was not pleasant, as you can imagine, and I don't want a big discussion in the comments if you don't mind, because it's well and truly over, and resolved in my mind. I use this example to illustrate that it didn't matter what I was wearing that night, that man was going to take what he wanted. As the picture to the left, and the first photo suggests, it's doesn't matter what woman wear - men see, and men take. They **apparently** can't control themselves. Now, of course it's not all men - I had a whole extended group of male friends who, upon finding this out (because I did speak out, and vocally), marched him to my door to apologise. Well intended, of course, but frightening for me, who somehow found the wherewithal to tell him how that affected me, and how fucked up he was, and that I'd never accept his apology, and that if I heard him do it to anyone else, I'd call the police immediately. He was contrite and horrified - genuinely, I believe, and years later he cried as he apologised again for what he'd done (and I still didn't say it was okay - how could it be?) I had a good outcome - many woman don't.
The next word I want to address is 'responsibility'. Earlier I said that men should control themselves, and that's true. However, I think we're culturally responsible too. I think it's what we allow to slide, and what we accept as normal, that's problematic. I think the media is very much to blame, and we should be aware of that, and speak up against it.

The image to the left may drive this point home. Are you kidding me? And there's baby shirts that say "I'm a titty man" or "Jailbait" - like it's funny. There's woman in these marketing campaigns too - why aren't they speaking out and saying this is not okay, and contributing to a culture where woman are sexually objectified and it's okay for men to judge them in this way and then blame them when they 'lose control'? Men are raised to be predatory, and woman are raised to take it. And that's no longer good enough.

I love what Collective Shout are doing to address this problem - they're directly campaigning against any advertising that diminishes woman in this way. She's not saying that it is only men who are responsible, but that everyone is. Everyone needs to take responsibility for how woman are perceived and treated, and how men behave. They campaign against big companies like Wish selling child sex dolls online, or full on lingerie models in high street shopping centre windows, the advertising of pornography in public places, plastic surgery apps for kids, and so on. All of these are incredibly damaging to our culture and it's not just men who create this world, it's woman too. Such as the woman I saw at the airport in Bali, with a t-shirt that said 'Tastes Like Honey: I'm Yours' which was *identical* to the one her three daughters wore - and they were between 10 and 13. And please don't tell me that they were asking for 'it'.
Thus, yes, men should learn to control themselves - but that probably needs to start much, much earlier with the messages they receive about relationships and woman to begin with. Like anyone else, they should be taught to control desires which has the potential to harm others as well as themselves. Woman shouldn't have to feel that their safety is at risk if they are dressing to be part of an age old play between woman and men. And everyone is responsible for changing the culture that makes us believe that it's some biological imperative that makes all this normal.


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best response. you answered this perfectly and hit on sooooooooo many of the points i was hoping to make, but you did it eloquently, directly, clearly and simply and that brings great power. well done. the best. resteemed.

Thanks for the resteem, glad you liked it. I rushed through it, so it wasn't actually as coherant and well presented as i would have liked! And I loved yours too - you nailed it too! QOTW, rocking it again.

I like the line "not all men harass women, but all women have been harassed by men". Sadly, it's on point.

Indeed. In my experience and every woman I know. There's got to be a change eventually, surely?

maybe that's is it! men need to be taught to control themselves,, by good parenting and family..

im so sorry you have had to have anything to do with rape, and the most dark and disgusting use of male power. This was a hard question, and i tried to frame it in a way that indicated none physical attention.. but i wasn't totally clear about it. so just to affirm that any unwanted physical contact is not OK under any circumstances.. and should be met with condemnation from all peers and witnesses. I am the kind of guy who would, and have, gotten in between and stopped abuse when seen in public.

i have to say that statistic
"highest rates of reported sexual assault in the world, at almost 92 people per 100,000 of the population, according to the United Nations"

is totally ridiculous! I would guestimate the real figure to be more like 60-80,000 out of 100,000.. but we will never really know.

so thank you for sharing so openly and with all your real authentic feelings.. its what makes this QOTW very special. <3

Sorry - had a night's sleep in between! I do think good parenting matters, as well as good education about emotional intelligence and a culture that raises them to be more in tune with this and what is acceptable. I heard a great talk on the radio last night which was quite timely about how we need to do away with feminism precisely because we should work toward community - no either/or, rising of female to oppress trad male energies, but a world that finds solutions together, and though it seems idealistic, we should all be doing that with everything we do and say.

Bless, I know that you meant that unwanted male attention didn't mean rape, but I guess now you realise that's where we see it going, as woman who are subject to these things. And if we allow those 'little' things, where does one draw the line? Is it okay to make a JOKE about woman, for example, being chained to the kitchen when domestic violence is one of the biggest killers of woman in the world??? Certainly Australia it is.

I do think that stat is probably less that it definitely is - and I know the stats for male victims is also much, much higher but is under reported. What a world we live in - it can be really depressing at times.

Well said. Pedophiles and rapist are a whole different breed of people and have shown to always be repeat offenders, they are simply very sick minded people and capital punishment is the only way to rid society of such people. Women have had to put up with men lording over them, sexual advances etc forever but it is worse now because we have become an amoral society. People do not know right from wrong anymore. In a time where people are waking up spiritually, we as adults need to address the issues within ourselves so that we as young parents can teach about responsibility, unconditional love, respect and controlling our thoughts to our children and via our examples. Only then can we turn society around so we can be a peaceful, loving, respectful race.

Althpugh I cannot condone capital punishment in any way at all, I totally agree that parenting plays a huge role, as does spirituality and education. X

The perpetual question, huh? Thank you for asking it again!

I am a woman and I love my body and I love feeling free and comfortable to wear whatever the fuck I want (excuse my profanity, strong feeling on this topic)....

I think it's possible to appreciate a woman (or man, or anyone) dressed as provacatively as they happen to be in a way that is non-threatening, and maybe this is the skill we need to focus on: how to appreciate the beauty and creativity and freedom of expression in a way that does not echo centuries of sexualized violence and repression. . .

We can dream, yes? <3

Upvoting and following!

Stirling, my daughter would agree with that as well. :-)

how to appreciate the beauty and creativity and freedom of expression in a way that does not echo centuries of sexualized violence and repression

loving your dream! i'm on board.

how to appreciate the beauty and creativity and freedom of expression in a way that does not echo centuries of sexualized violence and repression. . .

Oh yes!!!!! Well put. And fucks are welcomed here. 🧡

Ha... i posted my comment before seeing yours! 🧡🧡🧡🧡🧡🧡

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To answer the question in your title, I believe in individual freedom, and I believe each individual has the right to wear the clothes he/she wants.

I despise places where women are forced to wear certain clothes that cover all of their body so they aren't "punished", that is oppression.

And regarding Unwanted Attention, I think people in general should have basic education when interacting with people they don't know. It is all about having values and common sense when presenting ourselves to new people to start a new productive relationship.

So anyone that blames women for dressing "provocatively" are in my opinion, mistaken. We all should be able to dress like we prefer, and be respected for it.

I believe in individual freedom, for sure, but I do think we are less free than we may think - we are very much bound by cultural conditioning as well as the conditioning that assaults us from advertising. If we were FULLY informed about this, then sure, dress how you like - but then, you also must respect the freedoms of others, as I know some people have brought up cross-cultural sensititivities.

I approach this with trepidation; as a parent of a Son and a Daughter. I have no doubt you will not like everything I have to say, but these thoughts are on my mind.

First, If I find a male (NOT a Man, in my book) Raping a young lady; he will need to learn to walk all over again, if he is lucky! A girl should be able to safely walk down the streets in her Birthday suit if the situation warrants it. There is a flip side here, she should not, but I will discuss that later.

Now, If I find out My Son did the same, the beating will be legion; and He KNOWS that! I taught him better, and I expect better; because he is a Man, not a worm! I fully expect him to offer aid, communications, and protection for any Lady in distress! He is a cop for a large University, so sadly this need could present itself.

Now , My Daughter (who I am very Proud of too) if I found her exposing her breasts and pubic hair like the girl in the photo above; Her beating would be equally legion! Just as I expect better of My Son, I also Expect better of My Daughter!

There are two sides to this coin, and both need to be adults! I have had girls (NOT Ladies in my book) act like sluts to me! This is the part you won't like, but both sides need to behave!

Ladies should be able to dress with comfort, and be in total safety; 100% of the time! My Daughter is a real Lady, and to enforce her safety; I have taught her how to shoot. She carries a concealed 10mm. NO LADY should have to carry, but a lot do! This is a failure of our moral compass, as a civilization!

A Constant deluge of fecal matter from our entertainment industry further erodes this moral core! I saw a soap where a Rape occurred and within that same season, these two people were a couple! This was 20 years ago, it is worse now. We are watching Rape as a dating tool on our own TVs!

We can only teach our own the right way to do things, turn off the TV, and teach our own how to stay safe in an amoral world! Stay situationally aware Ladies, and Men watch to protect our Ladies!

We, as a Nation, must attach stigma to those committing Rape, and support those who are victims! Sorry this is so long, but this hurts my heart; we need to do much better! >:(

I love the fact you commented politely, even if you thought I might not like it. Open discussion is really valued, and I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you.

I agree that media/TV is far too liberal - I think it goes for shock value to sell their product. We definitely can teach our kids to be more discerning. I think there's a difference between exploring themes and violence for the sake of it.

Of course, there should be stigma attached to rape, and support victims, agreed. I hated the case in America where the father said that his son's sentence was too harsh for 'twenty minutes of fun' - for god's sake!!

I don't really condone the use of guns, but then I'm Australian and it's not part of our culture.

I'm glad you raise your children with a sense of morality, although again, a beating isn't really something I can condone, but I get your point. Perhaps it's not the fear of punishment that should drive them, but the desire to be good human beings that have pride in themselves and compassion for others.

Again, thanks so much for stopping by and commenting.

It is a figurative beating by now, My son is 6 ft 2 inches and 230 pounds; and I work to avoid bothering either one of them; HOWEVER I would help the police jail him if he was this stupid! I do not get angry often, because I am 6 ft 2 also, and 260 pounds, and I limit myself, as I expect of him.

Guns are a force multiplying tool. As with any tool they can be used well, or ill. A 12 year old girl in Arizona, was able to defend herself from two attackers, with a shotgun her Father had taught her how to use! One of the attackers had a 45 ACP he had killed a full grown Man for just days before. IF THAT MAN, had been competent with his own firearm, this girl would not have been put at risk.

The last time we served the Homeless, we had a 60 year old man ask an 11 year old server for a date! I TOLD HIM TO LEAVE, He pulled a Samarai sword; I pulled a 9mm semi-automatic (that he did not even see) and again ordered him to leave, NOW! He decided that his toy knife didn't scare me, and left. I just slipped the pistol back into my pocket, and no one else even knew.

There are Lines that are NEVER acceptable to cross! Real MEN musty step in and stop this feces, and step on the worms as necessary! In three + years of feeding the homeless, I have never ordered anyone to leave unfed! I thank GOD I did not have to engage this fool (But I did move to clear my field of fire)! But to protect that sweet granddaughter of Ruby's; I would have shot him dead! That is the only time I have pulled a pistol from a holster in two decades of carry. THAT is the proper use of a force multiplier, in a defensive role. I find that good people carrying defensive firearms, actually reduces violence, significantly.

Be Blessed, and stay situationally aware, and safe.

Thanks - I think you guys definitely live in a very different world to ours. Thank god you hadn't had to use it prior to them.

Violence is sadly universal. I just choose to react directly, and not call a cop! The people I am responsible for, will be safe on My watch! Everywhere countries have forced gun control, violence runs rampant, because those willing to ignore the Law, KNOW that their victims are unarmed! The lions share of violence here, is in places with the strictest gun laws...SMH! :(

ALL VIOLENCE must be unacceptable,or we will never stop it! >:(

I'm so interested in what you have to say, because it's so different to here. Australians aren't immune to violence of course, but it's certainly not RAMPANT and our last big massacre was years ago, where our PM had a gun amnesty and got rid of guns. It has worked for us thus far, and can't see that changing. Maybe we are just lucky. I see American school shooting and wonder why the hell don't they regulate more - I can see the argument for guns, but not as it stands.

I dont want to argue with you about guns at all. I find it interesting. But I did want to say that guns have never been the answer here, and it thankfully works for our country.

Sadly most of thd gun violence is from those wanting to regulate gun violence. The shooting in Florida took place where there were two armed guards. One stayed outsidd to be safe while the other one locked himself in a closet! These are the worms I was talking about.

The violence problem is caused by people who believe they have the right to offensively hurt others. If they don't use a gun, they would use something else. It is a moral breakdown problem.

Curious, how would the situation with the sword be handled down under? :)

With vegemite ;)

Nah... well, we wouldn't have the sword problem, or the cops would come in, or there would be a few dead and injured, but at least not a crazy shoot out.

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I am glad I live in a place where I don't worry about guns or swords.

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