50/50 and then some

in #thoughts6 years ago (edited)

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone just knew what was best for the future of the community and did that? Wouldn't it be better if that same action was also what was best for the individuals too? Yeah, it isn't going to happen, there is no perfect model. I always feel weird talking about money/value even though it is a core part of Steem and has to be, otherwise we can all just post for free on Facebook or, not post at all and get on with our lives in the breathing world.

One thing that has been discussed for about as long as I can remember here (my first day) is 50% curation rewards, linear/superlinear voting and incentivized flagging. Here is a post by @kevinwong covering these three things with continued conversation in the comments section. Go have a read if you dare and see what engagement and people who care about the platform actually look like.

Honestly, I am far too limited technically to look at the mechanics of the linear/super linear or the incentivizing of downvotes aspects but, the 50/50 curation I do have some experience with. Recently I signed up to smoke.io (Steem clone) that has 50% curation. I didn't start with nothing though, I have held smoke for over a year now and traded here and there and have enough smoke to be a little Orca. What this means is that as far as the platform goes, my vote is pretty decent.

Now as you know, I spend a great deal of time on Steem which means, I don't really have time to post over on Smoke but, I do have time to go over have a read and throw some votes. The 50% return means that I am able to never post but still increase my returns at a rate similar to those I vote on but, not at the same percentage of growth. What I mean by this is that if I have 50k smoke and my vote is worth 10 smoke, getting 50% equals 5 smoke.

This is not an enormous amount but, for someone that only has 50 Smoke currently, it is 10% return for them. If we could both sell immediately, we would both sell at the same price and value, the rich getting richer is not the case once you take away the starting point. If we look at this over the space of 100 votes, I would get 500 smoke, they would get 500 smoke and we would both be able to power up and have that additional 500 smoke vested draw on the pool.

Over 1000 Votes, I would have grown by 5000 Smoke Power to 55k they would be a Smoke Dolphin with 5000 smoke power. Percentage wise I would have gained 10%, they who started at 50 smoke would have grown 10,000%. But again, if we both sell our gains, we have the same amount. Now, I might support 10 creators and each will have 500 instead but, they will still all have the same potential to draw from the pool as my own increase. Unless they sell.

Currently on Steem the content creator gets a guaranteed 75% of the value and greedy or not, this just isn't enough to compete for manual curation and instead many SP holders will sell their votes in the various ways that @kevinwong identifies as vote farming:

  • Self-voting
  • Vote-selling
  • Vote-exchanging

This means that those who maximize their potential earning value put zero into curation as they take 100% out or close enough to.

Now, I am a content creator on Steem, I have earned every Steem I have through content creation (and a little trading) and I am pretty well supported for most likely several reasons. Going to a 50% curation means that I am likely to lose some posting value (things remaining equal) as it might be unlikely that people will vote at a higher percentage but, I am also more likely to make up for some of that through curation returns since I myself give out about 75% of the earning potential of the stake I control to the community. I have always recommended to people that it should be closer to 50/50 but with so few manual curators, I feel obligated to put more in and have been doing so this way for the last 1.5 years or so. Before that I didn't self vote much at all so it was close to 100% to the community but my vote wasn't worth as much.

But, although this would be a great benefit and draw some curators back from the vote selling, in and of itself it isn't enough because it still doesn't tie the vote to any need for quality and despite what some believe, quality matters for the long term view of the platform, at least to some degree. This is why the flags should be incentivized to some degree because then the community will be able to return what it considers misused votes on useless content back into the pool for redistribution.

That means that people can vote on crap but, they may have their vote nullified and it doesn't necessarily cost the flagger to do so. This makes flagging more of an option and bought votes on nonsense much more risky, especially considering the 50% curation return factor. The slightly superlinear model affects this too but I am not clever enough to understand that yet.

One of the arguments of content creators on the platform is that 50% curation is costing them but this isn't actually true. I always wonder, what if you didn't know? What if when you entered into the platform for the first time someone like @blocktrades or @thejohalfiles voted on your post at 50 dollars, would you be happy? Damn straight. The feeling of loss really comes when the payout value says they voted 100 dollars but took 50 back, doesn't it?

There was no loss, there was 50 dollars gain but come payout time, that number is smaller than it was just a moment ago and the person that took it from you has so much already. Do you ever question what these accounts have done to have those amounts? Do you know what they do in the real world, should it matter? If this was hidden from view, no one would see it as a loss.

Of course, this is a transparent blockchain but no one seems to worry about the banks taking 5% interest on a house loan for 25 years. On a 100,000 dollar loan the final cost is 173,000. There is a loan risk though isn't there? Same as there is a risk to hold Steem Power and a massive risk of holding a lot of Steem Power. It isn't in a whale's best interest to maximize their coins if the coins are going to continually go down in value.

The idea of a sense of loss is not a good argument as until it is in the wallet, it isn't yours. There is also the idea of what the content is deemed to be worth. If there is a painting for sale and the artist wants 1000 dollars for it and no one is willing to pay, the piece isn't worth 1000 dollars. By some stroke of luck however, a fine art collector might randomly fall in love with the piece and pay 100,000 dollars for it. What happens to the value of the artist's other pieces? Most likely, they too will attract larger values also if other collectors are now aware of the newly discovered artist. Social proof.

Currently, social proof is very hard to come by on Steem because so much of the stake is not determined through the community at all but rather through the artists buying votes. This means that they likely remain undiscovered for eternity and as soon as they stop buying, they are back into obscurity. I can't and won't speak for other accounts but my own has got to where it is through social proof on a mixture of content quality, range, community value, interaction and likely that I also reward comments but, those who are commenting hoping for 10 cents aren't the ones with large votes now are they? The received comment voting is part of the distribution mechanism I employ (about 15% of all my voting power goes to comments) in the hope that some of them invest into their future. Very few do when I check.

People forget that there is a risk to hold Steem in Steem Power but it is a memory of convenience as when it comes to themselves powering up, it is too risky as after all, they have things to buy and a hard life to live. I am not diminishing people's life experiences but, the assumption that having a large Steem wallet means living it up in the real world is not a great one to make as some people like myself among several others I know are, taking the risk despite the real world struggles.

Should I not, should I maximize also and leave it up to others? There is a responsibility component to Steem and, we all have it even if we don't take it. Shouldn't it be shared, or is it only for those with Steem Power to bear the burden of responsibility as after all, they are so rich? or is that we? Am I one of them now? I find it a little bit hilarious that holding magic internet money that has taken me literally several thousand hours to earn through a great deal of work and I have never used makes me, privileged. Ridiculous.

We are nowhere near the sweet spot where those with stake are incentivized enough to distribute the pool to anyone other than themselves unless they are feeling altruistic. And that is a pipe dream to expect an entire community to be altruistic. There has to be return of some kind for those who are taking the risk in holding Steem and distributing the pool to others and it has to be at more layers than Steem coin collection itself. The 50% curation balances that part at least but the next point is going to be, how to get the community to actually value quality content that adds value to the blockchain and people who are willing to continually stake themselves in and take a risk on the community's future and development.

Over at Smoke.io there are a lot of shitposts from people who are there for the coins. I can guarantee that while those that care about the future of that platform are powering up, the extractors will powerdown and sell as soon as possible. Some people will never invest into their future let alone that of a community because they are the eternal instant gratifiers who will forever struggle no matter how much opportunity comes there way. The same thing happened on Steem where people who have outstripped my earning by several times complain about a lack of votes while they have close to zero Steem left in their wallets. People want support from the community but don't want to give support to the community.

Somewhere in this mess there is a point of balance but it isn't going to happen by expecting people not to be human and maximize because for the most part, that is what we do.

I am tired, have a massive tax bill I have to figure out, a sick kid that keeps waking up and - this is just a really long rant to get some thoughts out but, maybe there is something in here that provokes a thought or two. Perhaps you could write a post on it and potentially earn some Steem through it. No votes are guaranteed though. I really hope this community can get itself together one day but expectations need to shift somewhat.

Taraz
[ a Steem original ]

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And that is a pipe dream to expect an entire community to be altruistic.

Personally I think it would take a very small group with combined power of a few million SP to bring the entire platform to heel. This is only true of course of they follow a righteous path and convince more users to join along the way.

Like you, I also personally responded to @kevinwong's post recently. It's a bit long but I would really appreciate it if you read it.

Steem Problems Can't Get Fixed By Hard Forks

I was just reading it :)

And yes, it doesn't take much to bring them to heel but that small group needs stake and consensus (like you pointed out) but it is very unlikely due to the nature of the stakeholders here for the most part. The initial distribution and how it was distributed on from there is causing a great deal of the problems today.

If I won the lottery... :D

The initial distribution is a problem, but we need Steemit Inc's development more than we need them to decentralize the platform. Whenever that changes we can fork the platform and redistribute their stake, if it comes to that.

We can assume that hundreds of SMTs will be on the platform by then, so it might just be smarter to let the distribution problem slide and create an SMT that patches the problem.

  1. Identify the trustworthy users on Steem (or just the abusers)
  2. Fork Steem coins onto an SMT
  3. Redistribute all the coins of the SMT to trusted individuals. (or away from abusers)

Now we have a platform where all the coins are 100% to people we trust. Proof-of-brain can easily be achieved in this scenario. The hard part is identifying trustworthy people in the first place that aren't going to become corrupt with power on the new platform.

Yep, I would say that you are right with this but then:

The hard part is identifying trustworthy people in the first place that aren't going to become corrupt with power on the new platform.

Always the problem.

Recently, my content generated roughly 50SP for curators over the span of seven days. I average about 1 post per day. So I lost 50SP to curators, which is fine with me, I admire the system, but I made nearly 50SP in curation rewards because I manually vote. That basically means I'm getting the full value of my content, sometimes.

If more were given an incentive to vote, we'd see more votes on our work. Higher rewards but we'd lose 50%, but those who were smart and powered up could easily get that back through curation rewards, like I did. This creates a positive feedback loop, if people actually knew about it. 50/50 sounds like a loss but in reality, if you put it the time and effort, it could mean more.

absolutely. What people forget is that if the 50% return is going to manual curators, those that power up have increased value while those who rape the system and sell have decreasing value. If people would have put some of their earnings into SP, when prices increase their vote value will outstrip what they sold the Steem for now but, everyone has to live off all of their Steem.

I want people who read and vote on my content to benefit from reading and voting on my content in the hope that they will come back and read and vote on my content again someday. I don't care what people say, quality and consistency will always matter in the long-term view.

I admire the curation reward system. Way back in the day Napster got in trouble and Metallica made headlines. People wanted entertainment for free, and artists thought it wasn't fair they should have to work for nothing. Here, people get paid to enjoy free content. Do you think those people back then thought they would ever see a world where they'd get paid to download their mp3 files? They would have laughed. Well, here we are, and since most people seem to forget history, many do not realize how profound and revolutionary this platform truly is.

And of course a content producer has to work and be consistent. We all know what happens to those one hit wonders.

Well, here we are, and since most people seem to forget history, many do not realize how profound and revolutionary this platform truly is.

Most have no idea about what went on. Napster? Most here still had single digit ages at that point. People expect revolutions to be swift and painless, except those who have lived through them so the profundity of this system is lost to entitlement and expectation. People create unnecessary drama here.

I wonder how many people these days could truly be professional independent artists running from gallery to gallery facing rejections and then being proud of hanging their work in the local cafe?

Those rejections sting. That was me on Jasper Ave then rounding the corner onto 124th in Edmonton. I asked and one incident I'll never forget. I'm inside a gallery, not too fancy, but things were pricey. I asked if she'd be interested in digital art. She scowled and said, "If I want to buy a poster, I can to to Walmart and pick one up for 99 cents." I walked for over two hours all the way home, pissed off at the entire world, because I simply couldn't get my foot inside the door, anywhere. If some folks here think people are elitist and stick to their own, try the real world. Hundred times worse. Thanks for triggering a memory! That walk changed my life.

My dad was an artist from a what was a war torn country at the time and worked his ass off from a child to get to somewhere he deemed better. I can't say I have an easy life but, I also don't fully understand how bad things could actually be.

One thing is for certain, I can't keep running this way forever.

The feeling of loss really comes when the payout value says they voted 100 dollars but took 50 back, doesn't it?

This is one of the reasons I wish that the payout in the interface reflected author rewards. Right now, it reflects the post's total projected rewards, from which both curation and beneficiary rewards will be deducted. After HF20, this is now even more of an issue, since the curation split is effectively fixed at 25%.

Why not do this deduction up front, so people know what to expect? I am willing to bet we would hear a lot less bitching. We're not trying to hide anything either. We can still show the total amount and breakdown in the dropdown, but the green number there under the post should reflect what the author will actually receive.

We shouldn't be asking much of Steemit.com.

These are things that literally any frontend can change.

I would ask Busy.org or Steempeak first.

If the change takes well all the other frontends will make the same alterations.

Ah, well, I wouldn't be asking anything of them but permission to merge. This is a change I'd be comfortable making to Condenser myself. I would actually be surprised if I were the first person to think of this. Someone has probably already conceived and implemented this idea separately; the question is if TPTB would accept it or not.

The reality is that most people are still using Steemit and it is still, for better or worse, the main gateway to the platform. I certainly support the development of and migration to alternative gateways, and I'd be happy to see this change made in those places too, but for me it is important to make the change where it will have the biggest impact; that place is Steemit.

I think that in time Steemit itself will kill steemit.com, perhaps with @ned's new front end. This way they can bring in a raft of better options and essentially clean slate it and possibly tie some new rules into it through an SMT.

I would say, Steemit.com is doomed unless they sell it off and it gets revamped fully.

That is a bold prediction, @tarazkp. I am intrigued. I actually hadn't considered the possibility.

If they do that, someone will be hosting "Steemit Classic" somewhere, and if they don't, I will. I have tried the other interfaces and I just don't like them. Condenser is my jam.

Don't listen to me about anything UI/UX though. Never, ever trust a developer's taste with these sorts of things.

That is a bold prediction, @tarazkp. I am intrigued. I actually hadn't considered the possibility.

I am a bold predictor and shirker of responsibility. If only the blockchain wasn't immutable ;)

If they do that, someone will be hosting "Steemit Classic" somewhere, and if they don't, I will.

Will it have IRC?

Never, ever trust a developer's taste with these sorts of things.

Monkeys, the lot of them :P

Yep. there is actually no need for it to have ever been put there at all and many people coming in do not understand curation. Many are here for months and don't.

the rich getting richer is not the case once you take away the starting point.

That's literally the first half of the phrase. "The rich." You don't get to just take away the starting point.

I'm really disappointed to see otherwise-intelligent people like you and Meno taking seriously Kevin's latest attempt to enrich himself at the expense of others. Because that's 100% of what this proposal is. It takes rewards away from new users and gives them to Kevin.

Do you really think we're doing such a wonderful job of onboarding and retention that we can afford that?

I came in with nothing too remember and I have sat here working 12 hours a day for near on two years now without taking a dollar of value for myself to be 'rich'. There is a cost isn't there? There is a risk associated with locking up Steem whether it was bought at 7 dollars or 7 cents. I don't come from a privileged position, I don't come from money, I am drowning in debt and still manage to give back to the community without code forcing me to but, here we are.

Onboarding and retention? to what? no votes unless you buy them?

You think this is worth 485 from the pool?

https://steemit.com/steem/@lasseehlers/the-crypto-currency-space-in-short-middle-and-longterm

265 on this photo?

https://steemit.com/landscapephotography/@majes.tytyty/no-changes-sea-changes-malaysian-borneo-landscape-photography

Is that driving retention? Is this how new users get rewarded? Is that what this platform needs? I have been here almost 2 years day and night and I have never had a post break 200, even at the height of the crypto bubble with posts that a few whales supported, posts that did something. Is it lack of quality, consistency, effort? To get those kinds of values is a 70 hours work and 25 posts. What hope does a new account have?

There is an expectation problem isn't there. Not many can afford the bidbots but that is where 30% of the value goes to 0.6 % of the posts. Distribution?

SMTs might change things but who knows. RC credits might help. But if curation is important here and no one is curating, something has to change to encourage actual curation doesn't it?

I have spoken about 50/50 for somewhere over a year now, before I knew who Kevin was. Whether it is the answer or not, it doesn't really matter, what has been happening for far too long is not the answer.

There are a lot of smart people here. You'd think things would be different wouldn't you? Yet here we are, struggling with what should be simple.

Shit! that danish guy has paid around $435.00 on a bunch of bidbots for that post.

  • 35.000 STEEM to boomerang.
  • 55.000 STEEM to therising.
  • 140.000 STEEM to appreciator.
  • 70.000 STEEM to rocky1.
  • 70.000 STEEM to upme.
  • 65.000 SBD to buildawhale.
  • And 140.000 STEEM to smartsteem that graciously was refunded.

However, he still managed to get 389 upvotes from a bunch of 'great curators' and only 3 downvotes to still be able to raise the relative value of his post on trending page till the mark of $482.96.

Yeah! there gonna be something very succulent to taste on steemit when there are now so many refined chefs in charge of the kitchen. Spicing it with RCs Manas or without. }:)

Not just expectations, the general mindset regarding this place perhaps. The future of steem bothers me more than ever, and the declining user numbers are not helping.

I read the post by Wong and agreed with a great deal of the stuff I understood concerning changes that should be made; even then there are no guarantees to what the future holds for steem

and the declining user numbers are not helping.

Don't worry about this yet.

Human nature sometimes disables us for making the best decisions for a community instead of oneself. While it may be instinct, the truth is that game theory states that one will always try to optimize earnings in any economic model. I read from @meno (I think) today that we should not be focusing on our piece of the pie but instead think how we make the whole pie bigger so that inherently our piece is bigger. Whether that be through curations or flags, that should be the focus and not the "efficient way" to earn even though sometimes we all come back to thinking that way.

The problem is it is still going to concentrate resources isn't it? Let's say we need quality content to attract votes, investment and onboarding. How many are able to compete for the affections of large votes? There is still going to be a concentration and pooling of resources t certain points, distribution can never be even as there is differences in ability as well as other variables.

Should the rich in talent be forced to stay poor? Should I just shitpost instead of putting effort in and buy votes? I still would like to think that one day people will vote on my work because they find value in it.

What makes you tube valuable is a very narrow selection of content as the largest portion never gets viewed at all. If we are going to grow this platform's value, the content it contains has to be valuable for an audience to view. Currently, it is not and instead of rewarding that which is, there is more incentive to sell votes to reward crap. It is untenable.

True but different from YT, the token value is retained and those that have large stakes will look to sell out (power down) as the value increases and the pie gets bigger. However, small accounts will get more of the distribution and grow to balance the scale with the stakes of the larger holders. The smaller accounts will determine more value through the quantity of votes and not the weight which is why projects like 1UP and @steem-ua are great for the ecosystem.

Yes, I agree with that and that will happen but it takes a long time to get that kind of distribution going unless there is a massive amount of stake behind something like UA which is unlikely at this point.

Great post as always, as you mention is a risk to always power up and a lot of people are not willing to give but only take!

They are very good reflections friend @tarazkp. I have only nine months publishing in steemit and I am still familiar with the full potential of the platform. I will take into account the concepts you have issued here and I hope to benefit from it. Receive my affections

Thank you my friend. really the times that I come to your publications, I always learn something new and this knowledge is very important here in STEEMIT

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