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RE: Self-voting user list since HF19 - PART 3 (potential comment abuse)

in #steemit4 years ago

We will see some more names in the next few days. People are buying Steem Power delegation and there is no other way to use this except for upvoting their own posts and comments. Obviously, peeps want a higher return on their investment.

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There is at least one other way to use it, to vote on others :)

Higher return on investment will be short lived, the more funds you withhold from content creators, the more the STEEM price will drop so then you more tokens of something that's worth less, that doesn't accomplish anything.

Well, the people of this planet use to adopt short term tactics rather than going for long run. I have seen many whales who are self voting, could be seen from your report as well.

Short term gain leads to long term loss. I am absolutely horrified at seeing some of the names on this list. Those who don't defect in this Prisoner's Dilemma are clearly few and far between. There is no way that it will be changed from being a prisoner's dilemma, because the biggest stakeholders are, albeit more subtly, milking all the incoming investors too.

Sooner or later the rest of the world is going to learn that money goes one way into Steem. Into the hands of exploiters who mean to suck out every last bit from every idiot that comes along and tries to invest money to promote good content.

You really have to be an idiot. Very clever of @dan to make a system that so advantages parasites like himself. Now they are the majority and it's only a matter of time before nobody will throw their money down this toilet.

And it's never going to change while @smooth and @dan are such large stakeholders. They will just unvote any witness who campaigns to have this system changed.

No doubt this is a work of a genius, and I respect that genius, if not the necessarily the morality, depending on which way it goes.

To me, if this system isn't changed soon though, it demonstrates that it is a Ponzi Scheme. It's really disappointing to have just discovered something so promising, only to realise it's possibly not what is seems!

I hold onto the hope that something changes in the right direction to demonstrate our fear is wrong. I realise you're convinced already.

I think the first steps would be, along the lines you've proposed:

  1. To increase the power-down period again.Perhaps gradually extending it by one week every month (set in software in the next hard-fork).

  2. Prevent (or mandate) witness self-voting

  3. Prevent (or mandate) direct self-voting on comments and posts

  4. Perhaps some indirect self-voting could be discovered through tools, and somehow become a 'proof of work', useful mining operation.

Agreed 100% I am quite sure it is a ponzi scheme. The longer the big names in the top 19 witnesses hold out on refusing to address this issue, the more guilty they look. I laid out the scheme pretty clearly as to how there has never been any real power for anyone except the in-crowd over sufficient control to determine hard fork vetos, or not. Between @dan, @smooth, @abit, and a couple of others, there is sufficiennt voting power to pin at least 14 witnesses to the top 19, which basically means they control what little vestige of democracy there is.

Never mind the fact that steemit arbitrarily defines such changes as giving minnows a 25% vote capability (which is possible even with bandwidth limits), or even considering banning direct self voting, as 'feature requests' that repeating such offence (even if on different topics) will get you banned from the github, and that you must 'post it here in the forum' where, wouldn't you know it, anyone with any amount of voting power that could propel it to the trending page, where supposedly stinc might start to consider it, except they merely have to pointedly ignore such posts and nobody ever sees it and by magic, their power continues unabated.

It's the most gratuitously fake corporate democracy ever. The shares were issued to the inner circle at the beginning, and they have used their excessive share as a group to lock everyone else out. I am pretty sure that if this was a regulated asset (steem power), that the way these people acquired such a humongous share would be 'insider trading' because insiders, members or employees or other close associates, are not allowed to buy the shares until sufficient advertising has been made to offer shares to the public.

Make no mistake, steem power is a share. It even says so in the whitepaper, indirectly, right near the top, when it talks about reddit talking about giving users shares and this giving thtem power in the system.

Now that the SEC has ruled on the subject, I think that they should be informed that 250 million dollars worth of market cap included a closed early share issuance in digital form, that constitutes insider trading, and is being used to shut out competition within thte corporate democratic system and milk the small shareholders of their assets.

I have not either mentioned that the actual infrastructure has a built-in ticking timebomb in that eventually, the servers will not be able to complete a replay and the site will cease to work...

But people think I am exaggerating in all these things. How could I possibly be so sure about this? Go look up the limitations of graph database systems, for a start, and search for 'large binary blobs' in connection with this. Binary, or UTF-8, it really makes no difference. Large Blobs. Eventually it causes this type of database to become non-functional because of the explosion of indexes and index sizes. I wouldn't even be surprised if Graphene has a hard coded limit of 256Gb shared memory (if we are lucky, if it's 128Gb, it will exceed its own memory addressing capacity withtin 6 months).

I love reading your analysis, even though I'm unsure what to think.

I don't know enough about these systems to have an informed opinion on this, but do you think that this is Dan's warm-up act then, and before it technically exhausts itself, he will bring it down, and transition to EOS? Does EOS also have these technical problems, or have they been addressed in some way?

I do find it hard to imagine that the blockchain couldn't be somehow truncated (so a complete replay isn't necessary), and earlier stuff archived in some way, whilst the new continues. I know very little about blockchains though, and maybe I fundamentally don't understand the situation.

I do wonder why you worked at being a witness if you knew of the inevitable demise of the infrastructure, or did you learn that later?

Since Graphene is open source, would it not be fairly easy to determine to what shared memory limit is, if that's important?

snort yeah, I don't think Dan gives a flying fuck about what mess he left behind, nor do I think that his new system gives any mind to fixing it, I am pretty sure it's just another racket that he thinks he can get away with.

Yes, I learned and watched the process of decay during the 6 months I was working on and off with steemd. For every improvement, there has been a greater overall decline. The only way the technical problems won't become even bigger than the game mechanics problems, is if they spend at least triple their current budget on development.

Yes, I would think it would not be hard to discover. The thing you need to look for is the size of the shared_memory address byte size. That will tell you how big it gets before it runs out of actual addressing capability.

Not happy to read that. If it is a Ponzi Scheme I should withdraw all my assets immediately and stop posting here. Not sure if I want to do that though. :(

I'm powering down, and getting whan I earn back out as quickly as I can. I even had made the mistake about 6 weeks ago, of putting liquid steem (1235) back into SP after being delayed 19 days by Poloniex.

I'm continuing to post and comment and vote here, as long as here still exists, but I'm no longer in any delusion about the sustainability of this platform, and I feel a strong imperative to quickly build a basic replacement that will provide for the needs we have all acquired by becoming accustomed to using this platform.

Hopefully within 6 weeks there will be a working forum, rewards system, and an initially non-rewarded base of servers running the software, and a basic web interface for the discussion and voting system parts.

I will be getting on the task within the next 24 hours. I don't think I can make any valid excuse not to get going on it now, even this sleep problem, I have to fix it right away. The same with the allergy problem I am having, which is probably connected. This allergic dermatitis I have at the moment is especially irritating.

I don't know what to say. It just pops the biggest bubble of hope in my life and I feel like I am drowning. Steemit was my last resort.

A better idea would be to just start with increasing incentive to vote on others and get this UI improved A LOT.

Increasing the power-down period should provide that incentive.

Have you written about the UI changes that you think would help?

A little here and there, but it's mostly a waste of time. They don't seem to care about the UI at all (yet).

I don't think the power-down period has to change. It's the least problematic.

I can understand that to be honest. The blockchain logic is where the incentive structure needs to be IMO. Especially once Steem has community namespaces and differential moderation, which is due to happen this quarter.

They? The project is open source, you can go to the dev channel and if you have ideas or code changes you can definitely get the attention of developers and what is required to implement them. The blockchain can be forked as well, you can distribute the coin, you can write the UI, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing just that. After all competition is healthy.

Very good point. That's why the system must be adjusted.

The simplest way I see is to have an account which relies on a database of current and past abuse determined directly from the blockchain, and which resolves within the pay period to neutralize as much of the abuse as possible, and which people would delegate power to. The account wouldn't earn anything, it wouldn't post, but who's activities will have to be actively maintained through another mode like discord or a forum. I don't see it as a major problem thought. I don't see how the system can be adjusted either, but it clearly affects user retention and engagement.

Interesting, but why would people delegate to it? It seems that would cause just the same resentment and division between 'community members' who delegate for the good of the platform, and those who don't out of self-interest, figuring they can better use their SP for profit.

The system can be change to have any agreed restrictions on the blockchain logic I guess, but only where there's a will.

People that aren't exclusively interested in making a profit would delegate because they see the long term benefits of addressing this with the mechanism that is in place for these issues.

The system can be changed, that is not the point. The point is how.

There is not enough SP in the hands of people who would support it, to achieve what, ironically, @smooth and @abit did with "The Experiment", on this issue. To be precise, they are the very core target we would probably be dealing with. I'm starting to see why berniesanders has been working hard to raise the collective share of the minnows to a level where as a group, they can start to fight back against this monopoly, but, honestly, if you ask me, it's a hopeless cause.

I haven't been around long enough to know about 'The Experiment', I'd need to read about it.

@abit and @smooth set up a bot to automatically downvote whale votes, to show what happened to the rewards pool and especially minnow rewards. It was a resounding success.

Pretty ironic that even with figures like 50% of comment rewards going to upvotes that both of these two are major objects of resistance against a rule change of any kind.

wouldn't you have to sell them to drop the price?

It's not only about direct loss of value. It's also about losing out on potential new investors because users are unhappy about the platform in it's current state.

Ironically, it's a counter-aragument by the self-voting crowd, that not having self voting would repel investment. It's patent nonsense, because this is precisely what would condemn Steem as an antisocial, basically, ponzi scheme, dressed up as something else.

Nice jackass. Stop asking stupid questions you little bitch.

You're looking for some male attention.... I'm not surprised, your meds seemed like they were working last week did you stop taking them or what?

I see you're powering down?! What happened?! Did your food stamps run out, or you need some extra cash for your section 8 housing? Hang in there sweetie. Just because you're an idiot, doesn't mean you people don't like you. In your case it does, but not for others.

Yeah I need extra cash for section 8 housing that the government would cover, and if I was on food stamps the only way that could apply would be if I was making to much money to be eligible. Before I said you were looking for male attention and now you're calling me sweetie? You aren't very good at this.
If you wanted to know the real reason I am powering down read this very articulate post I found. I never knew about these celebrity bloggers and money falling out of the sky very undervalued post imo.
https://steemit.com/steem/@queeneleanor/i-stopped-my-power-down

Oh and speaking of section 8 are these blue concrete floors in your living room covered by an area rug that looks like a cut out section of carpet?
https://steemit.com/dog/@queeneleanor/happy-4th-everyone-big-plans

Cya in a few days kiddo going on vacation with my girlfriend who's not a canine.

Lol. Sure you are. And yes I have seen many pictures of you. You'd be surprised what you can find out about someone these days if you know how

If you know how lol... Now you have an above average ability to dox... Okay ill bite, If you can post just one of these many pictures you have of me ill give you $20. If you can tell me my real name ill give you $10.

Lmfao/lol/rofl. You're so fucking funny. You came up with that all by yourself?! 👏🏼

Anyone with any sense knows that that people spending shit loads of money to buy or hire SP are not going to use that to vote for other people. That's the height of naivety. Of course they're going to use it to upvote themselves. Most of those people are An-caps, not communists.

Yup, we can't really blame the users of a flawed system. If the system allows it, people will do it :)

Yes very true. However Steemit is not a country, nor does it have a government in that sense, so the AnCap ideals as applied to state (or indeed anti-state) politics often seem to me to be misdirected. Steemit is more like a company which has very convoluted rules for distributing newly issued shares (SP) and operates a currency (STEEM / SBD).

We all, as shareholders, have some limited (extremely limited as @elfspice as pointed out) influence to change the arbitrary rules of new share issuance for the better long term value of the project as a whole. In real life companies, those shareholders looking for a quick payday at the expense of the project or those who take advantage of the other shareholders good will (willing to vote for others in this context) are similarly challenged. I am glad to say it is happening here too.

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