Details on Proposed Comment Reward Curve

in steem •  2 years ago

In preparation for the next hard fork our team has been working on an alternative to the N^2 reward curve that results in the top posts making significantly more than everyone else.

The equations to the right show the various candidate functions for determining the rewards. They have been graphed below with red representing the current curve, pink representing the n log(n) curve and blue representing the n curve.

We found it was easier to understand these curves by taking the derivative, which is what we graphed.

Ideal Curve

In a world with honest people who don't vote on themselves to get "free money for nothing", a simple linear curve, aka n would produce a 1 share 1 vote proportional payout. This is the blue line and shows the ideal situation.

Realistic Curve

Unfortunately, we live in a world where people will attempt to game the system by voting for themselves. If everyone voted for themselves then the result would be simple interest payments and have no economic impact. We believe that groups are more honest in aggregate than individuals. We also believe that whales (accounts with over $500K Steem Power) have more to lose and are easier to police than the multitude of smaller accounts.

The green line, n^2 / (1 + n), shows a blend between n^2 and n where for small numbers of votes the reward schedule is closer to n^2 and for larger values it approaches n.

With these curves, any single whale in the top 20 will have the power to vote with n weight such that the reward is 75% linear. If two or more of the top 20 whales concur the the final result is over 90% linear. For all content on the top of steemit.com today the reward payout would be 99% linear under this curve.

n log(n) Alternative

In the past we suggested something closer to n log(n), but as you can see from the graph, it takes longer to reach a linear approximation and then it overshoots and remains biased toward concentration of votes.

Deployment Proposal

We propose to role out the new curve for the comments only because comments do not have curation rewards in the next release. If it is successful for comments, then we will have to derive a new curation reward equation based upon this curve before we can adopt this curve to top level posts.

All equations shown are normalized by removing constants we will scale by.

Please give your feedback and let us know what you think.

Authors get paid when people like you upvote their post.
If you enjoyed what you read here, create your account today and start earning FREE STEEM!
Sort Order:  

Details on Proposed Comment Reward Curve

What about the idea that comments do not need their own reward pool in the first place? Is this simply not open for debate? The sentiment has been shifting about this topic over the last few weeks.

I vote no on a separate pool for a variety of reasons.

  1. If the argument is that it will increase engagement, then I don't believe that's necessarily true. It'll be hard to increase engagement on posts via comments when there aren't many humans actually reading the posts in the first place.

  2. These rewards will take a large percentage away from current posting and curation rewards (which is still the plan, as far as I know), to the tune of 38%. Curation rewards are only paying out about 12% of the pool right now. A further 38% cut will bring that down to around 7.5%. How exactly does this incentivize users to curate better and not simply lead to more automation and "sure bets" from such automation?

  3. Having a separate rewards pool for comments adds another layer of complexity to an already complex system. New users already have a steep learning curve when using this platform. How exactly does this fit in with Steemit Inc.'s notion of KISS, which was stressed in the road map announcement?

  4. Having a separate pool for comments - which are already not read much, due to the parent posts not being read much, overall - will likely invite more spam and potential abuse, since they're not even monitored by the user base as much as parent posts are.

If the plan is to increase engagement, perhaps the focus should be on growing the active user base beyond the ~800 daily authors and a couple of thousand active accounts, which include a large amount of alt accounts, automated voting accounts, and bots.

Basically, the problem isn't a lack of comment rewards. The problem is the lack of a large enough, active, human user base to make the platform function as intended. Instead of creating a separate pool for comments, why not treat blog posts and comments the same? Same curves, same curation rewards, same time frames for voting. Wouldn't that make more sense and actually adhere to the KISS principle?

·

I strongly disagree.

With a comment reward pool, steemit can become attractive to a much more broad community, extending out from "bloggers" to readers and consumers who can also make money just from adding commentary.

·
·

With a comment reward pool, steemit can become attractive to a much more broad community, extending out from "bloggers" to readers and consumers who can also make money just from adding commentary.

They can do that now, without a separate pool. And flattening the rewards curve on blog posts will invariably free up more rewards for comments, so that proposal alone could lead to better comment distribution. If comments and blog posts were treated the same way, that would also help the situation.

Ultimately though, a comment pool will not attract users if nobody knows about it...or the website itself. Unless there is going to be a marketing campaign to accompany these changes, they won't matter much. Steemit has a lack of active human users and an apparent lack of interested potential users. How does this get addressed and resolved by simply throwing a larger share of rewards at comments?

Never mind the fact that your "strong disagreement" didn't actually address any of the potential issues I raised. With what do you "strongly disagree?"

Basically, this is just the same wishful thinking that everyone seems to buy into with each new proposal. How, precisely, will a comment rewards pool grow the user base, given what we've seen so far with the user base, development/changes, and the marketing of the platform since it began? And how will the reduction in posting and curation rewards negatively impact everything else? Why do people only look at the potential good (which is largely unproven) and completely ignore the likely bad (which we can actually observe)?

·
·
·

We have already tested the current reward curve and the results were 1% rewards for commenters. With a result so low, yes I strongly disagree with your whole rejection of experimentation.

·
·
·
·

We have already tested the current reward curve and the results were 1% rewards for commenters. With a result so low, yes I strongly disagree with your whole rejection of experimentation.

Yeah...that's why I'm not for keeping the current rewards curve. It would help if you actually read what I've been writing instead of just insisting that you "strongly disagree" without actually explaining what exactly you disagree with.

I made four specific points. Maybe you can address them one at a time, if it's easier?

·
·
·

Separate the rewards pool and see what numbers it yields & response that comes from the community. BETA is trial and error not assumption and deny correct? Create a Reward Pool and see what comes from it. If its good then so be it, if its bad, then so be it. Let the people decide, regardless of how small the number.

-V.O.T.U. Pirate King

·
·

I agree there is a need to attract more than just bloggers to the site. But, I disagree that a new reward pool for comments needs to be created to achieve this.

I have made probably about $100 from comments since joining. And that is without attempting to, and only engaging in conversation when I want to. One doesn't need a separate reward pool in order to be rewarded through comments.

I worry that with the creation of this second pool, people will not be engaging in conversation because they feel passionately about the topic and want to weigh in. Instead, there may be a wave of people attempting to game the comments reward pool as there currently are those attempting to game the post and comment pool. We may also get a lot of lazy, spammy comments, written purely with the intent of gaining a monetary reward, rather than inviting meaningful discussion.

It could result in less authentic engagement, which will make Steemit less inviting to newcomers.

This is my worry at least. I do hope that I am wrong.

·
·
·

Reddit was grown to be the top 23 most visited website without any monetary incentives, so I think the evidences shows the comment reward pool isn't necessary to attract people to Steem.

Also in the early days of Steem people could make a simple introduction post and make in the hundreds and even thousands of dollars rewards but a lot of people just wouldn't join Steem and make the no-brainer move of making those posts. (I can name many of my friends and I heard of many more)

There is no need for separate reward pool to attract people on Steem. Are there good reasons for separate pool? Maybe.

Trending comment would need a section on themselves or how are we suppose to find those great comments and conversations.

I don't know the best way to go. It's a tough call either way.

·
·

The same thing you are supporting here can happen with a single pool where comments are not absurdly penalized by the fact that the highest-rewarded posts get multiple whale votes resulting in potentially quadrillions of times more weight than comment posts with even a decent amount of non-whale voting. (Of course the same applies to posts as well.) Flattening the overall curve goes a long way toward alleviating a lot of these problems and should be tried first.

·
·

I think a separate reward pool for comments is much needed considering the current ^2 distribution rule. However, if you want to make these changes, I strongly urge you to do them one at a time so we can see what effect they're having on the system.

It's reasonable to think that separating the comment reward pool from the blogging reward pool will give people more incentives to vote on comments. However, at the same time, you're going to remove curation rewards from comments, giving people less incentive to vote on comments. It might be a good move to make both changes, but do them one at a time so you can know the results of each.

·
·
·

I don't think we'll need incentive to vote for comments. People already vote for them at a cost to curation rewards, so those comments that do get votes would get maybe 38 times what they get now while most people will still get 0 - which is ok because we don't want to encourage spam comments anyway.

·
·
·
·

I don't think we'll need incentive to vote for comments. People already vote for them at a cost to curation rewards

I think this is true to an extent, but today people vote on blogs posts much more often than they vote on comments. Compare that to the trending reddit posts where it's very common to see comments that have almost as many or as many votes as the post itself.

so those comments that do get votes would get maybe 38 times what they get now while most people will still get 0

While it will be significantly higher, I don't think it will be 38X for a few reasons:

  • The distribution curve is changing
  • People's voting habits will likely change in some way
  • There will be a greater incentive to engage with posts by commenting, which should result in more comments. That means more competition for the comment reward pool.
·
·

And this cannot be achieved through the same reward pool? You have not explained/argued how or by what mechanism exactly more engagement happens because of a separate reward pool.

·
·
·

Because with separate reward pool comments compete against other comments, not posts. Allocating 38% for comment rewards instead of current nearly 10% is enough economic incentive to predict significant improvement in the quality of discussion.

·
·
·
·

Its audacious to say comments aren't worth as much as posts, and I think everyone agrees on that, at least I hope so, but splitting up the reward pool is treating comments as a different system and that will create more problems because of unnecessary complications. The quality of discussion won't improve simply because of a separate reward pool. You have argued not so much that it's necessary to have a different pool, you have argued mostly that it's necessary to treat comments with the same system/standards that posts get treated with to some extent, which I half agree with, because as long as posts are more valuable than comments the incentive for posts outweighs comments, even if it's marginal. Are we arguing that comments are not worth as much as posts or that they should not take from the rewards posts get, because I don't understand how a separate system is indeed the solution and not an unnecessary complication, wouldn't a better solution be to treat comments with the exact same standards the posts get, in turn removing a whole bunch of extra processing and speeding up the system, and in turn making the curves the same will not give any incentive to game one aspect over another.

·
·
·

Well I thought it was obvious. How about 38 times more rewards?
https://steemit.com/comments/@beanz/why-should-commenters-make-38x-more-rewards

·
·
·
·

I am all for removing curation rewards, but that doesn't mean that comments should be less valuable than posts, as many have pointed out they are not of the same opinion that devaluing comments is necessary. I believe that comments can and should be treated as posts (when curation rewards are removed of course) and should compete in the same reward pool then.

·
·
·
·
·

I think it would be a terrible idea to remove curation rewards completely to be honest. Curation rewards give SP a use value. Without it, this is not much better than the many many tipping platforms that have tried and failed. People will simply use their SP to upvotes themselves and their will be no point in curating content (organising it so that the better material is more visible)

·
·
·
·
·

I don't see people's behavior changing based on the rewards that curations pays (whales/hoarders excluded), at least to say that curation won't happen, curation rewards give meaning to SP, then shouldn't SP necessarily be scrapped because like you said it incentivizes votes based on payout/profit rather than on curation at that point.. or am I misunderstanding it. Curation won't stop simply because there's no paying incentive to do it. People will still type and post things because they have other incentives, they will curate in pretty much the same manner. Other platforms have a decider/admin/authority that supersedes users, steem does not, which is why I think steem cannot fail, but that is not to say that it won't stunt it's growth to have such discrepancy in power between users, it's very off putting to anybody that joins when they see not necessarily self voting, or even self voting whales, but collusion of power to gain more power. I understand the steem power is actually a great thing to invest into for arbitration, but as it is now it acts more like a savings account to use in a game of big wallet little wallet and less as a tool for arbitration.

·
·
·
·
·

-nesting limit-
@beanz
I haven't read the whole whitepaper but I have just finished the section on payouts and rewards and I have a general understanding of how SP works now. I agree, curation rewards are necessary to give SP a use value like you said to curate content more effectively, therefore I believe that yes we need to curtail curation rewards to allocate the votes in the comments but I still do not understand how this needs it's own pool besides the argument that posts are going to suffer because people will allocate their votes in the comments instead of posts which in turn will devalue posts.
To counter that argument that a separate comment reward pool why not allocate more votes over the same period of time and in turn allowing people to compete in the same pool, of course with this new curve for voting power.

·

I see no reason to treat "posts" and comments differently, personally. They're both words strung together to form sentences, which users may or may not find funny, entertaining, valuable, or whatever.

·
·

speaking about that...

there was an idea, that... pool for comments in the posts could be proportional to value of a post. That of course would cause that only top-trending post would be commented... so what if we would create a pool for a comments which would be inversely proportional to value of a post?

I am thinking about designing a system of incentives, which would encourage people to leave a valuable feedback and comments under undervalued posts.

That would cause, that people would start to focus on commenting new users :)

·
·
·

That makes no sense.

·
·
·
·

because...?

·
·
·
·
·

I don't see how people spamming "Good post :)" on every bad post on the platform will create any long lasting value.

·
·
·
·

I don't see how people spamming "Good post :)" on every bad post on the platform will create any long lasting value.

only the pool for comments under low-value post will be greater. Someone still would need to vote for that.

If someone would leave a great comment under average post and only X would vote for that, this comment should receive more reward comparing to situation when exactly the same comment would be posted under post which already has great value and also would be voted be the same X.

That would actually cause that "great post" comments (which were posted only to be rewarded) would almost never appear under great-value post.. because those comment would need to receive tons of votes to get meaningful payout from smaller pot.

·
·
·

Or...and hear me out on this one...it may not be easy to follow...

We could make things simpler and treat all posts the same? :)

·
·
·
·

if you would like to make things simpler, then you could make a proposition to set equal vote for everyone - that is simple! But wait! That would not be steem any more.

Things can be and should be simple when they proved that they are working.

Whole my concept described above would be actually easy to explain: Help those, who are weaker. They have the greatest potential to grow!

Actually the whole purpose of curation rewards were to encourage exactly this behavior. The problem is... that vote is not the best way to give a feedback. There is a reason why when people are flagged, they are always looking for explanation from a flagger.

·

Also its worth noting that just flattening the curve (and thereby removing a large portion of the penalty for fractional voting) will potentially have a significant effect of curating comments in and of itself.

The formula they used is great. Better than n log n. I just wish it didn't come with yet another side order of opening up additional vectors for abuse.

·
·

In fact, in terms of amount of reward distributed I think this curve might penalize large users mildly for not splitting their vote (and also for bandwagoning)

·
·
·

I think it's important to encourage curators to split their vote.

·

Though I am personally for removing curation reward, I totally agree your opinion. Removing curation reward and separating comment pool are not fully discussed yet, and there's no clear consensus among the community members. Let unfinished things opened.

·

If the plan is to increase engagement, perhaps the focus should be on growing the active user base beyond the ~800 daily authors and a couple of thousand active accounts

Can you seriously not see how rewarding commenters would grow the userbase beyond bloggers to a wider userbase of commenters?

Basically, the problem isn't a lack of comment rewards. The problem is the lack of a large enough, active, human user base to make the platform function as intended.

Can you seriously not see how comment rewards would attract a larger user base beyond "bloggers"?

·
·

Can you seriously not see how rewarding commenters would grow the userbase beyond bloggers to a wider userbase of commenters?

Did you seriously miss the point where I said...

"Instead of creating a separate pool for comments, why not treat blog posts and comments the same? Same curves, same curation rewards, same time frames for voting. Wouldn't that make more sense and actually adhere to the KISS principle?"

Do you understand the implication there and the effect it could have on comment rewards and incentives for both commenters and comment voters?

Can you seriously not see how comment rewards would attract a larger user base beyond "bloggers"?

Did you seriously miss the point I made when I said...

"Ultimately though, a comment pool will not attract users if nobody knows about it...or the website itself. Unless there is going to be a marketing campaign to accompany these changes, they won't matter much. Steemit has a lack of active human users and an apparent lack of interested potential users."

The problem with the tiny user base and engagement isn't a lack of a comment rewards pool. Surely, you should have been able to figure that out by now. It's not like the problems haven't been debated ad nauseam.

·
·
·

Did you miss my reply that said I disagree. I apologise for not phrasing it as completely disagree rather than just strongly, I hadn't realised you wanted me to waste my time breaking down your comment in a battle of sophistry.

·

Not sure where you get these figures you toss around for the number of authors and active users. You maybe need to start following @elyaque who puts out those figures on a daily basis.

Image1.gif

The numbers could be a lot better but you seem to prefer to them be a lot worse which to me places some of your other assumptions in question. I think we need to let the dev team try out what they have in mind knowing they will be willing to roll it back after looking at real figures on the effect the changes have.

·
·

Not sure where you get these figures you toss around for the number of authors and active users.

Steempunks.com

We propose to role out the new curve for the comments only because comments do not have curation rewards in the next release.

I am opposed to this. Among other problems it will result in less honest (or at least not aggressively abusive) vote power being deployed into the comment pool and therefore facilitate abuse.

I think it is better to address the issue of revising curation rewards as needed, not have a separate comment pool at all, and just use the new curve (or one like it) for all content, with all content earning curation rewards.

·

Why treat posts as different from comments when comments can contain just as much information as posts, will engage users in a natural way by starting/continuing the conversation and exploring other discussions, and if we remove the incentives for commenting or experimenting with comments doesn't that affect a greater majority than posts themselves as there are more comments than posts?

·
·

I agree. I suggested above:

not have a separate comment pool at all

·
·
·

Yes I was agreeing in my own convoluted way, sorry for the confusion.

·
·

Some here I agree. Dont change it.

·
·

Currently what stands out to me is the lack of reading, nobody sees posts so nobody reads comments, and older posts are locked to comment so themes and conversations get diluted. I would say we need a natural way to incentives comments not by another reward pool, but rather by making them available to the readers, so far people can read only the title of the post and some arbitrary information, what if a substantial update was made, yeah I'm thinking comment rewards are a good thing, a few people have been offering them but those are people making good payouts. Tough question. I have a idea I'm not sure it's a good one. It will certainly not fit the Kiss strategy :D

·

I agree with you but I won' cast my vote on such a high payout post :D I agree with your point, but I would flag for an oversized payout :D

·

Maybe N SQUARED is a feature and not a bug... The free market is currently finding the value of what STEEM is worth in spite of the highly visible selfish mining syndrome which plagues all communities. If one of the biggest whales like Smooth says he hates this proposed change, then I'd wonder how bad he hates this change as a shareholder. In other words, If I was a whale like Smooth, and someone took my cheese away, I just might shrug and leave.

https://steemit.com/steem/@steemjesus/1-good-thing-about-steem-is-that-the-weak-arguements-fall-away-so-fast#@gtg/re-steemjesus-re-

·
·

I think you misunderstand. I'm very much in favor of a flatter reward curve, but it should be for all posts and not just comments, there should not be a fixed percentage allocated to comments (which could very well be either too high or too low, or even both at different times) and posts and comments should be treated equally with respect to curation rewards.

·
·
·

Curation of comments is nowhere near the same importance as curation of posts. Rather than seek more ways to generate more steem, why not start thinking about what makes steem more valuable to people as a whole. 38% isn't really a cut if you consider what good it could do for the price.

·
·
·
·

It is very unclear to me that any of this has much effect on the price but if it does then flattening the entire reward pool (including comments) with one system that is less complicated and confusing would likely be more positive.

·
·
·

Agreed but who is deciding the road on what happens @smooth - who are the ones with the POWER within the company that drive the steem ecosystem? Not speaking about the people on top of the company to the public world here. Any hint would be cool - sorry for asking but I work in PR

Three things:

  1. Why no curation rewards?
  2. If no curation rewards, you obviously need a separate voting power pool. Otherwise you'll be directly incentivizing people not to vote for comments.
  3. I believe the current reward curve is plotted incorrectly on your graphs. It is n^2 + an, strictly superlinear. That is, its derivative is not 0 at n=0. I don't know if that has much effect on your conclusions, but I figured I might as well point it out.
·

If no curation rewards, you obviously need a separate voting power pool. Otherwise you'll be directly incentivizing people not to vote for comments.

If adding a separate voting power pool for comments, they could do the "8X more rshares" thing they wanted to implement a while back.

·
·

Yeah, I think that would make a lot of sense.

·

separate voting power pool

I disagree that this is needed. I think that the opportunity cost to voting for comments may actually be a very encouraging thing for minnows who won't have any opportunity cost. (Remember most users start as a minnow)

https://steemit.com/comments/@beanz/why-should-commenters-make-38x-more-rewards

only because comments do not have curation rewards in the next release.

This will reduce curation reward a lot which is currently the primary incentive to buy steem power.
Steem should slow down money distribution to people who don't buy steem power. This is not going to end well . All effort should be done to rewards those who actually buy steem power.
https://steemit.com/steem/@snowflake/steem-inflation-a-tool-to-create-demand

·

That defeats the purpose in my opinion. The purpose was never to reward those who buy steem. The purpose is to reward participation on the platform because that distributes the currency to as many people as possible. That includes bloggers and commenters. Remember that steems value is speculative, so what 38% is worth now, will have completely changed over time and especially after recruiting a larger user base of commenters rather than just bloggers and curators.
https://steemit.com/comments/@beanz/why-should-commenters-make-38x-more-rewards

·
·

The reason people want steem is because it has value, if it was worthless people wouldn't give a fu* about it, so you have to make sure to align incentives with people pouring money into the system aka investors. If it was guaranteed that minnows would gain more influence I think it would probably be a good trade off and I'd go along with it, but whales will still be able to upvote and so I doubt minnows will gain much and be incentivized enough to buy steem power . This problem needs to be dealt with at the root. Btw I think that steem won't survive long term if 100% of the voting power is not given to the 99.8% so I am very into the idea of giving minnow influence but the way it's being done here bothers me.

·
·
·

The reason, why not say The only reason..

It's not just about investing capital but about investing attention and effort, and people do that for free everywhere else, so..

You can't judge of a curve over another until there has been enough users to the platform. The fact that we can't subscibe to tags, that the retsteem are at the same place than the followed posts. and that there is no more 30 days trending. (there should be way more time range) Also we should be able to select a bunch of tags and cutomize a homepage like reddit does.
I really wonder where the steemit energy is being put.

·
·
·

esteem is very good and better than steemit.com, What's the point ?
Are you making steemit.com responsive or building iOS / Android native app ?

·
·
·

I really wonder where the steemit energy is being put.

I was just saying what Steemit is doing ;) I don't get why they (sneak) are going full throttle into mobile, and ignoring the existing userbase of bloggers and requests for better features. They are going to focus on mobile users, and their attention spans, and what they can do (not blogging/writing obviously).

·
·
·
·

Because STEEM is a currency first, and a social media app second. The number 2 most used (#transactions) chain on earth.

My personal opinion is we need to adjust 1 part in the denominator. Currently the constant part is equivalent to about 400 MVESTS, so dolphins still have significant disadvantages compared to whales and this also allows bots to easily choose their strategies.
I would suggest to decrease it below 100. With lowered bar, many more posts can reach the almost-linear section then people will have more leeway to choose posts to upvote, while bots will be confused by flood of candidates.

·

As I said in the chat room, we can also continue using the n^2 + a*n curve but increase a to a value equivalent to about 20000 MVESTS. With this curve the lottery effect will remain but only to posts with highly concentrated whales voting. Any single whale voting on a post alone will only have a near-linear effect.

My head hurts. Apparently, it has been too long since my last math lesson.

·

ME TOO. What happened to KISS? Steemitblog needs an interpreter.

·
·

KISS , in a Hard Fork :D , it never is :D , KISSing Hard Forks is tough business.

·
·
·

"hard fork" seems to have at least one other meaning......

·
·
·
·

a place where you decide where to turn to? :) but pease do tell.
I hate figuring stuff out :D , normally I make assumptions. And end up wrong :D

·
·
·
·
·

hint: my mind is in the gutter.

·
·
·
·

google can't help me I'm spent :D I'm literally coming up with thousands of bullshit.

I'm not that good with words.

·

I finished my draft mainly on technical/mathematical sides. Hopefully it helps your understanding (but I cannot guarantee LOL). It will be posted after polished by peers, maybe tonight or tomorrow.

·
·

looking forward to that.

So there is a lot of controversy around splitting the rewards pool. I honestly keep going back and forth on it, so I can't say I have an extremely strong position on it. I am still giving it a lot of thought. The one big argument that I will say against it though is it seems like it violates KISS.

So ignoring whether you are for or against splitting the rewards pool for a sec, I will say I am strongly in favor of using n^2 / (1 + n) in place of n^2. @clayop did an excellent job summarizing the views that came out of a very large community discussion here, and the consensus is that implementing this across the board (for comments and posts) is a really good idea.

There has also been some talk about re-working the curation formula too, to incentivize better voting behavior. I think there is potential to make some significant improvements here, and I've heard some good ideas proposed by @smooth.

We propose to role out the new curve for the comments only because comments do not have curation rewards in the next release. If it is successful for comments, then we will have to derive a new curation reward equation based upon this curve before we can adopt this curve to top level posts.

I do really like that the end goal includes having n^2 / (1 + n) for both comments and rewards, and potential changes to the curation formula. Both of these are a big plus IMO.

I wish I had a livestream of our conversation last night on steemit chat that discussed this very thing. By midnight last night, all of us were on the same page: @clayop, @donkeypong, @smooth, @ats-david, @bacchist (i think), @jesta, @sigmajin, @abit and many more I cannot recall. We all agreed that going with a closer to linear curve would be in everyone's best interest and the long-term future of users, and steemit itself.

·

oh i see how it is

·
·

your name is there.....just look.

I don't see how this curve discourage self voting. All it does is that it reduces payout of every posts that is already earning very little. You basically reduce a few self voting posts at the expense of everyone else.
The only logical way to counter self voting is to downvote self voted content.

but as you can see from the graph, it takes longer to reach a linear approximation and then it overshoots and remains biased toward concentration of votes.

This (at least the first part) is really a function of the scaling constants used and not inherent in the curve.

Can someone re-write this post in proper English? I swear my high school math is dusty.

So glad to see this.

I like Green best tbh

for the comments only because comments do not have curation rewards in the next release.

if there won't be separate pool for comments rewards, is that going to make comments even less valuable comparing to posts (because n*log(n) vote for comment will need to compete with n^2 vote for a post)?

I would prefer rather to encourage giving feedback, and not take rewards from an only place where valuable feedback cannot be so simply automated - comments.

·

I think they are saying there will be a separate reward pool for comments and they will use it to test the algorithm. This is an experiment and so we should be testing out different variables to see what works.

·
·

in that case... I think it is a good idea :)

·
·

if we are going to experiment can't there be a separate chain like SteemitEXPERIMENT do shit there, stop Hard Froking everyone every two months or so :D it's bad enough there is a learning curve for most, now let's keep changing the rules :D keep it simple after all :D

·
·
·

We are the beta testers!

·
·
·
·

No we are guanine pigs :D or rats testing the maze :D the beta testers made their 1000$s and 10s of 1000S :D they have their SSS already :D

·
·
·
·
·

That's one short sighted way to look at it

·
·
·
·

I've lost my long term view for the platform for now. It's great and all but I'm yet to be proven it can be scaled and become what I envisioned it as.

·
·
·
·
·

The proof isn't due yet imo.

Sorry about your loss. Seems to be a bug going around. Get well soon.

·
·
·
·

haaha reality is not a bug, the "want" is more of a bug since it requires reality to change. I expected much more and it's hard to sustain. What I'm missing is having an interaction, everyone is going around a maze for rewards :D , rarely somebody asks a question why and what for. And he receives silence as an answer most of the time.

Anyways there is enough incentive to read and press buttons. And not enough it seems to ask questions.

Don't worry I'm not bugged or anything if at all I'm reading more and participating more since I hope problems can be solved rather than overlooked. Just the state I see things from isn't that awesome and uplifting as I used to imagine :).

This change has been badly needed. I think the pink or green line would be tremendously better than the current situation, with possibly the green line being best overall. I can get on board with either though. :)

We also believe that whales (accounts with over $500K Steem Power) have more to lose and are easier to police than the multitude of smaller accounts.

My impression is that whale activity is harder to counter if it moves towards negative behavior.

Or am I reading this the wrong way?

·

Well, its harder to counter yes, but its also worth less. As the rewards go up, the post still gets more rewards, but in general the payout moves more slowly in either direction.

The newly-proposed green line is very similar to the red (current) line in the beginning, but then it diverges pretty quickly.

Take someone like me and assume a full-powered vote at 100% voting power. If the green line were to replace the red line, with my current 57,000 Steem Power, am I going to see a significant difference in my amount of influence on a new, unvoted post?

·

Im assuming the "1" and the 10 and such here aren't going to be actual ones and 10s.... theyre going to base it off some meaningful amount of SP. Its tough to say when we don't know where thats at. Which is to say, i think we're seeing the shape of the curve here, not its magnitude.

This is also significantly effected by voting habits (which could change with the new rules).

In terms of the actual amount of curation blogging rewards you assign, it might very well be that some users will see a negative impact on their influence from not splitting up their vote now.

·
·

There are no curation rewards for comments.

·
·
·

d'oh. Meant blogging said curation....

·
·
·

A separate reward pool for comments without curation rewards will take a part away from the current curation rewards. If there are no curation rewards for comments it's less attractive to buy and hold Steem Power, isn't it?

·
·
·
·

The STEEM price is speculative. If this increases demand for steem (improving the price) by attracting a wider audience then the 38% of the pool without curation rewards won't matter in my opinion.

·
·
·

I like the idea of no curation rewards for comments. Makes it less of a money grab, more social.

Regarding the complexity issue that I mentioned in my first comment...

I couldn't tell you how many times I see things like this. Another pool with more/different rules takes away from the very intuitiveness that this new user mentions. Please do as you said you would do and stick to the KISS principle. This platform desperately needs more of that.

However, I have also spent multiple hours reading up on the mechanics making Steemit work, and I still don't have all of the answers to some basic questions. While I'm sure you could all jump in and answer the specific questions I have, I think that it points to a more serious issue. The user experience for newcomers is not even close to intuitive.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@jumpy/steemit-s-complexity-problem

I think the green curve is the ideal. If not, then pink runner up? That's my input but I'm not sure if it's accurate (maybe going above 1 is better?). If this implies a separate comment reward pool, then I'm against that as I have posted about 3 times to explain why. It won't solve the problem. Thanks!

·

Maybe more people should say it. Giving incentives for commenting will just reduce the curation and author rewards. Comments should be incentivised by views. Threads should be active, not passive. Comments should be the backbone of posts because they unwrap the given theme.

My opinion:

  1. I agree with those who say just change one thing at a time. I would change the reward function now, without dealing with the comment reward pool at the same time.

  2. In the White Paper, the reason for an exponential function as the reward function is explained, and still might be valid. But does the exponent Have to be 2? Why not bump it down to 1.5 or even 1.2 in order to flatten the curve?

  3. Why not make the exponent a parameter the witnesses can adjust over time, much as they now adjust the Steem Backed Dollar's interest rate?

I have a practical suggestion. We could try to find a perfect curve with theoretical reasoning, and go back and forth for a long time...or, we could just decide to run an experiment. Suppose HF17 ships with n^2 / (1 + n) which automatically expires, and reverts back to n^2 1 month from now. This way, there is limited downside risk, and we get to actually see how the new curve performs in practice.

I support what daniel larimer thinks is good. I believe in his heart and math skills.

I think unless the payout is determined in 0.0000001 decimals form versus 0.00 decimals, newbies and low rep will still get nothing most of the time, ya?

The highest-rewarded posts get multiple whale votes resulting in potentially quadrillions of times more weight than posts with even a decent amount of non-whale voting.

( I took this statement by @smooth out of context and modified it slightly. )

The problem doesn't seem to be the curve, but the behavior of some major stakeholders.

Is it possible to raise the bottom without affecting the top?

IF the minnowmath could be raised by 1000 without impacting what the whales currently have that would be more desirable, to me.

No need to take from them to give to us, unless the math can't support a change such as this.
In the future I'd like my whale rewards to be as high as possible.
Currently, I'd just like to matter in the math, but I need something to aspire to in the future.

My opinion:
Should comments be rewarded? Yes.
Should there be a separate comments pool? No. I don't see the point in that.

Here's a change I would propose.

Reward comments that are at least 100 characters long or 80 characters + pic/gif. Excessive ellipses would not count.

And if you don't want people upvoting their own content then simply remove the button. I personally do upvote my own content using SteemVoter after 30 minutes. Then again, I try not to post junk so technically I'm upvoting quality content. I can't be the only one who feels this way.

why don't we apply Zipf's Law equation for reward calculations?

First we sort all candidates according to their votes, then make the reward of a post proportional to 1/k, where k is the rank of the post.

·

For better performance, payout time points are divested. Every block there will be some posts being payout. So you can't sort all candidates all the time.
Also it seems 1/k is weak against Sybil attacks.

My first payout ever was from a comment... Lately no one comment at all. I want the platform to reward what promotes user interaction!

I would like to see the ability to edit, or even delete posts, beyond the 30 day limit.

For now, a 2nd pool seems too counterproductive. I'm new to Steemit but it seems that a 2nd pool for paying comments like you would pay posts would or could be nice but it may not be in demand in this market until Steemit becomes more more popular or something. Getting paid automatically for commenting, or whatever that it might be, encourages something like welfare like a desire to game the system to spam or whatever that it might be. I do not want to use the word "SPAM" because I find that word too difficult to define but I think that we are already paid when people upvote our comments and that might be good enough for now.