Increasing Curation, Demand for Steem Power and Community Interaction

in steem •  2 years ago

Over the last few weeks I've been thinking about ways we could increase the demand for Steem Power, the quality of curated content and the incentives to participate as a Steem curator.

Here are a couple ideas I have been kicking around. They're not fully mature and could use a good rinsing by the community.

Allow Steem holders to delegate their Steem Power voting rights to a voting pool

A delegated voting pool could socialize voting power and individualize rewards. One prime use for this could be the @steemit account. @steemit could create a voting pool and invite anyone with a verified identity and good reputation to join the pool as a curator. This could increase the number of unique curators, help bootstrap Steem as an identity database and give people even more incentives to sign up.

To show the numbers, an example would be Alice Bob and Charley each delegate their SP of 2, 3, and 7 to one voting pool. Now they each have 4, 4, and 4 SP to be used to curate. Better curation would earn them more curation rewards.

A side effect of delegated voting pools could be voting markets. Any user would have the power to create a voting pool and these users could charge curators for participation. Some of the platform's whales could be interested in offering subscription models to minnows as a way to get more voting influence.

If powering down stake loses voting influence

Imagine that any stake being powered down would lose its rights to use voting influence. This could make the system very clear in the regard that stake is either in or it is out. Users could be able to choose any % of their stake to power down regardless of how many accounts they have and only the % stake that is powering down would lose voting influence. Stopping a power down could return all voting rights.

Perhaps the effect of this could be 1/ more interest to stay in the platform and 2/ more fluidity in the witness queue 3/ more fairness regarding the PoS nature of Steem 4/ more clarity from participants looking to exit the system

Combined effect?

Perhaps these proposals could have a combined effect that increases the demand and fluidity of Steem Power while improving the curated experience for people visiting Steem based websites.

What are your thoughts and questions?

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1 needs modification, 2 is a good idea

Despite some who call 2 an exit fee, I think Steem Power should stop being marketed as an "investment" to "investors". Market it to users of the platform who want to power up their accounts but make powering up or upgrading a lot easier. Make it possible with a gift card, fiat, a credit card, or Paypal. People should never see Bitcoin or blockchain anywhere on the Steemit official marketing.

Use gamification to make people want to upgrade their Steem Power. Market Steem Dollars to crypto investors for the 10% interest.

Steem Power a purchasable upgrade for accounts

reddit gold is our premium membership program. It grants you access to extra features to improve your reddit experience. It also makes you really quite dapper.

And Alice goes to Walgreens with her Visa Card and buys the Steem Card instead of the Netflix card. It's also possible to sell a Steem Power subscription for people who want to buy a little bit at a time, remeber WoW is subscription based and. Second Life has Linden Dollars which are like our Steem Dollars and can be marketed in a similar way.

Do not make the mistake of listening to crypto anarchists or crypto people when it comes to marketing. Crypto people are horrible at marketing and that includes Bitcoin. All of crypto has a bad reputaton and horrible marketing. Look at Pokemon Go or even Reddit Gold to see how to do marketing, or just hire a profesisonal in gamification and marketing guru. Do not listen to Steemit whales and don't even listen to me. Hire people who are from the gaming world, or who marketed popular social networks.

Note: notice games and social networks never use words like "investor" or "speculator", as this would be like trying to market the social network as a gambling site which is something they all avoid.

UPDATE: IF ANYONE CAN GET IN CONTACT WITH Jane McGonigal AND HIRE HER AS A CONSULTANT IT WOULD BE GREAT FOR STEEMIT. SHE IS A THOUGHT LEADER IN "PURPOSE DRIVEN GAMING" AND HAVING HER ASSOCIATED WITH STEEMIT WOULD BRING MOMENTUM.

References

  1. https://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Buying-and-selling-Linden-dollars/ta-p/700107
  2. https://www.reddit.com/gold/about/
  3. https://www.quora.com/Who-are-the-best-gamification-experts
  4. https://www.linkedin.com/title/gamification-expert
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Both @ned and @dan are crypto anarchists (or voluntaryists ?) so the likelihood of them not listening to that approach is slimmer.

I think you're hitting at a root cause here -- pie in the sky ideals only last as long as it takes for reality to step in. Believing that all SP can be essentially redistributed 'fairly' without psychology and market forces wreaking havoc on the ecosystem is foolish and a sure way to lose market share. Greg Maxwell has a similar, but different, problem... all tech, no business.

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I know for a fact Dan and Ned aren't currently listening to crypto-anarchists. Some of the solutions they are considering definitely haven't come from crypto-anarchists. Good ideas are good ideas and they can be crypto-anarchists privately but the platform isn't going to survive appealing to a fringe philosophical and political viewpoint.

Data should be collected. An Ideal user should be chosen. And then all effort should be about encouraging that.

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Believing that all SP can be essentially redistributed 'fairly' without psychology and market forces wreaking havoc on the ecosystem is foolish
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That's pretty much it, really. Demand for Steem Power is stalling because there's limited appeal to the platform. In free-to-play games, whales are addicted and have ample motivation to keep leveling up. On Steemit, I'm not seeing the same appeal. There are a lot of great suggestions throughout this thread. But the essence is clear - creating penalties and controls will never create demand. Adding value and appeal to the platform will.

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I wholeheartedly agree about making powering up easier. I borrowed a bit of money to power up,but I have not yet used it,because the whole process seems very cumbersome, so I have procrastinated. The thought of it makes me nervous,to be honest, I´m afraid that I will manage to fuck up somehow and lose my money.

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Exactly in line with some thoughts I have had..... not my intent to spam your comment but would love your opinion on this,
https://steemit.com/steemit/@clevecross/if-it-were-mine-to-change-my-answer-to-stellabella-and-why

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or just hire a professional in gamification and marketing guru. Do not listen to Steemit whales and don't even listen to me. Hire people who are from the gaming world, or who marketed popular social networks.

THIS^^^

Both proposals will reduce and not increase the demand for steem. First, divesting already has a 2 year time schedule. If you make vests worthless during those two years by taking away their power to earn any curation rewards, then there will be much less incentive to actually own vests. Committing vests for 2 years already places a huge drag on demand. Completely neutering vests for 2 years will do even more damage.

Second, by having a voting pool that includes steemits vests, you reduce the value of all other vests. The incentive will be to power down, lose your voting rewards, then get a real identity and leverage steemit's vests instead.

The combination of these two proposals is to scrap any incentive to own vests becasue (1) they will be worthless as capital while powering down and (2) they will be unable to compete with steemit's vests when not powering down.

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That's why it would be a good idea to provide a sliding scale.

There's a mechanism on a macro scale when liquid steem reaches around 10-13%.

Why shouldn't there be one on a micro level? Otherwise powering down just turns exiting into a tragedy of the commons.

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Yes, also if you want to make vest or steem more valuable, trying to increase artificial demand is not going to help. What we need to focus on is quality content and growth. So instead of focusing on the investors, focus on the users. Especially winning new users and retaining them.

I have written a proposal yesterday about bounties that i think will help in this regard. Curation also needs to be improved though.

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Yes, a bounty system would work (think of gamification). If new users do not get all the Steem Power at once but in interval, let's say 5 Steem Power for sign up and the next steem power tied to length of stay etc.

@steempowerwhale
upvoting your lifetime dreams!

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@steemed really good points that someone like me who is just getting caught up to speed with the technical side as opposed to content creation aspect would have never considered. So much to learn. Thanks for the insight.

IMO, losing voting influence by powering down diminishes the value of investing in SP. If someone is flush in SP, then powering down might be gravy. But for others, powering down at some point might involve their week to week sustenance. And they might contribute so much to the platform that they're able to keep moving ahead of the power-down curve.
Some have invested Steem they bought from exchanges in order to move forward on Steemit more quickly, as part of their investment in the platform. It seems like pulling the rug out from under them to take away their voting influence simply because they're cashing in on part of their investment. Their ability to influence through voting is part of their investment. Keep the investment in SP attractive by maintaining all privileges that come with it, including what remains when powering down.

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Completely agree about powering down. But I think the idea of voting pools (if the whales actually used them) could help to bring more diverse content to the home page by empowering more users' votes to make a difference.

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I think I agree. Honestly, I didn't understand the particulars about that enough to really form a firm opinion. On the surface, however, I like the idea.
lol, someone flagged my comment. It must have been particularly rude and insulting.

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lol, someone flagged my comment. It must have been particularly rude and insulting.

No there are some trolls who are going around flagging for no good reason. Don't take it personally, and you will get offsetting upvotes from good community members in response, so it doesn't really hurt anything.

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Thanks @smooth. Yeah, the "lol" was real.
Apparently we have flag bearing trolls with nothing better to do.
Thanks again!

Maybe you should try to find something that would actually encourage users to want to power up and use the platform rather than trying to lock in those who are already here. Also, give your "whales" a reason to not want to power down and some might stop. Right now there is absolutely NO reason to not be powering down and cashing out every week, plain and simple.

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Something that would encourage more users to power up would be not seeing so many of the whales powering down. I think that's one of the largest psychological hurdles. When the early holders and investors into the platform appear to be cashing out of their investment - while still in beta - it doesn't exactly send a signal to future investors and users that there is confidence that the platform will succeed. It doesn't matter what the motivations are for cashing out. It's a perception problem.

But the question is - how can a whale cash out if they don't earn SBD from curating? They must power down to cash out the rewards. Or...they can engage more in posts and post themselves. However, when this happens, the self upvote becomes another problem and potential for abuse - perceived or real.

So, we have several different issues in play, but the proposed solutions never seem to address them. And the largest resistance that the rest of us see actually comes from whales. At some point, there will need to be a compromise - or we can all just watch the value of Steem plummet, in which case, powering up or down will be moot.

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The platform was launched with an incredibly high concentration of stake. There were reasons it was done that way with which one can agree or disagree, but that is in the past and can't be changed now.

The only mathematically feasible way for stake to be redistributed without taking many, many years (as it would to do so via rewards, and even then only if the vested SP remains above 90% which is uncertain) is for existing whales to power down and sell. That is absolutely essential to creating a healthier balance of influence and investment, and discouraging it is harmful.

It will play out to where whales have the stake they actually want, instead of what they inherited from the nature of the launch, and then the power downs will slow to an equilibrium, with a wider base of stakeholders. The sooner we get there the better.

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I don't disagree that it's a way to redistribute influence. My point is that the reasons aren't being communicated well - especially to those outside of the platform. Investors only see that there is a lot of Steem being dumped in the market. Users only know why it's happening if it's communicated here on Steemit. There doesn't appear to be much of an attempt to explain why whales are powering down, what that money is being used for if it's Steemit-related, or how it could actually be beneficial.

More transparency and some explanations would go a long way.

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Thanks for your response - I believe there's some merit in what you've written but I can't say I fully understand what your suggestions are.

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I don't know what the answer is at this point, but I don't think forcing people to either participate (without powering down) or leave (powering down, not able to participate) is it.

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I don't have any specific suggestions, but it sounds like he is saying we need to find more things that add value to SP (kind to like promoted posts gave people more of a reason to have SBD).

Right now voting power, curation rewards, and long term speculation of a price increase are really the main reasons to power up. The fact you need about $50k worth of SP to really make a difference on the first two is a big discouragement for most people.

Can we think / brainstorm about more benefits that we can offer people for buying/ holding SP?

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Beyond that, let's just add more reasons for people to participate on the platform, regardless of their SP.

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Leading by example would be a good start. At the time of writing this comment, both @ned and @dantheman accounts are powering down. This is pretty ironic actually.

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One simple way to give incentive for people to power up is resetting the interest growth of the power up to just as described in the white paper. 0,19 Percent per day when powering up. And when powering down total steem power will be turned into steem in 104 weeks. At the moment no-one wants to power up, as the interest on steem power is higher than what they lose when powering down. Making them even earn more steems even when powering down.

Smooth made a good comment about attracting new investors by trying to make steemit into more than just "blogging". But as Dan described earlier you guys are probably working around the clock to do this.

Really Ned. Resetting the interest growth to what is described in the white paper seems to me the easiest way to quickly distribute steems and give the incentive for people to power up. For the rest, I feel the free market will solve the other issues by itself.

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IMO the most important thing is to widen the appeal of the platform beyond blogging. That could be the promised marketplace, it could be adding better support and encouragement for microblogging, picture sharing, link sharing, etc.

Blogging is too narrow a market with little growth potential, and one that naturally concentrates contributions (and therefore rewards, under any rational scheme that rewards according to contribution) with a relatively small group of successful bloggers.

That is why there isn't much demand for SP right now. Introduce more visible growth potential and investors will be more interested.

It is almost as if someone who is a himself a blogger designed and built this system oblivious to the fact that most social media users and most people are not and do not want to be bloggers.

Constant tweaking of the rules, apart from its own harms, is a massive distraction from addressing the key critical issues that need to be addressed in order for this system to be viable at all. Without investors wanting to buy in, it isn't, and without much better visible growth potential investors will not want to buy in. Period.

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A huge untapped potential still exists with blogging. For instance, zerohedge would be a huge score if they moved to steem. They could get paid for every post (probably $1000s), solve their troll problem, and create a permanent record of their work in case they were attacked. It seems like it would be an easy sell for a marketing department targeting these types of users. The devs should allocate some funds towards this.

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But who ever heard of a @dantheman project that didn't involve constant tweaking of the rules?

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I'm starting to think you're a sockpuppet of mine I'm posting with in my sleep.

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I think trying to widen the appeal of the platform beyond blogging is indeed a great idea. This can attract new investors to join steemit and stabilize the steem price.

Secondly, lowering the interest on steem power should be done asap. People are powering down, simply because they earn more interest than they lose by powering down. The high growth in interest makes everyone want to power down.

This 2 measures combined together will already have a huge impact on the stability of the steem price. Many people will immediately stop powering down.

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Secondly, lowering the interest on steem power should be done asap. People are powering down, simply because they earn more interest than they lose by powering down. The high growth in interest makes everyone want to power down.

Can you explain this in more detail? Why would reducing the benefits of holding Steem Power increase demand for Steem Power?

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When reducing the earnings for powering up from 0.6% per day to 0.19% as stated in the white paper, people will have less incentive to power down. While today when powering down, the earnings of steem power is still greater than the conversion from steem power to steems. If your steem power is growing even when you power down, why would you power up?

Secondly when doing this the distribution, which is one of the goals, happens also much faster. It takes only 25 weeks to get rid of 25%. At the rate of today it would take much longer.

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Maybe the powering down rate should be tied to inflation. 1% is fine when there is 90 percent inflation but when inflation is 230 percent power down is 3% per week.

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Yes. That is a possibility. I just think that we need to get our act straight, and start following the white paper. In the white paper the system described seems sustainable.

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I agree that the "blogging only" aspect makes steemit unlike the social media it is trying to revolutionize and replace.

Most traditional social media users have a more "consumer" behaviour, rather than "producer" (content creation, i.e. blogging) behaviour; therefore hindering growth and widespread acceptance.

If it remains blogging only, as @bacchist warns we will end up with more spun content.

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THIS is exactly what I am grappling with. I'm not a blogger, why am I here?

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One word.

Commerce.

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The pervasively negative price effects of the current power downs are, I believe, an effect of having too expensive financing early on.....ie giving away too much to cheaply to early participates/investors. There may not be much to do but ride it out and hope it does not cost the survival of the project.

Edit: maybe a reduction in the 300% inflation rate will help address the issue. Though I understand the initial high inflation rate has its benefits, Steemit may not be able to afford it due to the financing miscalculation stated above.

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The only way to convince anyone to want to be a part of Steem is to make Steem's value proposition irresistible. There are many many ways of doing that. Here are a few examples of features that would make Steem a much more attractive platform:

  1. decentralized market place (already discussed, but no clear timelines so far)
  2. crowdfunding plateform
  3. allow user issued assets (tokens, gateway IOUs)
  4. diversify market pegged currencies
  5. develop the internal market to become a full fledged decentralized exchange for #3 and #4

#2 can be implemented easily on top of the existing post reward system, as explained in an earlier comment.

#3, #4 and #5 exist already in Bitshares. A merger should be considered (I am also a Bitshares holder and would be favorable to seeing a merger). If Bitshares community isn't interested by a merger, turning Bitshares into a Steem sidechain would do the trick and be mutually beneficial for both ecosystem. And if all efforts fail to negociate a deal with the Bitshares community, Steem should just move on and replicate what is good in Bitshares.

The above would help Steem to be considered as a serious crypto currency in the crypto space, and not just a flash in the pan. Since speculators are essentially coming from the crypto space, being considered a major crypto alongside Bitcoin, Monero and Ethereum is key to attracting capital.

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RE: crowdfunding

This is exactly how I've been using Steemit already. (You can read on my blog, if interested.) I think there is a lot of potential for this idea and donations don't even have to come out of someone's own pocket, so there's essentially no risk for those wanting to fund a campaign.

I really don't understand why this isn't happening more and why it's not being publicly marketed. (I've mentioned it to other powers on Steemit.) Crowdfunding here would eliminate nearly all of the problems with current crowdfunding platforms. If I had more technical knowledge and experience, I would develop this for Steemit myself. Is there anyone looking into this on the development side?

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I don't think it's a good idea to copy features from BitShares.

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And this is because .. ?

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When I first joined and read the white paper, I hoped whales would be strategic enough to act as a collusive group and avoid dumping recklessly and crush the price of steem. Now I understand that the whales, as a class not necessarily as individuals, are incredibly short sighted, opportunistic, and all too willing to kill the golden goose. I can't see how catering to them to prevent them from dumping without regard for the consequences is good for the platform long term. That basically turns this into a hostage situation.

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Some of us wouldn't mind buying more at cheaper prices.

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"cheap" is a highly subjective term, particularly if the platform offers more value and long term potential.

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What is good for the platform long term is to redistribute stake and be inclusive to new investors so it isn't so absurdly concentrated (with 1% owning 95%, and that is excluding the 'steemit' account). We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

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I agree with you there, absolutely. I just think that there is a better way of going about it than dumping it indiscriminately.

Powering down and holding some STEEM without dumping it all is something that whales could be doing to redistribute stake while preserving the value of all stakes. I don't know what it would mean to be inclusive to new investors in an atmosphere of declining prices due to overselling.

But yeah, I agree with you in principle.

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@smooth I think that's an oversimplification. Investors have to see that there is an upside and not only a downside. The price can't be low enough for an asset that will only decrease in value. The has been no history of a stable price since prior to July 4th. And there has been no history of prices increasing outside of a speculative bubble shortly after July 4th, and a bounce from Poloniex...

The platform will never attract a meaningful quantity of new investors by demonstrating that it is incapable of protecting the investments of existing investors.

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Lower prices are much better for new investors. If I'm looking to invest 10000 USD I would prefer to receive a larger amount of stake for that investment than a smaller. I would also prefer more available upside relative to my fixed (10000 USD) downside. At the earlier 400 million USD market cap the upside was much more limited than it is now (though 100 million USD is still no bargain basement price). That naturally invites more demand from investors who don't want to buy in at an inflated valuation.

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@smooth

But the problem is that the pressure is continually downward due to the power-down timeline. Powering down is a two-year schedule. If the largest stakeholders are powering down and selling their stake and this can be expected to continue for at least two years - while they continue to sell more SP from internal accumulation - does this not become a problem with consistent, large downward pressures?

If whales are indeed redistributing their stake, I would expect to see them no longer accumulating through their curating habits and to see newer users buying the SP on the market. But I don't believe that has been happening, according to the figures that are presented every week. There is selling by whales, but there doesn't appear to be the off-setting investment back into the platform by non-whales. The buying of SP is much lower and whales continue to accumulate more through curating based on their large influence.

Am I missing something? Is there an aspect to this that is just lost on me? I don't see the redistribution of influence occurring because the Steem is being dumped in large amounts on the market and being bought by investors. I see some of it being redistributed internally from curating. The actual external investing is lacking. So, I don't know how dumping on the external markets actually redistributes. So far, the only effect that it has had is driving down prices.

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@bacchist

The platform will never attract a meaningful quantity of new investors by demonstrating that it is incapable of protecting the investments of existing investors

I agree with you there. The way to do that is to make the platform better and more appealing, not by propping it up so investors enter higher and get dumped on later.

I do not agree that a low price means that it can only decline, nor that at 100 million cap, it is anywhere near that. Plenty of assets decline to a value that is a more attractive entry point then gain more investor interest, particularly if the actual value delivered by the asset is increased.

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@ats-david.

The buying of SP is much lower and whales continue to accumulate more through curating based on their large influence.

What you are missing is the increase in the money supply (aka dilution). As long as whales aren't buying back their own sales in a sham trade, it means new investors (or at least smaller investors) are accumulating it and the stake is being distributed. Curation rewards are only a tiny portion of the reward pool (currently well under 25%); it is mathematically impossible for curation rewards to offset dilution from content rewards PLUS selling. Not even close.

Currently there is an accumulation of liquid STEEM on exchanges being held either by speculators or perhaps by whales themselves, who are powering down but in fact not selling (we can't know for sure). That is unsustainable and before long that trend will stop. It is the natural evolution of a process where at one time there was 0% of the supply on exchanges (because there weren't any) and now there in approximately 2-3%.

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The price can't be low enough for an asset that will only decrease in value. The has been no history of a stable price since prior to July 4th. And there has been no history of prices increasing outside of a speculative bubble shortly after July 4th, and a bounce from Poloniex...

Lower prices are much better for new investors. If I'm looking to invest 10000 USD I would prefer to receive a larger amount of stake for that investment than a smaller. I would also prefer more available upside relative to my fixed (10000 USD) downside.

I agree with @smooth here. I remember first finding out about bitcoin when it was around $30 and saw it shoot to $45 by the time I could get accounts set up to buy. I had strong FOMO. It was a bit disheartening to see the price eventually fall to $2, but I'm glad I still saw potential in it and had the opportunity to increase my stake at lower prices with a lot higher potential upside.

I've only recently found out about Steem and see its potential. I still think it has a lot of improvement before it gains traction and see the current phase as a reality check on the initial exuberance, just like the long fall of bitcoin to $2 before eventually gaining traction.

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I think one who decided to leave won't do any good in terms of curation and @nextgencrypto probably is a good example of this.

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You are ignorant and should ideally refrain from insulting one of your largest investors who also happens to be (and always has been) heavily involved in initiatives that support and promote Steem. Unlike you, I happen to be aware of his involvement with both sponsoring the Steemcleaners team and the Curie project (which is specifically curation, since you mentioned it). I don't know what else he might be doing. Your comment is entirely off base and inappropriate.

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props for not flagging, although that might be considered slander...

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@nextgencrypto is powering down for a long time, I don't see how he is investing in Steem. How come he became our largest investor? I can only see how he is monetizing on our work.

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@ned and @dantheman are both powering down. Are they investing in Steam? Have they decided to leave?

I already explained some of the ways he has invested and is investing in Steem. I see him on steemit.chat every single day working with abuse and curation teams that he is both funding and working on directly. The list was not complete. Since you know none of this, you continue to speak out of ignorance, which helps no one, most notably, yourself.

Kindly refrain from inappropriately flagging my comments because they call you out on your ignorance.

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I'm not following political debates closely but as far as I remember nextgen decided to leave back in June not agreeing with dev team on curation rewards, so he started powering down a long be before any other whales.
Anyway calling nexgen largest investor shows your ignorance and this is why I flagged your comment.

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calling nexgen largest investor

Please refrain from misquoting me

"one of your largest investors"

The intent is to reward uses as well as receive rewards for content. I don't see how losing stake weight by powering down helps at all. This means that everyone will either power down and say "forget it, I'm not going to participate anymore because I'm obligated to keep my STEEM POWER up in order to have an influence on voting" or fewer and fewer people will power down (which I don't see happening, as the intent of this is to earn money and still be able to cash out). Users shouldn't be punished for withdrawing their earnings. I think the 104 weeks alone for powering down is fine.

Big whales from dev teams need to stop powering down and selling, that's the only way that gather the confidence of people again. Otherwise, more and more people will leave.

I think both ideas are great, please implement both of them. The loss of voting power for powering down is amazing, and the voting pool is needed very badly to increase interest from new users, and users who have a good reputation but no voting power.

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Wait a minute... are more than 80% of big SP holders powering down?

Stop the madness... is this why the price is going down? Noooo, it couldn't be...

Wait.... could we make powering down at this stage less attractive and force those powering down to distribute significantly more to others?

No, no... it sounds too good to be true...

Wait that's exactly what this proposal will solve. Why should people powering down receive the same benefits as those not? If you power down you're out, why should you have any influence on Steemit?

Why would an investor get involved when the amount of liquid Steem released is being increased at a compounded rate per week? If you want out now, go for it, just know that you'll be penalised for it and SP holders will be rewarded.

Tragedy of the commons.

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If you power down you are NOT OUT! Not by a 2 year long shot! That's the major and critical difference between steem and the rest of the crypto world! You cannot just pump and dump steem! If you buy it, you are invested in the future for steemit.

The whales are not selling out by powering down! They're getting paid for investing! Why would anybody invest in anything if not to get paid?!

I hope I never have enough money to invest in an initiative that helps people with less money than me because witnessing this entitlement and lack of gratitude is too disheartening. No wonder the wealthiest people in the world only look out for themselves.

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If you find that you are in danger of having too much money send it to me.

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Lol, no problem I'll send you $100 to write something for me and then you can act ungrateful and entitled by trying to lock me into a contract that forces me to pay you $100 every week to participate in a game of I give you money for content.

That makes having money a very attractive idea. I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't.

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Entitlement and lack of gratitude? I don't think so....

That wasn't my intention I was merely stating a few fundamentals given the context of a market and new investors wanting to get in. It's a very risky investment when you know that the amount of liquid stock is increasing at a compounded rate.

When we're looking at what was a 3-400 million dollar market cap the investors will need to have institutional size.

They'll look at the structure and immediately flag it in their heads as not having 'liquidity' and question why all the large holders are exiting. It's just common sense.

I may have been a bit theatrical to make a point. However the game theory of the proposals makes a lot of sense in the long run.

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...and question why all the large holders are exiting. It's just common sense.

It's really shocking to me that nobody here seems to understand this or wants to actually acknowledge it. Nobody is going to invest if the initial investors are dumping Steem before the platform is even out of beta testing and is sustainable. Maybe it isn't common sense?

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I apologise @wingz that comment wasn't really directed at you but at everybody on this thread arguing that whales should not be powering down.

If whales are to be "locked in" by any means more than the 2 years they already are, would discourage anybody else who might otherwise wish to participate.

Somebody else here said it already but if the system can't hold itself while whales power down then the system doesn't work.

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Is your thinking that given the choice of powering down and voting, the whales would choose to power down instead of vote, and hence whale voting would be eliminated entirely from the eco-system?

Do whales actually make a lot of money from curation? If they don't (and I think the rewards have dropped from the early days), then they'll simply continue to power down, so the selling pressure on steem will remain.

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Depends how they vote right. Smooth made 3000 sp last week, dantheman made 700 and donkeypong made 100 (all estimates). Just some random whales I chose but just check their curation rewards if you're curious.

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If you are asking a whale to choose between powering down for $20,000 a week, and staying powered up to earn $3000 a week, they'll choose the former.

So there won't be a let up on the selling pressure on steem (and the whole idea behind the proposal was that it would stop them selling - but it won't).

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Some are voting to make money while others are not. If you have a lot of SP, then you make money voting anyway. But much of my voting has been upclicking Project Curie's chosen posts and following AFTER whale votes to add a few more dollars for those deserving posters. One can use votes to make money or to help allocate it to others.

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Damn man.... you hit it right on the head, @craig-grant I do agree with you fine sir! do it @ned before the weekend, you know its a solid move.

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That is his flow..... :)

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yes, this is my flow, honesty and transparency is true freedom

First of all, I want to thank Ned for putting these ideas out for community feedback. One of the reasons I disagreed so strongly with the 5 vote idea (in another recent proposal) was that it was being included already in a pending release. Making us an offer we can't refuse is a shitty way to run a community; asking for community feedback is much better. Kudos to you for that.

However, I find it rather disingenuous for you to mega-upvote the first comment that fully agrees with your ideas in this post, since they are meant to provoke an open discussion. (EDIT: You downsized it, which I think is appropriate.)

I think your first idea may have some merit; I need to learn about it more. Curation seems to be working well, from what I can see. Project Curie is discovering and rescuing many worthy authors from total obscurity. I think the site is trending in the right direction with more intensive efforts to find and reward undiscovered and deserving posters.

Maybe the curation pool you describe would help. If so, I would like to learn more.

I do not like the power down penalty, mostly for the reasons that @smooth has discussed in his responses. Not only would it hurt large accounts' ability to curate, but it also would freeze Steemit's redistribution. As @smooth has described, allowing big whale accounts to sell their Steem is really the most efficient means of redistributing Steem to new holders. I might be OK with some movement in the direction of perhaps some "fee" for Powering Down often (if this was needed to address some problem), but I think that penalizing Powering Down in any severe way will hurt Steemit by making redistribution and curation nearly impossible.

Can't we work on developing these other pillars of the ecosystem to help create more demand for Steem, rather than trying to control its use?

I think loss of voting influence for powering down is fair!

I'm pretty new so I'm not sure I understand the voting pool idea. Would I transfer SD to @steemit for example and then my would get a boost in voting power? Or how would it work?

I fail to see how this will increase demand for steem... It seems more like it would discourage new users from signing up. SP is already locked for 2 years, which is probably the biggest reason people don't want to be locked in as there is no guarantee steemit will even be around 2 years from now... and now adding more of a drag when you take away curation rewards... makes it likely the move will do the opposite of what it is intended to do

I agree there should be a cost to powering down a stake. During the distribution phase I can see why many people are powering down. There should be disincentives to this.

Maybe even a reduction in the % of Vests that accrue SP?

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a troll got to you, upvoted.

If you value the observations of an outsider...

or and are curious what someone with new eyes sees coming in here...

Ive been watching and learning for about a week. I love what is going on here. And its not just because of the potential to make bits of $ here and there. In all honesty the $ is secondary. At least for me. This place is pure. And raw. Its different, and moving in the opposite direction from the increasingly corporate internet.

But is it possible that what you need most right now to raise value and incentive is not found on the block chain, but in the human element? A healthy, vibrant community cant be built by game theory and incentives alone. That takes people who focus on that aspect intentionally. Not block chain developers, social developers.

sounds like good idea , but i will be left out coz of my reputation score . please note that i have no posts or comments been voted down , used to be (5) before the reputation feature update. something wrong with my account it might be a bug !!! i dont kno.

Why no mention about diversifying steem power contract term?
https://github.com/steemit/steem/issues/330

Ppl don't buy steem power because of 104 weeks term.

Pretty good ideas.

I curate content by going through the "new" section, each day. If I had more SP this would help get people more payouts. But I don't just upvote anything... hehe...

The Power Down is interesting. I Power Down and then Power Up with the STEEM I get. I read a post a week or two ago saying this increases the SP I get... So I do it. I don't cash out with the Steem.

I support the changes either way. It seems like a good way to incentivise people to certain behavior.

Take care. Peace.

Great idea.
With this more peaple would be able to get knownd.
And the Power down idea is also a great idea, so peaple would hold steem and not power down.

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Tanks. Why did this guy downvote this?

Very pleased that the system develops. I express my deep gratitude to people like you!!!

Agree ! Powering down will effect the voting power , this the most brilliant idea so far from you @ned .

I completely agree with you ned. But it's not as easy as it seems. It may conflict with other people.

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look at the interest of the people opposing imho. if you listen to the community, the right answer is right there. you have the hivemind of a ton of GREAT PEOPLE here. It would be a pity to not use it...

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I think we should create a Poll to get a quantitative response from the community.

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Thanks, I got scared for a minute :)

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Upvoted in recognition of anti-troll patrol

How would you find curators and guarantee they wouldn't be trolls?

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upvotes becuase you got flagged by a troll

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The pool can be organized having the follow list as a median....

Some Good Ideas Here
Keep On Steeming
I Am Still A little New
Learning The ropes
Meeting Nice People Here
Will Stay Tuned

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upvoted because you got flagged by a troll

I think the voting pool idea makes a lot of sense and seems like a better approach than the current system.

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upvoted because you got flagged by a troll

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upvoted because you got flagged by a troll

Hi Ned I think allowing steem holders to delegate their steem power is a great idea, what would you think about minimizing the number of votes individuals can make so the worth increases ?
edit another thought was to include a star rating system so that users can rate the post quality instead of upvoting then upvotes can be used for really good stuff

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what would you think about minimizing the number of votes individuals can make so the worth increases?

My understanding is the upcoming voting power change has this effect. You will now have the option to make your vote worth 8x as much.

If you can currently place 40 votes worth $0.10 each, with this hardfork, each day you'll be able to place:

  • 40 votes worth $0.10 (at 12.5% slider power).
  • 20 votes worth $0.20 (at 25% power).
  • 10 votes worth $0.40 (at 50% power).
  • 5 votes worth $0.80 (at 100% power).
  • Almost any other vote combination worth a total of $4.00.
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absolutely false.

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That's not an argument. Care to elaborate?

And i think somone have to look of the not show coments and finaly make something about ................. spam flags ???

I fully agree with the powering down losing voting influence. That would prevent people who're just here trying to cash out from being able to affect the platform very much if they want their money. If they want to have more influence, they'll have to keep their money invested! :)

As far as the voting pools go, I think it's a great idea too, but you hit the nail on the head. It could be used negatively and people could sell positions or influence.

To be honest though, anything you do to alter the platform will be seen as a double-edged blade by the community, as there will always be some who dislike it altogether as well as the people who love it.

Keep up the great work regardless, it's honestly just nice to see your involvement in things and that you're dedicated to making positive changes or listening to the community!

Similar to a voting pool (but a little different) you could allow users to delegate percentages of their voting power to individual users and split the curation rewards with them.

It would allow users with a lot of SP who may not have the time or ability to curate well to have a good curator do the work for them, and it would allow good curators who may not have a lot of SP to get better rewards for good curation work.

You're right, but lets reward for stake independent of powering down.

That's exactly what I wrote just a few hours ago

Why we just have to observe helplessly what is going on? Why we don't have some sort of "Internal Market for Voting Delegation" ?
One example : mine weekly curation rewards are about 0.3%. Someone can make 3%. Why can't I delegate mine SP to someone for better rewards?
Second example : some group of people suggests - let's create a "yoga- whale".
We can't promise high rewards, we just want every good article about yoga to get some good reward. Why can't I delegate some SP for that project ?
Granted, we don't know, what will happen. Maybe all the people will delegate all the power to just a few Super-Mega-Whales, making power distribution even more uneven that it's now - but that would be people's choice .

I don't see how further limiting authors access to the money they've earned will help incentivize the platform. I'm not as smart as Ned though...

I think the idea of Powered Down accounts losing their voting power is a good one. This would have an impact of slowing down distribution, however it would support the price of Steem which would result in many users feeling far more positive about Steemit in the short to medium term...

Commitment should be rewarded.

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Another option to reward commitment would be to give bonus voting power to those not powering down.

  • The longer you go without powering down, the larger your voting bonus.
  • Start a power down and you lose all or part of your bonus.

I think this option would do much more to encourage power-ups. Thought I'd throw it out there, it's something to consider.

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I saw it after I posted a similar answer.Of course I like it!

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this should be higher!

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This already exists. The longer you participate in a meaningful way, the more SP you earn in the form of rewards and the higher your influence becomes. Rewarding people for time alone effectively penalizes active involvement.

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That's true, but is rewarding meaningful participation enough of an incentive? I don't know.

Also, in this scenario, you wouldn't be effectively penalized for active involvement if you are also holding SP long-term.

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Commitment should be rewarded.

I agree with this statement but right now we are discussing how to penalize no-commitment!
So maybe it would be better to make a proposal that rewards the accounts that don't power-down

What if the steemit account votes equally for ALL NOT POWERED DOWN witnesses ;)

If powering down stake loses voting influence

for the same reason...
"if NOT powering down stake GAIN more voting influence!"

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That's a much better way of putting it. Kudos @liodani

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commitment should be rewarded: bingo.
one way to notice is that is in number of "comments" and total posts. When i see someone with thousands in each post but like 200 post total[ that includes comments ] that's not commitment, that's someone with the hand DEEP into the honey pot.

It is real nice when both dan and ned down vote each others stupid ideas.
I really think that!!! The ideas of ned presented here, in the form presented are crazy as hell! So they deserve dan's down vote.
So was dan's idea of changes to the S(B)D ... which ned down voted!

Nice to read that improvements on the way or at least discussed because the voting system as it is frustrates me. I am collecting my few steem$$ every day and power up and up cent by cent because I believe in this platform on a long term. I also spend it back into steemit (radiosteem, rewards , promotion etc ...) and don't cash out a dime. I collected 420 so far. Never saw a whale, maybe a couple of times. I suggest to spread all your "power" with more fairness . Power down might be a good solution but not sure if you don't want to upset the investors. I like your first proposal. Whatever it is, find something because your loyal believers and members with good reputation but no SP will let you down otherwise very soon, thinking steemit is a scam. You should find ways that more people sign up and happy to stay.

Hi @ned, here's a simple idea to boost the value of Steem Power for smaller stakeholders: website perks such as avatars.

https://steemit.com/steem-ideas/@demotruk/website-perks-for-steem-power

Allow Steem holders to delegate their Steem Power voting rights to a voting pool

That's precisely what I proposed to you 5 months ago, and that you didn't bother reading / reverting about, like the other half a dozen structured proposal I made to avoid name squatting, account farming, spamming, plagiarism etc. You are going to say I should stop acting like I knew everything and pulling the occasional "I told you so" stunt over and over again.

But goddammit @ned, yet again you are coming up with a "new" idea that you could have implemented months ago had you paid more attention to what the early community was warning you about.

Anyway, I'm just jaded I guess. Patiently waiting for you to have "new ideas" about everything else I and other early Steemers told you already including name squatting, account farming (that's still ongoing) and the fact only invite-based referral should be subsidized etc. At least I'm glad you have these great flash of insight eventually, even if somewhat of a deja-vu for everyone else who has been paying attention.

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I can relate with this... I posted about the voting pools as guilds three weeks ago; no disincentives for powering down four weeks ago; and a variable power up/down function four weeks ago as well.

Am I ahead of the curve or just irrelevant ? :)

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I think Dan & Ned are inculcated a lot and are too busy to realize the ideas they express may not entirely be their own. ;)

I think it will always be like a typical freemium game. Most users (95%) never monetize, and have lower engagement on average. What gives them power and distributes it away from those with great engagement/power/monetization is the collective power of the minnows.

A strong focus on enabling a larger user base I think should be a primary goal, and by enabling I mean:

  • Marketing, spreading the word
  • Careful awareness and management of user expectations and incentives to keep in line with game theory & psychology.
  • Streamlining the user interface. Not that its bad now, but there are always usability improvements that could happen. Small annoyances can kill a product.
  • Enable third parties to create alternative front ends so users can go to whatever interface they find most palatable.
  • Focus on great mobile platform support/integration. Curation is easy to do while you're sitting in a Dr.'s office, at lunch, on the toilet. Authoring is hard to do on a phone. If I could post a single photo of something I experience it doesn't mean it is poor content, though such a post would likely do poorly at present as there is a tendency to focus on quality = quantity it seems.
  • Make it easy to join. I have several friends who can't until the SMS feature is available.

With a user base an order of magnitude larger I think the sum of a ton of minnow votes will collectively provide the incentive it should and the wealth distribution be less of a factor.

Anyway, just spitballing ideas.

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"Careful awareness and management of user expectations and incentives to keep in line with game theory & psychology."

Exactly...the system is good...there is a PR problem in the Expectations Department

The only account that can effectively power down to sell steem and not be penalized would be @steemit. What if I wanted to power down to continuously buy SBD but am not leaving the eco-system? I'm not saying that the idea isn't without merit, but I would rather see more incentive to POWER UP as opposed to disincentives for POWERING DOWN.

For instance, one could have discounts on promoted content if paid for in STEEM POWER.

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A market for Steem tokens that become locked like with the @null account sounds like a solid idea to me.

Besides this idea for curation pools, have you considered allowing for author groups or guilds?

The guild would be there to allow for proofreading and research from separate parties that would all get a slice of the authors tip reward. This would definitely encourage high quality content.

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I love this post. I think it is a great idea. There has to be a way to hack it until it is built into the steem platform.

This is my first day here on Steemit. I've watched steemit in the last 3 weeks. I see one great debate here and I'm trying to undestand how much I can...Please don't tell me that Steemit is about to collapse exactly when I've decided to try it!

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Not collapsing my friend :) Steemit is only a few months old, it is still a baby learning to walk, it will fall sometimes but it will learn and grow big one day, beyond everyone's expectations.

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Growing pains.

But don't be fooled. Existential threats to long term success are always dancing around. Plenty of people would love to see Steem spontaneously combust into a ball of fire, if for no other reason than to gloat over the corpse.

Bitcoin Maximalists like Tone Vays for example.

@ned glad you're thinking about these things, though I generally agree with @smooth (1 could be interesting, 2 is a bad idea).

The big thing that Synereo and others are thinking about to disrupt Steem is more "fairly" distributing rewards to good content creators. If they do this, then they've got a shot. If Steem continually improves at this to the point where the majority of good content creators feel they're adequately rewarded, I don't think Synereo has a shot.

I like that this is all being thought about. My favorite part is where it would be clear that when you power down, that SP loses its voting power. I also like that you would be able to designate a certain percentage of SP to power down. Right now I think it's an all or nothing deal. When powering down becomes relevant to me, I would like to be able to only power down some of my SP.

I know this might sound simplistic, but I think if you focus on the ingredients of happiness, you will find your answer. Making steemit a place that people don't want to leave is the key. I have some ideas that I'm working on.....

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"don't want to leave"

...but not disincentivised to leave.

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How about "incentivized to stay" instead ?

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Shouldn't be any need as long as it takes 2 years to get out. How about improve the platform?

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