Suggestions on how we can improve Steem.
Thank you for your apology SteemCleaners.
Here is a summary of suggestions based on my experience:
Warn someone before blacklisting them. Especially, if you are reprimanding someone for voting for someone else who did something wrong. They may not be aware that they have done anything wrong by voting for someone else.
A tagged comment on their blog would likely suffice.Give them notice when you blacklist them so that they know they've been blacklisted. (In case they are away, for example.)
A tagged comment on their blog would likely suffice.Have a "Waiting Room" in SteemCleaners that directs new-comers and provides them with information. Information such as: What it means to be blacklisted, the reasons why this has happened, and what the next steps are(specific guidelines). This information should be organized according to the type of blacklisting the member received, as the information will likely differ.
I've noted this because you cannot reprimand people for not doing the right thing to appeal a blacklist if there are no instructions or the instructions are inaccurate or unclear. This is simply not just.Amended 2020 03 03 It turns out that the reporting system does ask for the username of the person reporting. You can see it here: https://steemcleaners.com/reports I am glad to see that it asks for a username. I am hopeful that usernames aren't being created purely to report individuals. That is possible considering how many bot accounts are created each and every day. There are some very malicious individuals on Steem. From my understanding, it is the mack-bot which doesn't always work. Sometimes like in my case, it flags someone for voting for someone flagged for abuse thinking that individual has perhaps been hacked, or is working in collusion with an abuser. I still am extremely uncomfortable with the whole "guilty until you advocate for your innocence" system, especially given how it does publicly brand innocent people as abusers. This makes me uncomfortable. How many cases are like mine? How many people don't go and advocate for themselves? How many good people are we driving away from Steem?
Just as offenders are held accountable for their actions, so should the accusers be. The person programming the Mack-bot is responsible for the innocent people it attacks. It's something she should consider. I believe the solution here is to not use a Mack-bot to try and find abusers after the fact. Rather, we should petition to stop all auto-voting. Perhaps, this would lead to fewer mistakes.It is not logical to hold people responsible for the behavior of others. People are not omniscient, they cannot know everything the other person does, their intent, or what they may do in the future. They can only use their best judgment when voting a post or comment. Expecting people to spend intensive amounts of time researching posts, and their authors is not realistic. It also doesn't allow people to vote within the curation window to receive the best rewards.
All this promotes is people voting for old users(regardless of the quality of their content), as the new users have no had the time or resources to establish a reputation yet(again regardless of the quality of their content). If no one votes for a new user's quality content, that content will have greatly reduced visibility. That new user will also have difficulty finding new followers.
This approach keeps small accounts small and large accounts large. It promotes old users. If we want to grow Steem it is imperative that this be revisited and changes be implemented.If the concern here is vote farming, then as much as I loved using SteemAuto, I would suggest that all auto voting be stopped. Where is that line really? What if you are trading votes with 20-30(or more) other people using an auto voter. Is this not in essence, also "vote-farming"? Especially, if this is being done with large accounts. In my opinion, vote farming is vote farming, big or small. Running a "circle-jerk" with your "friends" using auto voters is also vote farming. It is not voting on any specific post. It is not voting based on an analysis of that post, nor the quality of that post. We have to ask ourselves, do we want to promote quality content or not? If we do, then we need to put an end to all types of vote farming.
I think we need to seriously reconsider expanding the curation(reward) window for quality content. Some posts are long(text). There is simply no way to read all of these posts in under 2 minutes. Does this mean that longer quality posts don't deserve rewards? Certainly not. I think we want to be promoting such content. The small curation(reward) window promotes primarily smaller text posts or photography.
If apps and services are exploiting users then we must have a list of safe services and apps. How will new users navigate Steem without such a list? This is important to protect the reputation of Steem both within Steem, and outside of Steem. The reputation of Steem directly affects the value of Steem.
Apologize if you do something wrong. People shouldn't have to ask or beg or wait for apologies. An apology, especially right at the beginning can go a long long way. I understand that sometimes mistakes are made. We are all human after all. But can we own up to our mistakes? Especially, if we expect other people to own up to theirs? Shouldn't we be leading by example?
Thank you for taking my suggestions into consideration.
An update for my account:
I have turned off all auto-voting(for the aforementioned reasons).
I have also unfollowed everyone.
Why? Because, I don't know for sure if everyone I was following was "good". I can't follow some and unfollow others without it seeming personal to those I unfollow. I have no personal issue with anyone I was following.
Why does it matter? I wouldn't want to be perceived as somehow "cooperating or working with" anyone who might be unbeknownst to me be doing something shady, or who might do something shady in the future, or who might be accused of doing something shady in the future. (As stated above, I have no control over other people's actions or intentions, but if I can be punished for voting for someone who is bad (or may in the future be deemed "bad") then I have to take this extra measure to protect myself and my reputation.
I will also no longer vote for comments on my blog. I was voting comments as a thank you for the support, but I can't continue for the aforementioned reasons(for fear of being blacklisted).
If you are curious, as to what prompted all of this, here is a link to the original issue:
https://steemit.com/steemcleaners/@akiroq/my-spaminator-blacklist
-Akiroq
Image by mohamed Hassan from Pixabay
@justinsunsteemit
Update 2020-03-03:
I dedicated time to create this post. I gave it a lot of thought and consideration. I also believe that people should not be punished for expressing valid points with constructive criticism. These bots downvoted this post. They all voted for the same exact same witnesses :
arcange
puncakbukit
themarkymark
This really stood out to me. I reported them to SteemCleaners, because in my opinion, this is abuse. Their response is below. I've taken care to screen capture and document everything so that people can see for themselves and come to their own conclusions. I can only share my perspective.
Source: Ginabot
Source: Ginabot
Source: Ginabot
Source: Ginabot
Source: Discord
The thing is, I am not here to attack anyone. I am here to advocate for myself and others like me. I am here to fight for justice.
I'd like to see Steem improve. I really would.
I'm including another update from a conversation that started yesterday. I hope it provides a different perspective.
Source: Discord
Two things to note here: Mack-bot does not publish reports on the blockchain. For the sake of accountability of Mack-bot and its developers, I believe this is something that needs to change. Especially since mistakes have been made (like in my case). We have a right to know what they are doing. How many people are there like me? These are all questions to ponder.
Here is a screenshot of my response:
Source: Discord
In case that is too small for your to read, let me paste my response here:
Thank you for your response
I wasn't following any trails exactly for that reason. How would I know who I was voting for? Instead, I created an autovote list for the time(s) I was away. But, I didn't do it lightheartedly. I researched the people and their posts. I also asked a veteran member of Steem to go through that list with me to double-check it and make sure I didn't miss anything. I spent days on that list, and the other member spent an entire half day of their time double checking it. I sincerely did make my best effort to choose people who are/were good!
While I was away, I did check my Ginabot on discord. I didn't see anything. Obviously, according to SteemCleaners/Mack-bot, I missed something somewhere.
It still seems a bit crazy to me that I was blacklisted for something someone else did. Either another account I voted for, or the person who programmed Mack-bot.
I did my due diligence. Beyond that I can't and won't be held responsible for what other people do. How is that just? Seriously, how is that fair?
I have to wonder how many other people this has happened to who didn't advocate for themselves to prove their innocence.
I understand to some degree why you're doing this. But, I personally believe it is much more effective to be proactive. To take measures to prevent the problem from happening in the first place. The logical place for me to start would be to petition to stop all auto-voting. This would eliminate people accidentally voting for known offenders, especially now that they have flags beside their names. If a rule were to be implemented that no auto-voting is allowed, it would be easier to find offenders and bots.
At this point, I am not using an auto-voter anymore. I am not following anyone anymore. I am not voting anyone anymore. This is where this all puts me.
It's important for me to share another side to this, another perspective. I hope Steem will improve.
Thank you.
Manual vote. 100% for the afromentioned issues. I hope they can seriously take your suggestion in to consideration.
On the side note, the curation window were set that way was due to the agreement within the witnesses. That however, we can see a lot of circle jerking and vote farming within the top paying witnesses. So, ask them to stop voting each other to get high payout seems like the hardest protest could ever imagine.
And don't vote comment anymore even if you can. The 20steem penalty makes everything shrink if the payout is less than 20 steem, so voting on a comment that pays out less than 20 steem, you'll be getting less curation reward despite voting the same amount of RC and VP.
Last but not least, I followed you. Please follow me back 😂😂😂 ok that didn't came up right. I was just coming over to tell you finally I get rid of a pair of my sports shoes, and I did not allow myself to buy more 😂
Posted using Partiko Android
I can't see a way around enforcing manual voting. Autovoting promotes and enables a lot of things that are very destructive to Steem.
The curation window needs to be changed. It's unreasonable. This is not enough time to properly look at a post. What this tiny curation window incentivizes is "mindless" voting. Voting for the sake of voting, or voting for profit. Voting for profit will inevitably degrade the quality of the content here on Steem. If we want Steem to thrive me should have a vested interest in promoting quality content.
For me, voting a supportive comment was paramount to "basic etiquette". It was culturally appropriate for me to do so. I was being polite. The idea that we are somehow punished for voting on a comment or post that pays out less than 20 Steem is outrageous. If that is what is culturally, morally appropriate for me to do, then it should be fine. Also, when we look at things in terms of promoting a sense of community, this type of rule is completely counterintuitive. I personally believe that interacting with people who interact with me is what forges bonds, and a sense of community between us all. From my perspective such actions unify us all.
And yes, since I unfollowed everyone yesterday, and made this post people have been unfollowing me in droves.
But what can I do? I was accused of colluding with "the enemy" because I voted the wrong person and possibly followed the wrong person. Having not been given further information as to who the guilty parties were, I don't personally feel I am left with any other choice. As much as I want to look out for the interests of others, I must also act in my best interest, I must protect myself and my reputation.
Hahaha @ the shoes comment. I still am a minimalist and only own two pairs of shoes. Sandals and shoes. XP
Have a great day @davidke20. Thanks for taking the time to read and leave some feedback. The 20Steem rule was new for me. I had no idea.
And therefore, I rather GIVE steem as a gift than VOTE !tip
Trololol
Thanks for the tip @davidke20
That's a great idea, I like it. However, could it potentially lead to blacklisting as well? I have to wonder, since not everything here is logical(unfortunately). I will look into tipu. I'm really on the fence right now as to whether or not I want to stay. I hate the way I was treated.
I've already got past that stage. Whether or not steem will survive is another story. I liked the people I'm dealing with, even the people I hate, I like. More like I liked to hate them or I hated that I like them 😂 there are assholes whom always being huge bullies, @steemcleaners is one of them. From what I see, you're probably not being in the crossfire, but bark up the wrong tree. It could be @akiraq and they shoot at the wrong person 😂 take a chill pill. Enjoy the people surrounding us, forget about the idiots. Let's see what the new government is going to do
!popcorn !shop
I'm hopeful that with the new changes, there will be changes for the better. I should stick it out to see what happens next. Townhall meeting is: tentatively set for Wednesday, March 4th at 9 pm PST. I am interested to see what will happen next. We all have a vested interest in improving the value of Steem.
No, I don't necessarily "hate" anyone, but I do hate injustice. Whether by accident or on purpose, branding someone guilty like that is just not right. It just isn't.
I don't think I am "off" at all in what I have said. Everything I said was based on what was said to me in response to my questions(or public knowledge). I didn't just pull these things out of a hat. I don't think I am "barking up the wrong tree".
In my culture, being told to take a "chill pill" when addressing something serious and advocating for change(for the better) can be viewed as an insult to a person's intellect. I will assume that was not your intention. I will assume you are trying to instill "hope" and telling me you have faith that things will work out.
Yeah, we can all bring our popcorn on the 4th. But seriously, I hope very much for some positive change. I know it is possible!
Thanks @davidke20!
Ah... Pardon my Engrish. I meant THEY barked at the wrong tree 😂
And, the chill pill think, got no intention of insult at all. Was just going to ask you to chill it out 😁
To me, any change is a change, good or bad. In the end, it's just powers fighting against power, and we the crypto civilian are taking the toll regardless. Who allows the curation windows dropped to 15mins, and then 5? The top 20. Who proposed to cut the power down to 4 weeks? Again the top 20. Now with the new top 20(or 20 in one) deciding to down to 24 hours 😂 My guess is, they are(or he is) going to fork first, talk later! Apologize on the wrong expression. Engrish too powderful😅
Ah yes, I was in no mood to be trifled with when I discovered I had been blacklisted. Haha. They likely would have thought twice about doing it if they had known me a bit better. I won't let people treat me like that.
Thank you, I understand now. Yes, English is a difficult language, I agree. It is also my second language. There is a lot of slang. It can be very confusing.
Yes, the top 20 have a lot of power. I wish we all had more say. I think many of us have valuable input. But few care to listen. I am hoping that will change. It is no accident that we are sitting at 17 cents.
Thank you @davidke20
Hi~ akiroq!
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Are you bored? Play Rock,Paper,Scissors game with me!SHOPPlease go to steem-engine.com.I don't know what this is @davidke20. Is this new? I have never seen it before.
🎁 Hi @akiroq! You have received 0.1 STEEM tip from @davidke20!
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steemcleaners does a lot of good but they are humans, they're not always going to get things right and these are some solid suggestions. Maybe narrow their scope for abuse on the chain and double down on that instead of moving into areas that are more murky until there is a definitive strategy on how to handle it.
I downvote mostly on reward farming with bid bots and plagiarism. Circle jerks are a bit harder since they all agreed to vote up one another its still in a grey area
The idea of SteemCleaners is viable. We do need to keep Steem safe. It is the execution and policies I take issues with. Especially #5, which is what I was blacklisted for. Voting for a post or comment of an abuser(who I did not know was an abuser).
From my perspective, I feel as though what happened to me was deplorable. It should not have happened and it certainly could have been handled better. I am left with many unanswered questions. Particularly, why I was suddenly blacklisted after more than 2 months of inactivity! The whole thing struck me as being very strange.
When I visited the SteemCleaners Discord to advocate for myself and appeal my blacklisting I also took some time to go back through their chat. I observed how people were spoken to, how they were treated. In my honest opinion, I found some of it to be unnecessarily abrupt, rude, unprofessional, and culturally insensitive. I am a firm believer in leading by example. Especially, especially in such circumstances.
Circle-Jerks were a bit of a grey area for me too. That is until I took a step back and looked at the bigger picture.
In my opinion, when people vote based on how much profit they can get in return, when they collude with others to get return votes, this is vote farming.
I can dress it up pretty by saying I am just voting for nice people, my friends, and/or people I trust. But, the fact is, if I do that, I am not voting on the quality or content of the actual post. Then, I am voting for people and for profit.
When I look at the bigger picture, what I was doing, using and auto voter, was not helping Steem. I was in a small way contributing to the problem.
If I want to increase the actual value of what is available on Steem, I need to vote based on quality. Yes, granted that will make things more difficult and time-consuming. It will also decrease any earnings I receive under the current system.
The more I look at this and the more I think about this, the more I am convinced that Auto Voters need to go. I know a lot of people are going to hate me for saying that, but I see no other way.
One thing I have to say I do really like is the new flagging beside usernames. I think that this is a good idea. But, it is imperative that the flag is earned. No one should have the power to arbitrarily flag people.
Yes, in the end it is very difficult to implement a system or procedure to prevent and deal with abuse. It certainly requires a lot of forethought. What are the repercussions? What will this promote? In the long term, will this help or harm Steem? Is there a better way?
Thank you for taking the time to read and comment @chekohler. There is certainly a lot to think about here.
You were probably blacklisted a long time ago and just never knew it. It's this new (software) version they just implemented that shows the red (1) next to your name that now makes it into a "scarlet letter".
Marky's pushing for a "grand-unified-master-blacklist" across all the major front-ends.
Details here,
https://steemit.com/sps/@themarkymark/global-blacklist-api-proposal#@themarkymark/q6fmzx
Still, it would have been nice to receive a warning. It would also have been nice to have received a notification when I was blacklisted. This is my reputation we are talking about after all.
I think the flag has the potential to be useful. But, I can't stress enough that it must be earned. It must be justified. It can't just be handed out arbitrarily!
I was not aware that there was/is a global blacklist. I think this is a superb idea.
I really feel like an orientation package should be made available to new users.
Such as: A list of safe apps and services. What is acceptable and what isn't (especially when some things are not obvious, or may not be thought of as something wrong, or are perhaps not logical).
When I first came here I was like a fish out of the water. I found everything difficult to navigate. Not because it was actually difficult, but because there was no guide, or direction.
Thanks for sharing the black-list with me. This is the first time I have heard about it.
@logiczombie
Of course it sounds like a good-idea, but these are just a bunch of self-appointed yahoos who can make exceptions for themselves and their friends at will and enforce their opinions on the rest of us with capricious and tyrannical abandon.
If the blacklists were controlled by the witnesses exclusively, then at least we'd sort of get a "vote", and we could advocate for a transparent appeals process that included some "innocent until proven guilty" procedures along with a standardized "road-to-redemption" for those found "guilty".
Yes, absolutely the rules must apply to everyone equally. Anything else is unacceptable.
Yes, and an innocent until proven guilty would be much more "humane".
Especially if it isn't immediately clear what the "offense" was, or may have been, or what to do about it.
The humiliation of publicly shaming people can't be good for morale. And publicly shaming people who are innocent? Simply unacceptable. It's unacceptable!
@logiczombie
It's weird . Steemit encourages you to build networks and communities but when you upvote the same person alot then it's circle jerking. I have my closest people in here on auto in case I miss a post and it automatically upvotes them . I see nothing wrong with that as they are the reason I am in here. All this stuff turns me away from the platform and attracts me to the others . Voice for example are in beta . There is no auto voting. Great. No bots. Great . So noone can break the rules without knowing. Why can't Steemit do this
Or, just decline payouts (like me!) that's all they really care about anyway (protecting their precious-magical-reward-pool-pie).
Yeah, this was the other thing I've considered. I could do that.
I find some of the things happening here very exploitive. Very. I can't believe some of the things I have seen here on Steem.
Steem could be better. It really could be. But, the real question is, will it be? Will someone step up and make the necessary changes?
Thanks for your continued support @logiczombie.
Well, I would have quit a long time ago if it wasn't for your early encouragement (comments and curation).
There are good people here. They are definitely the reason I stayed as well. And, you were one of those people for me as well. This is what I envisioned this place to be, a place for intelligent discourse. The exchange of information and ideas. People helping people. As well as a creative outlet, where people could share their creations for others to enjoy.
@logiczombie
Also, if your upvote is below the minimum-payout (1%), you can still say "thanks" without cutting into the reward-pool-pie.
I don't understand what this means. Would you please explain? @logiczombie
If your upvote is small (less than 0.02 steem) then it never pays out curation rewards.
If your upvote never pays out curation rewards, then you can't be accused of "vote farming", because you're not taking any "money" from the reward-pool-pie.
These vigilante groups, steemcleaners and steemflagrewards, ONLY care about "protecting" their precious-magical-reward-pool-pie.
I've spent an enormous amount of time trying to figure out why high-powered-accounts would spend so much time and effort encouraging downvoters and hunting down "low-effort-exploitative-content" and it turns out, the answer is right in their discord channel,
Strangely enough, the most consistent TOP-EARNER (total steem rewards awarded per previous 30 days) is steemcleaners. The more downvotes people make, the bigger slice of the reward-pool-pie gets shoveled into the mouths of the TOP-EARNERS (that's how the reward-curve is designed, 80% of the pool goes to the top 20% of TOP-EARNERS).
So, as long as you don't cut into their private reward pool, they'll most likely focus their attention on more profitable targets.
Really? But, why am I even surprised? Greed, money, what other motivator would there be in this world?
I love when stuff is marketed under the guise of doing "good" and providing a service/helping people. That makes it twice as bad. Few people have or take the time to do that kind of research. I guess that is what people bank on when they exploit others. Propaganda is a powerful tool.
I wonder (out loud) how long it will take for you to be banned and blacklisted. It has to be coming, right?
I hope something changes. Maybe I am naive. Maybe I am foolish. I still hope.
@logiczombie
Yeah, I try to "follow the rules" to the best of my ability (I upvote a lot of low rep accounts, I'll have to see if I can get an "official" ruling on that). When you read the "appeals" you see people getting downvoted for stuff like saying "veganism made me sick" and for posting-public domain images without attribution-links and for making "low-effort-posts" like posting pictures of their dog.
Well, up to this point, the downvoters still appear to believe they're "reasonable" so I try to reason with them.
I believe declining payouts also gives me some "cover" (but not immunity).
On my very first encounter with steemcleaners (https://steemit.com/dtube/@logiczombie/u29hqt3h5bv) when I asked them why the heck "the original author" (me) would care if anyone re-posted their stuff they told me "why don't you just decline-payouts?" which struck me as odd, I didn't even know what they were talking about! That post only earned 0.04 steem anyway and it was only my 4th post evar! I didn't know what a "discord" was, I didn't know what "rules" I'd "broken", I didn't know who "steemcleaners" was or how the rep system worked.
Excellent
Thanks, I gave it my best effort. Hopefully, something I have said here will help. If not, at least I got to speak my piece. At least that.
May I ask why you're voting for the Tron witnesses?
I am protesting. It's in the post.
Would be less damaging than jeopardizing Steem as we know it to just not vote on any witnesses at all but okay. Sorry didn't have time to read the post.
My tiny little vote while I am powering down does not damage or jeopardize Steem.
If I had that kind of power changes would have been made a long time ago.
And this really says it all doesn't it: "Sorry didn't have time to read the post."
Every vote counts vs stake that was promised to never be used for voting. I'm sorry you feel that way but I've had a lot of sleepless nights this week just trying to catch up with everything going on here. If you feel offended that I didn't have the time to read this post this time around then I could say I feel offended of all your previous posts I've read and manually curated for you to turn against what I believe is the communities well being.
A lot of things happened/were/are happening that weren't supposed to be.
Many promises were made and broken. I see this as a natural consequence. I see no obligation on @ned's part after everything that has happened and after how he has been treated.
At the end of the day it was his stake, not yours, and not anyone else's. His.
And now it is Justin's.
Yes, he changed his mind. It's his mind. He has a right to change it. Perhaps, he has a very good reason. Perhaps, he became as disillusioned with Steem as I have.
No, I don't feel offended. You don't know me. You don't know me as a person. Your opinion is just that, your opinion. I have my own opinions too.
You can and have stated your opinion, I have stated mine.
Since you brought it up:
I love how here on Steem, self-interests are constantly painted as "helping" other people.
What? You and/or others didn't have any incentive to curate my or other people's posts? No one received anything for those curations, whatsoever? Really?
Fact: My original content was used for someone else's profit.
Wow, just wow. :)
And furthermore, I mistakingly thought my content was curated based on quality and not as a favor of some sort to be redeemed in the future. Thanks for clarifying that for me.
And to quote you: "Wow, just wow." That is exactly how I have been feeling after what I have seen and what I have experienced. I hung on after a lot happened hoping for better, but instead of things getting better they became even worse. It really is unbelievable.
This quote I read recently really hit home with me:
"Steem: A digital representation of everything that is wrong with the world."-Anonymous
I thought there was a movement on Steem to do things better, to advocate for positive change, to make an impact.
Instead, it really does seem like a microcosm of everything I don't want.
Fantastic post. You got a new follower for this one. Keep it up, we need more people like you here.
I'd like to stay. I wish my experience here had been better. I am so on the fence as to whether to pull out completely or to throw in more support, now that possible changes are on the horizon. Logic tells me that Steem now finally has a real chance of increasing in value. That mass adoption is a real possibility. But will people sabotage these efforts because they are consumed by their Egos? That, I don't know. Watching the meetings and chat, I have at times had the sense that some people would rather burn the house down than find an amicable solution that accommodates all. I also get the sense that some are more concerned about self-preservation rather than the community as a whole. The whole thing is incredibly frustrating. I'm frustrated!
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