Your understanding of the ancient languages must be very useful in providing a different lens into how modern day concepts have managed to turn ancient wisdom into instant-gratification and the selfie-culture of today (unless it is just another form of the same things that humans have been doing over time).
Taking similar concepts from Taoism and the teaching of Lao-Tzu, I guess he would have seen emotions not as discrete feelings but a spectrum of reactions and response that work as forces to compel people to act a certain way.
Just out of interest, do you know if many of the ancient civilization saw art and science as two separate things, or if this is somewhat of a modern day concept? I thought perhaps you might have some insight into this. Your posts have been very interesting and enjoyable to read and I'd love to see more :)
I don't know much about Taoism--I'm going to do some reading up on it this evening. Sounds really interesting! And thank you so much for this comment. It's a really interesting question, and I had to think it over a bit before responding.
For the Mesopotamians (which includes Sumer, Babylonia, Akkad, and Assyria), they had a very distinct understanding of what constituted "science," which to us is somewhere in the intersection of intellectualism, superstition, and divination. They saw everything as potentially being a portent, and looked for “signs” that would do anything from telling the future to diagnose an illness. They would study sheep livers for anomalies, watch the movement of the stars (like horoscopes), “read” wrinkles in human skin, etc. But I wouldn’t say they really considered art to be part of that equation.
What would probably really interest you is reading up on Egyptian conceptions of art. It’s absolutely fascinating and completely misunderstood by most people. (This has given me a great article idea… thank you!) To the untrained eye, it looks very odd and primitive, but Egyptian depictions are the way they are for a specific reason. Firstly, art was standardized to an impressive degree; artists were formally trained to create their works in a very specific style which stayed consisted for 3,000 years with very few changes, except for a brief period of time called the Amarna period, and the fact that the artistic style was so different then was highly political, religious, and deliberate. The reason that Egyptian art has that distinct style in which you can see two feet and two arms and the torso rotated toward the front is that Egyptians believed that if anything was left out of an artistic work, it didn’t exist. If you depicted someone and you could only see one arm, it meant that they had one arm. If you depicted a house and only showed one room, that house had one room, so all houses had to be depicted from a bird’s-eye view. That also meant that if you defaced a work of art or crossed out someone’s name, you were literally eradicating not only their memory but their entire existence. In that sense, not only did art depict reality; it was reality. So art wasn’t just decoration; it was utilitarian. It could create reality, and it could erase reality. In a way I would say that is scientific in a way.
I am glad that this question has piqued your interest and that you were able to provide such a fascinating comment about it. To be honest I haven't come across anyone who might be able to enlighten me on this question from a historical perspective as I am trying to trace where the origin of this bifurcation might have occurred.
To me it seems like there are cultures where art & science are seen as one of the same (or at least by individuals - Leonardo Da Vinci is usually the first that comes to mind). I think many aspects of human culture show that these two concepts intertwine, in particular religion (and mythology) touches many areas of science and art, as does philosophy. Mathematics has been described as a way to describe the beauty of nature in a systematic way, and architecture bridges the gap between engineering and the natural environment (when done properly).
Maybe not many other people care about this question, but this is the beauty of Steemit! Where I could not find people in my social circles that were interested enough to ponder it further, someone who I literally just crossed path on Steemit has shed a new light on my 'investigation'. If you write an article about it I would love to see it on the Steem Magazine (@steemfreepress is an initiative started by @tonyr that I am very excited about).
Well, of course, the difference between "mythology" and "science" is very much a cultural one. There are plenty of people out there who believe that the Biblical creation story is fact and that the earth is only 6,000 years old. The entire principle of studying the Humanities at its core is to study the intersection of arts and sciences as one discipline.
I think you would really like @monicacope. She's an artist and doctor.
I think in high school they grouped the subjects into two different categories: Science and Arts & Humanities. But for some reason they also had Social Sciences. Just had a quick peek at @monicacope and it looks really interesting as well. There are so many artists here on Steemit plus a very active @steemstem group too (they just had a meetup at CERN!). Have a look at the Steemtopia Network of Learning for some names I have put together (and am trying to add to): https://steemit.com/makesteemitgreat-again/@fibrefox/the-steemtopia-network-of-learning-update-bigger-plans-ahead
For a while I was doing freelance historical research for period authors who couldn't be bothered to get their facts straight and just wanted to focus on plot arc and character development. One really fun assignment was digging into Hatshepsut, who I am sure you must be familiar with, and the reason behind the ritual defacing of her name is an interesting debate in the archaeological community. One of those names that should probably be just as famous as Cleopatra if not more so.
That's so funny you mention her! Because of the discussion above, I've been thinking over doing a post on how to "read" Egyptian art, and I was thinking that she'd definitely be a section in that. I taught Egyptian history at a university (as a TA) and the professor of that class was strongly of the belief that the ritual defacing was not based on her femaleness but on her perception as a usurper. I saw a debate on FB about this recently in which a woman who is a staunch feminist was tearing apart someone who had posted a picture of one of her surviving statues and made a quip about her beard. She gave a rather one dimensional assessment of the whole thing. (To clarify, I also count myself as a feminist.) I was going to chime in about the complexities of the debate but decided not to... previous experiences on chiming in with a "well, actually..." on FB have taught me that those can have some rather nasty unintended consequences. Either way, I think it's fair to say that sexism has been present all throughout history, but one should approach with caution when automatically reading sexism as the prime motivation in every scenario, because you run the risk of inserting modern bias into ancient history.
Also, I very much agree that she should be as famous as Cleopatra. Her story may not be as mythologized and scandalous, but that's only because of the advantage of being of the Greco-Roman era and not of an era where we only recently re-learned how to read the source literature.
Utterly brilliant. In the words of Gilgamesh,... no just kidding, it's only me: I love to hate when there is nothing much else around to be getting on with this love I fell into.
You and me both. It's an active struggle breaking out of that mindset. It's just so frustrating when love becomes untenable. Ya know? Like, HOW DARE YOU BREAK MY HEART CLEARLY YOU ARE A MONSTER!
Ah, like so. I read something WAAAAY more metaphysical into it. And therefore you made it as my first resteem ever. I think there is something scintillating eternal in what you wrote. ( I probably took that Tao/road you were mentioning above, you might travel down later...).
It's meant to work on a couple of levels, but I wrote the first version of this at a time when I was struggling not to allow myself to fall into the hate trap just because someone made it so I couldn't love them anymore. But then it occurred to me when I did a rewrite that the same dynamic works in other ways too and that so many of our feelings are fluid, and become misplaced as a result, because bad feelings can actually be easier to cope with than no feelings (to an extent). But you're also welcome to reinterpret however you want to and I think it's really cool that you see something else in it (you know, Death of the Author and all). Actually I take it as a huge compliment that you see that kind of depth, hah.
I always enjoy reading your work. I'm glad you're taking some time to write a post that is not super-dupey research intensive. Have fun, explore, then come back and write about your true love. We don't ever want you to reach the opposite pole of love. It would be a shame for this platform if we don't support someone's passion and somehow skew this love into indifference.
It's good motivation to get back into creative writing, at the very least. It's true... love of something can easily turn into indifference with enough discouragement. I'm sure I would have eventually burned myself out.
I measure your place? That doesn't sound right. I <3 you :)
I may not be quite as ready to place hate and love so close together but I certainly agree about the indifference. Really liking the Sumerian historical posting. I have a hobby of creating devil/demon accounts here, any particularly good Sumerian devil/demon type names you could recommend?
On a couple of occasions I asked my professors why they thought that there isn't one word for love and that Sumerian has this "to measure a place" business, and nobody seemed all that interested in thinking that over with me. Sumerian is built on a fairly limited number of monosyllabic words that have a wide range of meanings, and then there are a lot of compound words (like ki ang and hulu gig). Sometimes those compound words makes sense and sometimes they don't. It just seemed to me like love was a pretty basic thing that is ubiquitous enough to warrant its very own monosyllabic word. There's probably some boring explanation, but I don't have any native Sumerian speakers to ask, so I'll go ahead and imagine that there's a deep philosophical reason behind it.
Sumerian demons! There are so many of them. The Mesopotamians believed that sickness and premature death were caused by demons, and they wrote exorcism incantations with long lists of demon names to try to rid people of them. I can go dig into some books tomorrow and find a good one for you.
This hurts. Because I know it's true. And when it slips in time to indifference that hurts even more than I ever knew it could. Making it personal here, but it struck me in a personal way.
Oh no, it's not that I'm going through it. I've already been there. It's that I'm watching it die. It already has, really. Maybe it's that I'm seeing it fade away now. That's it. The curtain has been pulled, and I went for so long within the comfort that it hadn't. I can't even describe the feeling. Helpless. Nostalgic. Regretful. Old lol. Life moves on.
Btw, your writing takes on subjects from some very interesting angles. I really do enjoy reading.
You're welcome. And it does. It's helpful to see someone else word a thing in a way that I don't necessarily have the means to - or the talent to. Or maybe it's more perspective. I like collecting others' perspectives. You certainly have some interesting ones.
Great post, and definitely love is about being present to another, to a place, and there is not enough love in the world, there is too much indifference. One thing I struggle with is the way so many people seem to have no interests, no sense of discovery or ambition. They show a mask of indifference to the world, but in a sense they are hiding their true selves behind a mask. They are afraid to love, and that is their personal tragedy which in time flows out into others. Indifference begets indifference and love begets love. We are here for such a short time to measure this space together. Thanks for reminding me.
I like that you have a deep interest in Sumerian culture and ancient ways of being which are fundamental. The past is a foreign country and it is great to open doors and conjecture on what we have to learn from ancient cultures and peoples. * years ago I did an amateur production of Inanna in the Underworld with a group of Czech friends. I wrote the play in verse in English and we translated it to Czech. For me a a foreigner my life sometimes feels like a journey to the underworld. In Prague there is a strong goth sensibility, a tragic sense of history. I like how Inanna's journey is one of sacrifice and escape. Her sister/twin is trapped forever in the shades of death and Inanna must die to go there, but she fulfills a rebirth there and is reborn herself, thus explaining each new spring. Certainly you know much more about it than I do. Anyway we only performed the play once in a basement bar. Here is part one, with English subtitles, performed in a somewhat somnambulent way. Kind of dreamy.
Wow, this video is incredible. I'm going to send it along to some of my former classmates. Years ago we did a translation of that text (into English, of course), so it's surreal to hear it in Czech. Thank you so much for sharing this. I can't even explain to you how incredible it is it is that someone came on here and read this and contributed something so magical. I wrote another article on here about Enheduanna, the woman who is the first known poet in history, which talks about Sumerian literature, if you're interested.
I'm glad you like it, I think there are 2 or 3 parts on youtube altogether, and you can read the English by clicking CC .. I rewrote the original a bit, added some poetic license but stayed close to the original story. I have a few books on Sumeria, it's pretty fascinating. Also I think of the Iraq marshes that Saddam Hussein had drained, those were the last vestiges of old Sumeria, am I right? There's an old Nat Ge magazine about the marshes of Iraq ... Anyway that just came to my mind. I'll definitely check out your post and its great to find you here. I'm looking forward to your posts. :)
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"Fear of meaninglessness", I think that pretty much covers a lot of today's issues, and I loved the Bombay Beach Picture.
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Wow, what a perfect song. Thank you.
Your understanding of the ancient languages must be very useful in providing a different lens into how modern day concepts have managed to turn ancient wisdom into instant-gratification and the selfie-culture of today (unless it is just another form of the same things that humans have been doing over time).
Taking similar concepts from Taoism and the teaching of Lao-Tzu, I guess he would have seen emotions not as discrete feelings but a spectrum of reactions and response that work as forces to compel people to act a certain way.
Just out of interest, do you know if many of the ancient civilization saw art and science as two separate things, or if this is somewhat of a modern day concept? I thought perhaps you might have some insight into this. Your posts have been very interesting and enjoyable to read and I'd love to see more :)
I don't know much about Taoism--I'm going to do some reading up on it this evening. Sounds really interesting! And thank you so much for this comment. It's a really interesting question, and I had to think it over a bit before responding.
For the Mesopotamians (which includes Sumer, Babylonia, Akkad, and Assyria), they had a very distinct understanding of what constituted "science," which to us is somewhere in the intersection of intellectualism, superstition, and divination. They saw everything as potentially being a portent, and looked for “signs” that would do anything from telling the future to diagnose an illness. They would study sheep livers for anomalies, watch the movement of the stars (like horoscopes), “read” wrinkles in human skin, etc. But I wouldn’t say they really considered art to be part of that equation.
What would probably really interest you is reading up on Egyptian conceptions of art. It’s absolutely fascinating and completely misunderstood by most people. (This has given me a great article idea… thank you!) To the untrained eye, it looks very odd and primitive, but Egyptian depictions are the way they are for a specific reason. Firstly, art was standardized to an impressive degree; artists were formally trained to create their works in a very specific style which stayed consisted for 3,000 years with very few changes, except for a brief period of time called the Amarna period, and the fact that the artistic style was so different then was highly political, religious, and deliberate. The reason that Egyptian art has that distinct style in which you can see two feet and two arms and the torso rotated toward the front is that Egyptians believed that if anything was left out of an artistic work, it didn’t exist. If you depicted someone and you could only see one arm, it meant that they had one arm. If you depicted a house and only showed one room, that house had one room, so all houses had to be depicted from a bird’s-eye view. That also meant that if you defaced a work of art or crossed out someone’s name, you were literally eradicating not only their memory but their entire existence. In that sense, not only did art depict reality; it was reality. So art wasn’t just decoration; it was utilitarian. It could create reality, and it could erase reality. In a way I would say that is scientific in a way.
I am glad that this question has piqued your interest and that you were able to provide such a fascinating comment about it. To be honest I haven't come across anyone who might be able to enlighten me on this question from a historical perspective as I am trying to trace where the origin of this bifurcation might have occurred.
To me it seems like there are cultures where art & science are seen as one of the same (or at least by individuals - Leonardo Da Vinci is usually the first that comes to mind). I think many aspects of human culture show that these two concepts intertwine, in particular religion (and mythology) touches many areas of science and art, as does philosophy. Mathematics has been described as a way to describe the beauty of nature in a systematic way, and architecture bridges the gap between engineering and the natural environment (when done properly).
Maybe not many other people care about this question, but this is the beauty of Steemit! Where I could not find people in my social circles that were interested enough to ponder it further, someone who I literally just crossed path on Steemit has shed a new light on my 'investigation'. If you write an article about it I would love to see it on the Steem Magazine (@steemfreepress is an initiative started by @tonyr that I am very excited about).
Well, of course, the difference between "mythology" and "science" is very much a cultural one. There are plenty of people out there who believe that the Biblical creation story is fact and that the earth is only 6,000 years old. The entire principle of studying the Humanities at its core is to study the intersection of arts and sciences as one discipline.
I think you would really like @monicacope. She's an artist and doctor.
I think in high school they grouped the subjects into two different categories: Science and Arts & Humanities. But for some reason they also had Social Sciences. Just had a quick peek at @monicacope and it looks really interesting as well. There are so many artists here on Steemit plus a very active @steemstem group too (they just had a meetup at CERN!). Have a look at the Steemtopia Network of Learning for some names I have put together (and am trying to add to): https://steemit.com/makesteemitgreat-again/@fibrefox/the-steemtopia-network-of-learning-update-bigger-plans-ahead
For a while I was doing freelance historical research for period authors who couldn't be bothered to get their facts straight and just wanted to focus on plot arc and character development. One really fun assignment was digging into Hatshepsut, who I am sure you must be familiar with, and the reason behind the ritual defacing of her name is an interesting debate in the archaeological community. One of those names that should probably be just as famous as Cleopatra if not more so.
That's so funny you mention her! Because of the discussion above, I've been thinking over doing a post on how to "read" Egyptian art, and I was thinking that she'd definitely be a section in that. I taught Egyptian history at a university (as a TA) and the professor of that class was strongly of the belief that the ritual defacing was not based on her femaleness but on her perception as a usurper. I saw a debate on FB about this recently in which a woman who is a staunch feminist was tearing apart someone who had posted a picture of one of her surviving statues and made a quip about her beard. She gave a rather one dimensional assessment of the whole thing. (To clarify, I also count myself as a feminist.) I was going to chime in about the complexities of the debate but decided not to... previous experiences on chiming in with a "well, actually..." on FB have taught me that those can have some rather nasty unintended consequences. Either way, I think it's fair to say that sexism has been present all throughout history, but one should approach with caution when automatically reading sexism as the prime motivation in every scenario, because you run the risk of inserting modern bias into ancient history.
Also, I very much agree that she should be as famous as Cleopatra. Her story may not be as mythologized and scandalous, but that's only because of the advantage of being of the Greco-Roman era and not of an era where we only recently re-learned how to read the source literature.
Utterly brilliant. In the words of Gilgamesh,... no just kidding, it's only me: I love to hate when there is nothing much else around to be getting on with this love I fell into.
You and me both. It's an active struggle breaking out of that mindset. It's just so frustrating when love becomes untenable. Ya know? Like, HOW DARE YOU BREAK MY HEART CLEARLY YOU ARE A MONSTER!
Ah, like so. I read something WAAAAY more metaphysical into it. And therefore you made it as my first resteem ever. I think there is something scintillating eternal in what you wrote. ( I probably took that Tao/road you were mentioning above, you might travel down later...).
It's meant to work on a couple of levels, but I wrote the first version of this at a time when I was struggling not to allow myself to fall into the hate trap just because someone made it so I couldn't love them anymore. But then it occurred to me when I did a rewrite that the same dynamic works in other ways too and that so many of our feelings are fluid, and become misplaced as a result, because bad feelings can actually be easier to cope with than no feelings (to an extent). But you're also welcome to reinterpret however you want to and I think it's really cool that you see something else in it (you know, Death of the Author and all). Actually I take it as a huge compliment that you see that kind of depth, hah.
this is so true and so misunderstood... Good post Mallory
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Thank you so much, again!
Wow, that was deep.
Love your work @malloryblythe!
Thank you!
I always enjoy reading your work. I'm glad you're taking some time to write a post that is not super-dupey research intensive. Have fun, explore, then come back and write about your true love. We don't ever want you to reach the opposite pole of love. It would be a shame for this platform if we don't support someone's passion and somehow skew this love into indifference.
It's good motivation to get back into creative writing, at the very least. It's true... love of something can easily turn into indifference with enough discouragement. I'm sure I would have eventually burned myself out.
I measure your place? That doesn't sound right. I <3 you :)
I may not be quite as ready to place hate and love so close together but I certainly agree about the indifference. Really liking the Sumerian historical posting. I have a hobby of creating devil/demon accounts here, any particularly good Sumerian devil/demon type names you could recommend?
On a couple of occasions I asked my professors why they thought that there isn't one word for love and that Sumerian has this "to measure a place" business, and nobody seemed all that interested in thinking that over with me. Sumerian is built on a fairly limited number of monosyllabic words that have a wide range of meanings, and then there are a lot of compound words (like ki ang and hulu gig). Sometimes those compound words makes sense and sometimes they don't. It just seemed to me like love was a pretty basic thing that is ubiquitous enough to warrant its very own monosyllabic word. There's probably some boring explanation, but I don't have any native Sumerian speakers to ask, so I'll go ahead and imagine that there's a deep philosophical reason behind it.
Sumerian demons! There are so many of them. The Mesopotamians believed that sickness and premature death were caused by demons, and they wrote exorcism incantations with long lists of demon names to try to rid people of them. I can go dig into some books tomorrow and find a good one for you.
oooh you had me at exorcism incantations with long lists of demon names lol
This hurts. Because I know it's true. And when it slips in time to indifference that hurts even more than I ever knew it could. Making it personal here, but it struck me in a personal way.
I'm sorry that you're going through that. (Clearly) I know that feeling very well... it's rough.
Oh no, it's not that I'm going through it. I've already been there. It's that I'm watching it die. It already has, really. Maybe it's that I'm seeing it fade away now. That's it. The curtain has been pulled, and I went for so long within the comfort that it hadn't. I can't even describe the feeling. Helpless. Nostalgic. Regretful. Old lol. Life moves on.
Btw, your writing takes on subjects from some very interesting angles. I really do enjoy reading.
Thank you so much, I hope that it helps in some way.
You're welcome. And it does. It's helpful to see someone else word a thing in a way that I don't necessarily have the means to - or the talent to. Or maybe it's more perspective. I like collecting others' perspectives. You certainly have some interesting ones.
Great post, and definitely love is about being present to another, to a place, and there is not enough love in the world, there is too much indifference. One thing I struggle with is the way so many people seem to have no interests, no sense of discovery or ambition. They show a mask of indifference to the world, but in a sense they are hiding their true selves behind a mask. They are afraid to love, and that is their personal tragedy which in time flows out into others. Indifference begets indifference and love begets love. We are here for such a short time to measure this space together. Thanks for reminding me.
I like that you have a deep interest in Sumerian culture and ancient ways of being which are fundamental. The past is a foreign country and it is great to open doors and conjecture on what we have to learn from ancient cultures and peoples. * years ago I did an amateur production of Inanna in the Underworld with a group of Czech friends. I wrote the play in verse in English and we translated it to Czech. For me a a foreigner my life sometimes feels like a journey to the underworld. In Prague there is a strong goth sensibility, a tragic sense of history. I like how Inanna's journey is one of sacrifice and escape. Her sister/twin is trapped forever in the shades of death and Inanna must die to go there, but she fulfills a rebirth there and is reborn herself, thus explaining each new spring. Certainly you know much more about it than I do. Anyway we only performed the play once in a basement bar. Here is part one, with English subtitles, performed in a somewhat somnambulent way. Kind of dreamy.
Wow, this video is incredible. I'm going to send it along to some of my former classmates. Years ago we did a translation of that text (into English, of course), so it's surreal to hear it in Czech. Thank you so much for sharing this. I can't even explain to you how incredible it is it is that someone came on here and read this and contributed something so magical. I wrote another article on here about Enheduanna, the woman who is the first known poet in history, which talks about Sumerian literature, if you're interested.
I'm glad you like it, I think there are 2 or 3 parts on youtube altogether, and you can read the English by clicking CC .. I rewrote the original a bit, added some poetic license but stayed close to the original story. I have a few books on Sumeria, it's pretty fascinating. Also I think of the Iraq marshes that Saddam Hussein had drained, those were the last vestiges of old Sumeria, am I right? There's an old Nat Ge magazine about the marshes of Iraq ... Anyway that just came to my mind. I'll definitely check out your post and its great to find you here. I'm looking forward to your posts. :)