Vote Buying: an animation
Isn't Steemit quite the exciting place? Lots of changes and improvements as we charge forward toward the inevitable exit from Beta.
Vote buying via various services is becoming more and more popular. One of the services now allows people to spend large amounts to promote their posts. I believe the daily limit that can be sent to one of the most popular is 9999 SBD.
It inspired the animation below
This effectively allows any old twoddle that someone is willing to spend the money on to appear on the trending pages. Now I ain't gonna defend what gets on trending. But is that it, just buy your way in now? Trending, whether we like it or not is what is most often viewed by newcomers to the site.
I don't think it's good. What do you think?
It is not good. People are boosting terrible content, which will never gain an audience. Therefore, there are only two outcomes:
(1) The account stops receiving votes as soon as the vote buying is over
or
(2) The user buys votes forever
There's no magical "(3) Everybody falls in love with the terrible content" lol, so I'm not sure what the users are expecting in the long-term. Most likely they have no long term plan at all.
See, I should just have said it as plainly as you did.
People are boosting terrible content. It is the kind of content that sits not deserve a decent reward. It is not that it is being overlooked and us amazing but it is just mediocre. That is what newcomers will get to see now when they arrive
I think it's awful and the folk will end up buying votes forever leaving them perpetually in real to the vote buying services
And therein lies the whole ball of wax. The constant clamoring for attention-- be it from vote begging, from self-upvoting, from buying votes and resteems all "stink" of short term (desperration?) thinking to me.
It also stinks of a category of users I am only too familiar with (from many years of dealing with "rewards-for-content" sites) whom I'll loosely classify as the *"I Click Links On The Web To Make Money Online" crowd. They could care less whether we're a blogging site, an ad factory, a gravel pit or anything else... the ONLY thing they care about is milking whatever "system" they are part of for every fraction of a cent they can get out of it. They tend to be very, very greedy, very very short sighted and not very bright. Which, of course, those with money can easily exploit.
"Spend 10 SBD to get a $15 upvote, which will decline to $12 by payout time, of which you only REALLY get $9 because the rest goes to curation. So you LOSE $1 net, and the only person to GAIN is the seller of the upvote who's $10 richer. Have a nice day!"
Ya this is the worst part! Many people are simply looking for the easiest path to money. No exceptions, no logic. If you tell them that they can earn 10 cents per day to click a button on a blank page, they will do it.
There is some perspective to be had here - for some people, they may be living in very economically depressed countries. If the average living wage in your town in $2, then earning $0.50 from an upvote bot scheme might actually be a great use of your time.
From a first-world perspective, it seems like insanity. But I try to stay open-minded. The best we can do is to help people see the bigger opportunities - if they realize that $10/day from a good steemit blog is completely possible, they may be open to trying different/better tactics.
@heymattsokol, I try to stay open-minded, as well.
Experience tells me some of it may be cultural, as well. How come people in the Nigerian community seem able to figure out that good content will eventually earn good returns, while users in certain parts of SE Asia "default" to spamming, plagiarism and gaming the system?
Maybe it's in the approach... do you see Steemit as an "opportunity" (i.e. a windfall you would not otherwise have had) or as a "job" (setting up the dynamic that you are entitled/obligated to "get" something)?
How do we counter this in such a way that quality is rewarded? You and I both belong to an initiative that upvotes, BUT our memberships are "by invitation" and heavily vetted and very selective, on top of that-- merit based.
I'm not sure if there is a "big-picture" solution - there probably isn't some change to steem's rules or code that will fix it. For me it seems more like a problem to address one step at a time, from the ground up, with grassroots initiatives.
Depends on our status here too. For me - I have a lot of respect here, as my rep of 67 / 1,400+ followers indicates. But I don't have much money - I'm very poor, with only 2,500 of SP to vote with. So for me, I've focused on the community side - and as a result, now I'm able to use other user's money (via OCD and Curie) to support great posts.
For you it could be different. I think we each need to find our own best contribution. For example Ned shouldn't be spending his time curating posts - he has bigger fish to fry. And a new new user, reputation 25, shouldn't do much of that either. They should focus on content creation and meeting people.
It's all relative and there are no perfect answers, lol
edit: Also - there have been a lot of good conversations about this lately. I might make a "MEGATHREAD" soon where we can talk about it as a group... will invite you if that happens. :-)
Yup, perfect answers are in short supply, for sure. I keep hoping that the "communities" feature-- whenever they finally get it released-- will help filter some of all this.
And yes, everyone has their own gig... I'm trying to build this account "organically" as a venture to support art and artists and it is slow going, but I am patient... again, building a community, but keeping it somewhat "niche" specific to art and artists.
I'd appreciate a heads-up if you do create a discussion about all of this!
Rewards don't actually just decline by payout - they decline when the Steem price falls. MinnowBooster is so popular because it is profitable, not because it's not. Having said that the voting power is wrecked now from this new policy and I doubt it would be profitable now.
Seriously though, compare that to voting bots that just straight up aren't profitable, that are unashamedly fleecing the customer. That's before you even talk about curation or Steem doing what it always does.
And actually you want to know the real problem with Steem ... HUGE stakeholders dumping STEEM on the market 365 days a year ... these conversations don't happen when STEEM price is high ... when it's low, things get vicious ... That 3.5 mil MinnowBooster has is 3.5 mil that isn't being dumped. There's people on here blabbing on about how they care about the ecosystem literally dumping 80K on the market every few days ... I mean I know they need that gold flaked caviar with coke on the side, but sheeeeeeeiiiit
I see some good material here for the upcoming "Thursdays with Uncle Boom"
favorite series :D
Smashing! :O)
Haha, you are right, there is great potential! :0)
Trending as a whole hasn’t been good for a loooooong time...if ever. It’s actually a very poor representation of what this place has to offer. I don’t think it should be the featured page for the site. The addition of the mega-vote buying only makes it worse...with no added benefit of demand for STEEM.
In my opinion, this and delegation leasing is killing demand, which was already low. But since very few people want to actually acknowledge and address the problems around here that have been brought on by terrible hard forks, not much can be done. It’s really sad to see. There was so much potential for this place and it feels like it’s slipping away, being replaced by obvious scheming and scamming disguised as “blockchain businesses.”
Yeah, I never look at the trending page unless there is some whacky wildness going on. Newcomers are totally obsessed by which totally does make it even worse now with the vote buying malarkey.
The delegation leasing, definitely another thing. I have been approached lately by two separate groups suggesting I chip in and join with them so that they can buy a big delegation and upvote themselves exclusively. It's just going to become more and more prevalent. Scheming and scamming indeed. Sigh
Word re: the trending page. It is mostly just established whales with solid trails, content aside.
Regarding demand - DLM is priced in STEEM, people wanting to lease have to buy STEEM. See your point with the voting bot though. @Reggaemuffin can you not charge STEEM for votes instead to boost STEEM demand?
Also as I said above, there's a certain originating whale dumping 80K on the market every few days ... that is fucking demand. 3.5 mil delegated to MB is 3.5 not being dumped.
Was it just the hard forks that brought Steemit to its current sorry state? That would suggest there are rule sets that could prevent or negate the process of degeneration and accumulation we have been seeing.
I am not sure such rule sets exist within the economic thinking that was the basis of Steemit; I can only hope they do, and that the powers that be are still interested in implementing them.
For all I know, they think that Steemit is "working as intended" and will never even consider rule sets that fall outside the scope of their economic belief system.
Having said that, I must admit that I don't have a solution either, but I don't think adjusting curves and percentages will dissuade the richer short-term reward seekers from doing what they will without considering the long-term effects of their behaviour on the image of Steemit and the price of Steem .
Thanks for making a great point.
There are both negative and positives for vote buying. If you are a relative newbie and produce fantastic content, why shouldn’t you be able to vote buy to boost your post? I agree that this can then be abused by ‘shit-posts’ that reach trending and take money from the reward pool, but there are a few accounts that ‘shit-post’ and receive big rewards without vote buying. That is a different topic though.
Now I see some big accounts have decided to downvote posts that vote buy? Is this equitable and fair that the direction of Steemit is controlled by a few?
I like the conversation and debate that this topic is creating though.
It has generated a good amount of talking which is great!
On the part you mention that why shouldn't a great poster pay to boost their post. I think the opposite. Why not work to build an audience and let the rewards come naturally. If they genuinely are a writer of good content them the chances are high that this will happen. Shortcuts don't always have to be taken.
Personally I have nothing against the original idea of booster services. Then it all started (imo) to get a bit wild with the amounts going up and up and now I just see people paying vast amounts to get up there in trending.
What does that really mean though, do their posts really deserve such a payout? Was/is the quality so good that it would have gotten there if it hadn't been for the author being new? Will they find that now they have had a couple of big hitters that they can do without the booster services? With the posts I have seen I doubt it.
I suspect that to maintain the big payouts they will have to be in thrall to vote buying in perpetuity.
However, just to contradict myself I don't feel that people shouldn't be allowed to do it, this is steemit after all and we are all free. Relatively
I don't think it is fair that the direction of steemit is controlled by a few (if it is) but then it falls under the same argument for why shouldn't people be allowed to buy votes. Why shouldn't people with a big stake use it as they see fit?
Cor blimey, could go on for ages! Thank you for your comment, I really appreciated it
Yeah it sucks, trending was never organic, it was mostly about circle jerkery, vote buying and of course 50 shades of brown if you catch my drift. I don't think this will change any time soon.
ignorance is bliss. never go on trending..
It was indeed a fair old stramash before, I think this makes it worse!
So much noise about trending page.
Remember, trending is just a sorting algorythm. It could be changed. If it not changed then steemit finds current order of things with whales and vote buys suitable or even desirable.
well those are the highest paid posts so it means something for what steemit rewards and values....it's not a sorting mechanism, is a suggestion :)
Hehe that is indeed true!
I don't lend too much credence to the trending page. However I know that other people do particularly newcomers and people who are not members of the site. If they see dross being the highest paid. It can't be good.
I know it can be changed but the current situation is not one I find to be desirable at stated in my post
There is a bit of a sad realization that kicks in, once the knowledge of bots, purchased promotion, et al kicks in. "Dross" is a dead-on description of what I first viewed. In no arrogant way, I honestly thought I could earn some quick income by coming to Steemit. It didn't take much time to see that it's about the long game, and really sinking one's teeth into it, in order to see serious returns. While the hard work part isn't discouraging, the promotion peddlers certainly leave an unpleasant aftertaste. It's part of why I so enjoy the content here, along with a handful of other clever folks. Here's to fighting the good fight!
Well said! It is totally my point. It's what new people see and seem to lend credence too. Buying your way to it hardly seems fair or makes it better than it is
I do not check the trending page too often I just check my feed and read the following posts.
That's what I do. I only ever check the trending category if I want more news on a big change that I haven't gotten from my feed
I had the luxury ( dumb luck ) of sitting on the front row for a certain 'fireside chat.' Though I lack a wee bit in the intelligence category, from time to time my noggin has a moment of coherency that allows me to 'read between the lines.' While at said 'fireside chat,' my noggin heard something akin, 'it's very interesting to see these economies develop within the current eco system.' PLEASE, that is not an exact quote, it's just what my noggin remembers which isn't worth about 2 pence, on most days. My point is, those at the top are entertained at the moment by observing what is transpiring.
I think you would agree that we've seen all sorts of shenanigans and we will see loads more as these 'growing pains' continue. I am of the opinion that the bad will eventually fall by the way side
Simply my humble opinion. I hope I did not stir any one's dander up.
Hehe, I love a good opinion whether humble or no. I quite agree with that. There it's and will be many shenanigans before we get to a final state as it were. I just hope that some of the current shenanigans don't sabotage our journey to that end state!
I believe, and my belief is getting stronger as the days go by, we are in the beginning of a ( and I DO NOT USE THIS WORD LIGHTLY ) renaissance. Having been at steemfest, I saw all manner of folk from all manner of land and station. All of which, peacefully assembled, with the glimmer in their eye of significant change ahead. I speak of the world of crypto in general being the force behind the coming change, and I am very optimistic of steemit's role within that change. With that said, I do not have much concern over spending an inordinate amount in order to receive an inordinate amount. That eventually turns into a zero sum game that few will want to play.
I believe we are at the beginning as well! Not just steemit but the tipping point for crypto to burst out of the dark and into the mainstream!!
I believe that is inherent to happen no matter you like it or not. People who have resources and not always the same with the ones that believe in a better and decentralised world. It's your responsibility to act upon your heart and to promote good content to your friends so that people that have something to say to be seen. We are here to be the change 😋
you forgot to add...and that's whyyyy you should upvote me!! :)
Hahahahaah! :O)
It will definitely happen whether I like it or not, that is for sure. That is why I do try to act with my heart and promote where I can :0)
I don't think it's good at all. In fact, it has a really good chance of killing Steemit, the social site. I expect Steem, the currency will be fine, thanks to SMTs and other initiatives.
My experience of this site is that it has long been about "Automation vs. People" and "Short term vs. Long Term." Everybody's too concerned with making money NOW, and in most cases the content isn't even remotely vetted. I have come across a number of posts with maybe 3-4 "human" upvotes and more than a dozen paid service votes. WTF?
The "problem" for me is that it basically makes a mockery of quality content.
Thus, any idealistic attachments to Steemit potentially being a potential game changer in social media is out the window. Steemit merely imitates life and the (true) "way of capitalism:" A bunch of desperate bottom feeders doing "whatever it takes," which pretty much only serves to enable a handful of "fat cats." A harsh indictment? Maybe... but let's be real here:
@ned can have as many "fireside chats" as he wants, but every single rewards-for-content site over the past 20 years has struggled with something like this, so pretending that Steemit is somehow "different" simply because we're on the blockchain is basically sticking your head in the sand. The greedy elements of human nature could care less whether there's a blockchain...
I love it how you put it and i totally agree with it:
"it has a really good chance of killing Steemit, the social site"
Exactly my thoughts!
"it basically makes a mockery of quality content."
Could not have put it better!
"Steemit potentially being a potential game changer in social media is out the window"
If nothing changed - i totally agree. Hoping for change... probably not much...
"A bunch of desperate bottom feeders doing "whatever it takes," which pretty much only serves to enable a handful of "fat cats."
AWESOME way to put it.
"Ned can have as many "fireside chats" as he wants, but every single rewards-for-content site over the past 20 years has struggled with something like this, so pretending that Steemit is somehow "different" simply because we're on the blockchain is basically sticking your head in the sand. The greedy elements of human nature could care less whether there's a blockchain"
Agree 100%
We seem to be very much aligned in our thoughts but you put it in words in such a succinct and elegant way!
Well @bix, let's just hope it all sorts itself out. I try to keep in mind that the big vote sellers are-- ultimately-- deeply invested in the Steemit ecosystem, and they tend to suddenly turnabout when it becomes evident that their investment... best represented by the price of the Steem token... is heading down. If you own 800,000 SP and Steem is at $1.00... and you watch that price slowly degrade, odds are you'll change your strategy before your investment is worth 1/10th of what it was...
So please help me to connect the dots.
Let's say Someone has hundreds of thousands or millions of SP.
ok, they see their investment slowly degrades.
What would they do? Rent it out more?
They can't cash it out. My understanding is that it's not a liquid asset.
They can benefit from delegating but then again what the difference does it make if the dollar value of it goes down?
If someone is sitting on this asset they would want to put it to best use anyway, regardless of the value.
What is the best use for them then if the value decreases?
Thanks.
Nobody changed their strategy when the price fell from $4 in the summer of 2016 to $0.07 in March. Many large stakeholders were dumping into the all-time lows. I don’t expect things to change this time if prices continue falling.
I don't think it will kill it but yes it is certainly not good at the moment. There have been many phases of things which have been not good and ultimately in the end they have all imploded. Which is why I have some optimism...
I just hope that this one implodes somewhat quicker than the rest :0)
Well, you've been here longer than I have, so you have more depth of perspective. Reading between the lines of the greater community-- and especially those who have been here "since the start"-- a common thread that comes up is that this can become "self correcting" if it simply becomes "not profitable" to engage in behavior that's detrimental to Steemit.
But it seems to me that might require some changes at the code level, rather than at the community level... maybe a return to 50/50 curation vs. posting rewards, but I don't know... as I was not here at that time.
All other things aside, I really DO want Steemit to flourish and hope it does!
Me too.i absolutely love steemit. I am sure everything will work out but it may need some intervention. It could be code based out even user based.
It might even just peter out by itself as the market for buying becomes less and less. I kinda hope that happens.
You're probably right... if the price of Steem keeps fizzling out, the whole thing may burn itself out. Whether that requires us to fall all the way back to ten cent Steem... that I don't know.
Well there is an advantage when the price drops really low. Your posts get paid a lot more steempower, despite the dollar value being low. Thats if memory serves me totally correctly :O) I think it will pick up after christmas though