The return of "locked" stake and passive earning?

in OCD4 years ago (edited)

Thursdays require a fair amount of rush in the morning as I get our daughter fed, medicated and ready, take the dog with her, get her to the daycare and then leave for work in a location an hour away for a 9am start.

This morning as we were walking out the door, I asked Smallsteps if we had done everything and she ran through it all like a checklist and all were marked with a tick. Running a bit late, we ran off to the car.

I was a little annoyed at myself as the windows were frozen and I had forgotten to defrost them earlier, which meant scraping the ice off. I got her to daycare, undressed her winter wear, gave the compulsory hugs ad kisses and then waved through the window as I walked back to the car and an hour later I was at the clients premises.

I forgot my work bag. So, no laptop....

IMG_20200123_121525.jpg

Oops.

Well, I can manage without it at with the morning clients, but it makes it a bit more difficult to do the other parts of my job today. Looks like it is time to clear some emails, which is about all I can do from my phone.

If you are wondering what the picture is of, it is a light hanging from the ceiling in the shopping center I am sitting in. There are many of them and it kind of looks like a freeze frame of a porn money shot. I think I'd prefer the sword of Damacles hanging over my head.


The return of the 100% stake?

I am still thinking of various things around the inflation and unstaking times and was reminded of a post I made a while ago about locking up stake for passive income but losing some privileges. While originally forwarded to combat bidbot, could this be adjusted to suit investors now?

Spitballing here...

  • What if the Steem Savings wallet came with its own address and separate key, which means it works as cold storage

  • What if the holdings in there can earn a daily percentage as if it is voting stake earning curation. Since it is not active or playing the curation game, it should have a penalty instead of the 50% it gets say, 25% as if it is voting late or very early. The cold wallet will come with no other rights as inactive stake should not have a voting say in content discovery or governance

  • What if the 25% that is foregone either gets burnt as Steem, converted to SBD as needed or funds the SPS

  • Because the earnings on the stake in the savings wallet are automatic and have a haircut applied, the account has already "paid" for an immediate withdrawal -which can come through a specific key, that can be kept offline at all other times and perhaps a secondary user created password.

  • Would this mean that for active users, they could earn more by being active and with their stake, but could keep some portion in the hold wallet earning a portion of the curation that can be withdrawn immediately if needs be. A risk managed position

  • Does having an integrated cold wallet locked behind a separate key with potential other security measures available bring peace of mind to investors

  • Would the loss of active stake on the platform be offset by the potential burning of the 25% of earnings and would that daily 25% of "curation" be enough incentive to lock stake with the right for immediate powerdown

If in a hypothetical price scenario based on above...

1 million SP has a vote of 10x10 at 20c Steem.

That account could earn 50% curation, which is 250 Steem a day. Locked in cold storage it would receive 125 added to the cold storage wallet and 125 would be burned, which benefits all holders. This seems expensive, but what this can allow is the wallet to earn indefinitely (and never pay more than the principal) and reserve the right for immediate withdrawal at a moment's notice from the security of a cold wallet, rather than the risk of holding on an exchange - where it earns nothing.

Flexibility and options always come at a price, and the faster something is needed, the higher the bill. Currently the Savings wallet is sitting unused for various reasons, so perhaps converting what we already have to serve a different purpose could make sense. The numbers can be tweaked to suit, the 25% was an example.

What would happen is that we would have three Steem positions.

Vested - staked
Unvested - liquid
Cold storage - earning a constant rate

Would this encourage maximizers to put into cold storage and remove them from activity on chain?

Would it reduce liquids just sitting on exchanges and give a clearer picture of real trading volumes as only the trading Steem is there?

Would the vested users have more influence on the system and earn better to close the gaps to the inactive but earning cold storage users?

Would it attract passive investment as they could earn tokens doing nothing without exchange risks?

Would the burning of tokens create even more scarcity and with the movement of stake of exchanges and into cold wallets that earn, push price?

If price increased significantly, would the cold wallets want to keep burning the 25% of their potential a day or would they become active?


EDIT to clean up a bit

Key points to consider:

  • Security - a cold wallet with separate key, potentially a savings wallet that can be converted to cold by the user?

  • Speed of PD - Since the immediate powerdown fee is paid daily and upfront through a portion of earnings, it won't require the burning fee to be applied at withdrawal.

  • Reason to Sink - Because of the percentage of earnings, there is much more reason to sink Steem into an account and earn while waiting for the markets instead of having it on an exchange.

  • Protection of Principle - Because the fee for immediate powerdown is paid through earnings, the pinciple can only increase.

  • Burning - Burning could be for immediate burn to lower supply and inflation rate, Go to helping the SBD peg or funding the SPS.

  • Inflation - By burning the Steem it will effectively lower the inflation rate on the supply and potentially by a great deal if large accounts choose this option.

I think this covers many of the points that were mentioned in the @steemitblog post comments section.


Caveat...

As said above, this is just Spitballing some thoughts on the matter and there are many things to consider here. It is also hard as I am on my phone which makes it harder to review.

However...

What do you think? Worth developing thoughts on further? Worth shooting now? Worth adding to the conversation?

Resteem or share if you would like some visibility on it so people with better minds than my own can have a look.

Taraz
[ a Steem original ]

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These look like some good ideas. I've proposed similar ideas which I called "investor class" SP.

I'm not sure if 25% passive rewards would actually be enough, it may need to be a touch higher to compete with delegating to bots (even now) but it is probably in the ballpark.

The cold storage 'savings' idea is okay, but I believe there are plans for light wallets that don't have a whole account associated with it, and are free or at least very cheap and easy to create (doesn't require signing up with email, etc.). Since the sort of investment you describe is non-voting, it doesn't need an account and would probably be a good fit for those instead.

it doesn't need an account and would probably be a good fit for those instead.

Actually, having a quick think about it, indeed this would be a better option for an investor. Not only is there privacy, but they do not have to get involved in anyway with the social aspects of the platform - and perhaps that separation allows for more speculative behavior minus any emotional attachment. I know that for me, one of the aspects that changes my behavior with Steem is that I am public and looking long, trading Steem is different to trading any other coin I hold. Not great for a trading frame perhaps...

I'm not sure if 25% passive rewards would actually be enough, it may need to be a touch higher to compete with delegating to bots (even now) but it is probably in the ballpark.

Yeah, I would assume the same but figured for ease of visualization, a 50/50 would do for now.

I know that there are plans for light wallets those, but wondering if having an inbuilt option to replicate them might be good for onchain users. The off UI light wallets would be great for having a little account privacy though.

I guess this statement is part of the whole 4 week powerdown discussion?

Good idea of using the savings option as a cold wallet because I would say no one is using this at the moment. I seem to remember this did accrue some of the inflation like steem power but not sure.
I am not sure about the numbers though, it seems like giving away a lot imo (even if the rest is burned) and how are you determining the curation rewards in the first place? just a random 18% roi actually 50% of their vote at 100%?

The savings wallet doesn't earn inflation.

Yeah, the numbers are just spilt 50 50. However, what this would mean is that a speculator can earn on the principle and get the powerdown without risking any of it.

@theycallmedan mentioned a 5% burn for instant PD. That would be 50k steem on 1M.

Doing it this way means that that to pay the same, the 1m would have to be in the cold wallet for 400 days, which is a long time for a speculator and an investor would likely choose more active ways. This way an investor could have say 20% in cold store Earning and available, and 80 active earning more and influencing the community.

It needs more thought of course, but I think creating a cold wallet would be valuable in itself as it can have different security measures applied too. Then build from there.

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I like the idea of a turning Savings into a wallet address with its own private key.

I have a problem with the 25% "curation" the savings account holdings would get. That's A LOT for not doing anything. Savings account has interest, as far as I know, it's just set to zero. I'd rather switch interest on for it and set it to a certain (low) level.

In your presentation, it looks more like our regular Steem account would be the cold storage (and it is right now), and the Savings wallet will be the hot wallet, because you can withdraw from there instantly. But I agree the holdings in the Savings account, as you described it, should not have voting rights, either because they are inactive or because they are "hot" (as in potentially speculative).

I'm a believer in markets, not in burns or other artificial methods of keeping things "under control".

Yup, I also believe the Savings account needs revamping. So yeah, I find throwing ideas out there always beneficial!

Savings attract no interest I am pretty sure. I had a few thousand sitting there for weeks, and nothing.

The 25% isn't actually so much considering they could earn much more than that easily by just automating a random vote around the place. And because the difference between that point and the 50 would be burned to lower inflation, there is a benefit for all users. Also, remember that at the time of the bidbots, these accounts were taking 100%.

I do not know if this is an ideal solution, but I do think that with a little thought and work, it could be a relatively elegant interim solution where we could test how it works.

Savings attract no interest I am pretty sure. I had a few thousand sitting there for weeks, and nothing.

I can't find evidence that it has interest but it is set to zero, so I might be wrong. However, if I am not wrong, then you wouldn't have earned interest on your funds in the Savings account, because interest would be set to zero -- so no interest.

The 25% isn't actually so much considering they could earn much more than that easily by just automating a random vote around the place.

Yes, but they vote on something. Even if automatically. What would the 25% be applied to if they don't vote? On what rewards? All?

I do not know if this is an ideal solution, but I do think that with a little thought and work, it could be a relatively elegant interim solution where we could test how it works.

Yup, I am all up for sharing our ideas. I do it often. We'll see what comes out of it.

Yes, but they vote on something. Even if automatically. What would the 25% be applied to if they don't vote? On what rewards? All?

They were also voting on themselves for 100% return and back then before EIP, no flags downvotes.

True! I understand what you were trying to do there, to motivate inactive accounts not to influence the curation game.

It would hopefully give a cleaner representation of the platform and content discovery. Plus no need for the burnposts or sbdpotato perhaps.

Communities will help immensely here, IMO. We are still used to look at the main site, but soon that will be a distant memory.

But for STEEM/SBD reward pool distribution, that might still matter. How much, I don't know. Rewards might be shifting towards communities as well.

Yeh, the first iteration of communities will look very similar, but once the devs have some time and will to innovate for use case, they could look fantastic and highly varied.



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Savings account does not have any special interest feature currently. STEEM in savings earns no interest. SBD in savings earns the same as SBD not in savings. Of course, this could be changed in a fork.

Thanks for clearing this out for us! But SBD holdings currently earn interest?

The SBD interest rate is dynamic and set by witnesses. Currently it is zero, but there has been interest in the past and could be again in the future.

Thanks! Now I understand the APR setting witnesses have.

Here is my vision for this:
The idea to shorten the withdrawal time has long ripened.
I would reduce it to 1 week.
There is no opportunity to vote during this week.
As protection, white addresses are used, the change of which is possible under certain conditions (you can think about the conditions)
I like the idea of ​​white addresses to which I can deduce. Speculators move the price on markets around the world, so we need them like air !!! I am 100% sure of this
We need speculation and they are not there - all investors are here due to the circumstances.
I don’t like the idea of ​​losing 5% of the money I earned (are you not a bank or you want to take a step back ??? @aggroed or who is the initiator of the idea? - I appeal to you. Even if it is burned, I am against it.
I do not want to go to jail and no one wants to - I must quickly operate my own funds as I see fit. Today I vote, tomorrow I want to leave - only such conditions attract people and money!

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I think this is a very well thought alternative to the status quo and the current 4 week period being floated. I will resteem this and leave it in a comment on the Steemblog post to stimulate discussion.

I think while it isn't a full solution, with a little work it could be okay or, inspire something a little more useful than changing the PD period and leaving accounts less secure.

Oh! That is totally above my paygrade. I need to understand this better methinks. It is amazing how I think I understand what is going on until I don't.

I hope your day went well without the laptop. We have become slaves to them. Have you ever seen a cashier trying to count out money manually? It is a little depressing to watch.

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I am not sure I explained it well, but I think if there are people who happen to read it who know what they are really doing, they can blur interpret what is happening.

I used to work at McDonald's and in 3 years, my register was never out by more than 5 cents, and I knew where they had gone.... dropped onto the drive through road :) I am great at simple math and estimating things like percentages in my head... much above that and my brain collapses.

I am sure you explained it well. What I meant was I am behind the learning curve in some of it and need to get up to speed so I know all that is going on.

Ignorance is not bliss. It is just ignorance.

I believe YOU knew how to count back, but, if you give a cashier an amount of money that they didn't punch in, 90% of the time, they don't know how much to give you back.

Yikes.

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