I am too poor to fund this since I converted all my SBD and Steem into SP. However, I may have 10SBD someday if malicious hackers do not steal everything from me.
But, if you want to be a Steem blockchain hero and fund it, go ahead, just make sure it is :
Subject: YES! Keep Free Downvotes - a counter-proposal NOT to Remove Free Downvotes
no problem. I can help with the fund if necessary,
actually we can wait for 1~2 weeks after you have more rewards from your posts, since the community's focus will still be on the fights in coming few days. so take your time.
Now I'm thinking I should have left rewards on this post so it could pay for itself. Maybe some friendly whale can cross-post it somewhere and then it can get the votes needed to fund.
But I do think leaving both posts up for a week before doing the proposals will allow opinions and anything we obviously missed to be put into it.
I don't want to have this debate and then find out we missed some critical or obvious points.
The hardfork 21 has been running long enough now to have the necessary data that was absent when the decision for EIP was first made.
Actually I think the timing might be just OK for the proposals, because we can have one week to do research, collect data and discuss details, and the fights may also reach to some conclusion around one week (if everything really goes well).
I believe the essence of democracy is "discussion" / "debate", rather than "vote" (of course it's important), and absolutely not "fight". So let's do the discussion first.
Inspired by @stoodkev 's comments in my proposal, it might be better for me to submit these two proposals, in order to keep the other factors the same, including the authors, creators, start/end date, to avoid distract the voters.
Do you mind let me to help submit the this proposal after you complete the research?
You are more than welcome to submit the proposal after the research is completed, and yes I think it is fair for the same person to submit it as long as there is no confusion in the SUBJECT of the post.
I propose something like
No - Remove/End free downvotes
Yes- Keep/Continue free downvotes
I'm ok with some downvotes but there should be a system in place to stop downvote bots and spammers like that fool @camillesteemer . His system is toxic and a turnoff for new users.
We are collection opinions and research. The "NO" proposal to remove free downvotes was just ready first and I took up the offer to make a "Yes" - Keep free downvotes post.
Could we elaborate how the misbehaviors such as bidbot misuse, vote buying/selling, vote farming, etc. would rise with data, facts or examples? I also mentioned the worry of rising of these behaviors in my proposal, but I hope in the counter-proposal, it could show more details and data, so we can compare the two proposals with concrete data.
The solution with SMT/Communities is interesting, and worth discussing. But it would be nice to add some real examples. Could you please share a concrete example or an application that can be built with the SMT/Communities testnet, to demonstrate your solution is workable? Or maybe some existing examples with Steem Engine if necessary? For example, in the solution, will the free downvote by a Steem downvote abuser with 1M SP, be no impact to the Steem users of one of the SMT application? (It seems the free downvote still hurt the victim in Steem Engine, and could it be different in SMT?)
And I think it would also be great if this proposal could remove the part that are related to the fights regarding Tron/Justin, which is not quite related to the topic of FREE downvote itself. Because another proposal HF Proposal: Remove "Free Downvote" and Stop the "Wars" was actually written 1~2 weeks before the battle between Justin and Witnesses happens, but submitted recently during the drama, with the its purpose of:
we want to show how conflicts and debate should be discussed inside the community without fights and wars;
downvote seems to be a topic on their table, and this one may help to provide context, facts and data for the discussions, if everybody calms down.
This will help the discussion focuses more on the FREE downvote topic itself, and not distracted to other fights happening in the community.
actually written 1~2 weeks before the battle between Justin and Witnesses
Fair enough, I can edit out the part about Justin before we submit the proposals. I think we should wait until the war dies down a little because there is too much focus on it right now.
Yes we do. Any changes to Steem while this war is raging will not have the kinds of debate we want.
Yes. Downvotes is a topic on the table and it should be the 'second course'. Let's wait for them to finish.
I agree it is important to distinguish your argument (remove FREE downvotes) from the war which is different (remove ALL downvotes). The impact of those is completely different.
Upvotes should be enough of an incentive to produce quality but we need downvotes to stop abusive language, spam, trolling and harassment. I should also have the right to downvote or remove comments on my post.
I agree that downvoting for abuse of rewards is a grey area but hey if you want to act like that, go ahead.
Yeah it's quite obvious to both sides of this debate that downvote is needed to fight abuse.
The question here is more about giving 'free downvotes' which means downvotes that don't affect or reduce your ability to upvote.
So the grey area for abuse of rewards (which has been renamed from abuse to misuse by those in the flag community) remain incentivized for economic purposes. That's why we need 'free downvotes' to impact this. Without free downvotes, they are gaining for misuse while we are constantly paying to prevent misuse. It really allows things to get out of control and there was about a 1 or 2 year period when so much of the reward pool went to vote buyers and traders that steem looked like a mess to the outside observer.
I am too poor to fund this since I converted all my SBD and Steem into SP. However, I may have 10SBD someday if malicious hackers do not steal everything from me.
But, if you want to be a Steem blockchain hero and fund it, go ahead, just make sure it is :
Your valent efforts will not go unnoticed
:)
no problem. I can help with the fund if necessary,
actually we can wait for 1~2 weeks after you have more rewards from your posts, since the community's focus will still be on the fights in coming few days. so take your time.
Now I'm thinking I should have left rewards on this post so it could pay for itself. Maybe some friendly whale can cross-post it somewhere and then it can get the votes needed to fund.
But I do think leaving both posts up for a week before doing the proposals will allow opinions and anything we obviously missed to be put into it.
I don't want to have this debate and then find out we missed some critical or obvious points.
The hardfork 21 has been running long enough now to have the necessary data that was absent when the decision for EIP was first made.
sure.
Actually I think the timing might be just OK for the proposals, because we can have one week to do research, collect data and discuss details, and the fights may also reach to some conclusion around one week (if everything really goes well).
I believe the essence of democracy is "discussion" / "debate", rather than "vote" (of course it's important), and absolutely not "fight". So let's do the discussion first.
Glad to see and agree with this.
I think there is another Steemit meeting Wednesday. Let's wait to decide proposal start date after that.
Inspired by @stoodkev 's comments in my proposal, it might be better for me to submit these two proposals, in order to keep the other factors the same, including the authors, creators, start/end date, to avoid distract the voters.
Do you mind let me to help submit the this proposal after you complete the research?
You are more than welcome to submit the proposal after the research is completed, and yes I think it is fair for the same person to submit it as long as there is no confusion in the SUBJECT of the post.
I propose something like
No - Remove/End free downvotes
Yes- Keep/Continue free downvotes
sure. good suggestion. we'll make the titles symmetric.
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Removing the free downvote pool would bring back bid bots and shit. Removing the downvoting completele would a kiss of death to PoB.
What exactly do I have to do to oppose the removal of the downvoting pool?
Thank you, for now your opinion here is fine. But eventually, when and if I ever collect 10 SBD I will enable the proposal for voting. Stay-tuned.
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I don't let friendship get in the way of downvotes, that would be unethical.
Also "definitely" has a spelling mistake.
I'm ok with some downvotes but there should be a system in place to stop downvote bots and spammers like that fool @camillesteemer . His system is toxic and a turnoff for new users.
We could hard fork him out of existence and set up a morality and ethics commission with the sole authority to determine on such offensive matters.
We could also limit DV to accounts over 50 rep, 1MV and with active rewards with over 24hrs to payout to allow for decentralized revenge crackdown.
What do you suggest?
I agree wholeheartedly. But where's the link to your proposal?
It's not ready yet.
We are collection opinions and research. The "NO" proposal to remove free downvotes was just ready first and I took up the offer to make a "Yes" - Keep free downvotes post.
I appreciate the counter-proposal to HF Proposal: Remove "Free Downvote" and Stop the "Wars" This helps us to run the discussion and going deeper for this topic.
My two suggestions are:
It all comes down to bad timing. A lot of people are very distracted now.
And I think it would also be great if this proposal could remove the part that are related to the fights regarding Tron/Justin, which is not quite related to the topic of FREE downvote itself. Because another proposal HF Proposal: Remove "Free Downvote" and Stop the "Wars" was actually written 1~2 weeks before the battle between Justin and Witnesses happens, but submitted recently during the drama, with the its purpose of:
This will help the discussion focuses more on the FREE downvote topic itself, and not distracted to other fights happening in the community.
Fair enough, I can edit out the part about Justin before we submit the proposals. I think we should wait until the war dies down a little because there is too much focus on it right now.
I agree it is important to distinguish your argument (remove FREE downvotes) from the war which is different (remove ALL downvotes). The impact of those is completely different.
Upvotes should be enough of an incentive to produce quality but we need downvotes to stop abusive language, spam, trolling and harassment. I should also have the right to downvote or remove comments on my post.
I agree that downvoting for abuse of rewards is a grey area but hey if you want to act like that, go ahead.
Yeah it's quite obvious to both sides of this debate that downvote is needed to fight abuse.
The question here is more about giving 'free downvotes' which means downvotes that don't affect or reduce your ability to upvote.
So the grey area for abuse of rewards (which has been renamed from abuse to misuse by those in the flag community) remain incentivized for economic purposes. That's why we need 'free downvotes' to impact this. Without free downvotes, they are gaining for misuse while we are constantly paying to prevent misuse. It really allows things to get out of control and there was about a 1 or 2 year period when so much of the reward pool went to vote buyers and traders that steem looked like a mess to the outside observer.