Hardfork 21 is HAPPENING. What will change?

in #hf21last year (edited)

hf21 change coming v2.jpg

Hello Steemians, exciting times are upon us. On Tuesday, August 27th at 11:00 AM EDT, Steem will go through its 21st hardfork! We previously summarized the changes, but in today’s post we would like to help you understand what you can expect on 11:00 AM Tuesday morning when the hardfork occurs.

What is a Hardfork?

For those who are confused about all of this hardfork business, all you really need to know is that hardforks are a blockchain-specific term for software upgrades. As you probably know, blockchains are impossible to change by design. That’s why we call them "immutable." The chain grows as information is added to it in new blocks while the old information‒the information earlier in the chain of blocks‒stays the same.

This code has to be carefully designed because it protects all the tokens stored on the blockchain, all the social information Steemians choose to store on it, and it also governs the interactions between these two systems. This code has to be “bulletproof” so that as long as people are running Steem nodes, and as long as people are transacting on the blockchain, the chain will continue to grow in accordance with the rules embedded into the blockchain.

Updating the Rules

You can think of a hardfork as an update of the rules going forward. We can’t go back and change the rules that governed the creation of the chain in the past, but we can change the rules in a way that governs the future growth of the chain. This rule change is a little like taking a fork in the road. Some people running the blockchain may choose to continue using the old rules, isolating themselves in the process.

Because this change requires a firm commitment going forward, whether one chooses the new or old rules, it is hard. And that’s how we get the term "hardfork." It is similar to other software upgrades except that all of the nodes in the network have to coordinate their actions so that it happens at the exact same time. We have chosen August 27th at 11 AM for the next coordinated upgrade. One important factor in this choice was ensuring that exchanges were given enough time to prepare.

Maintaining Stability

In many protocols, hardforks are a chaotic event that threatens the stability of the ecosystem. This is because protocols like Ethereum and Bitcoin allow any motivated person to become a node and, as long as any nodes prefer the old software (i.e. the status quo) to the new, the result is a splitting of the chain into two competing protocols. Examples of these can be found with Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin Gold, and Ethereum Classic.

DPoS

With Delegated Proof of Stake (DPoS), while anyone can produce blocks, only the top 20 block producers as determined by stake-weighted upvote, are "canonical." In order for new software to be integrated into the blockchain a supermajority of Witnesses have to come to a "consensus." The Steem blockchain guarantees that if a supermajority of Witnesses begin running the new software, any blocks from Witness nodes that have not upgraded will be invalidated. This is a classic hardfork.

However, because a super-majority is required, and because the Witnesses are ultimately accountable to Steem’s stakeholders, the odds are maximized toward only positive changes being made, along with very little interest in creating sister-forks; chains that continue being run based on the old rules.

What to Expect

Hopefully all of this happens seamlessly and you don't notice much of anything at all. We, along with many community members and witnesses, have been testing the new version of Steem on our testnet for several months now and have performed the hardfork logic on several smaller testnets.

But as much as we plan and test, it is possible to run into a few hiccups shortly after the hardfork because that will be the first time that new code will be run at scale. Our engineers will be monitoring the state of the network carefully during and after the hardfork so we can react quickly to any problems, should they arise.

User Experience Changes

There are a few changes that will impact how you use steemit.com and other Steem interfaces.

Rewards

The rewards curve is changing. We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes.

Reward Split

Reward funding is being changed from the 75/25 split that currently exists, to a 50/50 split between author and curator. That means you will be rewarded significantly more for curating content after the fork.

Downvotes

A downvote mana pool is being added, which will allow you to make a few downvotes each day without impacting your ability to earn curation rewards from upvotes.

If you would like to learn more about the changes included in HF21, please read this post.

The Steemit Team

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First of all, this is a great opportunity for people to start manually curating the way in which they believe it ought to be done. No more excuses that delegating to bid bots is too much more lucrative. We're all so lucky to be the first people ever with the power to influence and incentivize the behaviors and development that we want to see in the future social web. Let's build that shit together instead of quarreling over "rewards" that don't mean anything else than dilution + lowered STEEM price unless we use it to create something others find worth joining.

This is a great opportunity to sell your free downvotes if you never plan on using them and to use bid bots to make sure all rewards are 20+ SP so you don't get cheated.

Hopefully, the stakeholders that have stayed with Steem through the bear market understands that min-maxing returns from selling down/up-votes doesn't result in profit, but a decrease in the value of their holdings. Let's change that.

@edicted is making a point that is logical. The reality is that most people's posts don't get anywhere near 20 STEEM without bidbots. That's just a cold hard reality. This change is making bidbots more necessary for content producers.

It wasn't always like this. Hardly anyone reaches that level because so much stake is bound up in bid bots. If we can return much of that SP to manually curate content and also build a new culture where people vote to bring value to Steem then it is absolutely possible for more creators to start earning those levels of rewards once again.

No the cold hard reality is that new people will loose interest before they even know how it all works. What they should have done is make post with higher value on it reduce the gain. And those with lower votes gain more. That is logic. Now they are kissing up to high sp people.

No the cold hard reality is that new people will loose interest before they even know how it all works.

We can't know this until we've seen how things play out. But I agree that it is a fair concern that smaller users, communities, and comments in general may suffer.

However, stakeholders can choose to avoid this if they want. We for instance build our curation system on @steempress to add support behind a large number of curation projects. So that smaller users who write original content and get engagement from others can quite easily reach 20 Steem in total post rewards.

Speaking for Steem in general, a lot rests on the assumption that a significant amount of the stake currently delegated to bid bots will go back towards manual curation, as well as downvotes returning rewards from vote farmers to proper users.

Like you said before nearly no one earns 20$ on their posts at the moment. The only people that do are those with either a big pocket or a big following. They will be earning more. But to be frank it is not those people that need to stay around to make a "SOCIAL" network. It are the small people that make or break a big system like steem. We have seen a decline in activity for months now. Because the small people don't interact anymore. Everyone is scrounging to get ever last bit of steem. And what do the devs do? Make shure the small people earn even less while the big whales earn more .... ?

@fredrikaa I think this upgrade is based on wishes how we all want it to be, but it's also based on 0% reality. You who were working on upgrade, should have known better by now

However, stakeholders can choose to avoid this if they want.

Why would they want to choose to avoid this if they didn't want to choose to avoid this so far?

However, stakeholders can choose to avoid this if they want.

Ah! that's the KEY question here. If they choooose to avoid 'this' if they want!! eh?

C'mon @fredrikaa. Please, start reading another kind of stuff. :)

I mean we are a SOCIAL NETWORK.. So why not use our voices for things we believe in instead of just making money.. I see arguments for both sides, but I like to personally upvote posts because some people post things I like and sometimes they post things I don't so.. I guess it's like voting.. You have a voice and it's up to you to use it.

I think if people on Steem just voted what they actually liked, it would result in everyone - especially those holding Steem Power - earning more money. Curation rewards and bid bot returns are not "profits" if you're a stakeholder, because it comes from inflation that dilutes your assets. To make real money is to increase the value of the token.

Yes to increase the value of the token is much bette rthan blogging and when we get bloggers to focus on posting about steem OUTSIDE of steem on twitter and youtube reddit etc we can bring in bitcoin holders to invest LARGE bags in steem I MEAN LARGE bags

but yeah its sad to realize that so many people would have a completely different outlook if someone early on at steemit inchad just set up a wolf of wallstreet style marketing dept that pulled in users to an inner circle to see how many new investors one single highly motivated individual could bring in and then TASK that work out to thousands of users... the blokchain is about to undergo things like thsi with TASK token and CAPTCHA and @steenm.ninja INV invite token and its possible distribution via @banjo discord bot for onboarding but we need @steemit @steem @elipowell to check out the work of inertia and maybe fund it to get a massive network of discord steembots issuing steem accounts but EVEN WITHOUT steemit incs help it will happen on its own thats the exciting part. steem is going to start working on its own in a free market way that will show off what steem is truley capable off , all the demand steem can drive froim tribes and steem engine trading and much more.

To make real money is to increase the value of the token

Really Sherlock? and how do you propose to convince some Indian or African or South-East Asian of whom there are many here that they should save their Steem instead of using their reward to improve their lives ever so slightly?

What the heck does Nationality or race have anything to do with this? Steem has never depended on anyone but a few wealthy whales (From all around the world) to find its true price, and there is no need to keep users that need convincing. They can sell if they want now and waste their steem on a few dollars of food , when they could have held their savings. You arent supposed to cash out of your stock market savings portfolio just because the prices are low :)
Your argument really came out of left field and it feels like youre actually upset about something else, and I understand the concern for steemians in developing countries but they shouldnt deserve and dont want special treatment. They knew what they were getting into, and many of us dont look a gift horse in the mouth.
Many of these people you refrence got a lot of steem for free and if they did buy it, they can wait the market out like everyone else for steem to find a bottom. There arent that many whales who even own very much steem so the bottom is bound to be somewhere near 7 to 10 cents where a few other whales I know got in (They wont want others to get in) So tell the people in developing nations to place their buy orders very low, maybe then they can become whales on steem and if and when we go back to $ to $8 range this will all have been worth it. or it can go down as far as people are willing to sell it to, but there isnt an infinite supply and it cant get too cheap without certain whales being unable to control their urge to buy millions of steem at less than 10 cents ... etc etc

You left out the important of "if you're a stakeholder".

My point was to make it clear that curation rewards and bid bot returns are not "profits" to someone who has bought Steem. Because those tokens dilute their existing stake at the same time. So if you want to get more wealthy as someone holding Steem, your focus should be on what you can do to increase the value of the tokens that you have.

So nothing you wrote made any sense in the full context of what I said.

Not everyone who has bought Steem has done so as an investment. Some have simply bought it as 'pay to play' to increase their enjoyment of the platform.
Always the talk of is of investment and ROI but this is not everyone's primary motive for being here.
Everyone who has 'invested' time here is also a stakeholder. It is still an unlevel playing field designed to exponentially help those with more financial wealth than those without. Exact the people Blockchain technology would benefit the most.

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My sentiments exactly, @nathen007.

I think both social and business are being harnessed here! Isn't it a win win synergy??

First of all, this is a great opportunity for people to start manually curating the way in which they believe it ought to be done

I read and upvote many articles. If my vote is worth 0.01 now, it will be worth 0.02 after. That's NOT going to change my voting or curation behaviour one iota.

Let's build that shit together instead of quarreling over "rewards" that don't mean anything else than dilution + lowered STEEM price unless we use it to create something others find worth joining.

Rewards mean a great deal to many people here.....not you, of course, you're living the first world dream which is great but there are people here from all over the globe, so try and use a global context to the discussion instead of your simple, rose-tinted first-world perspective.

No more excuses that delegating to bid bots is too much more lucrative

So you will be withdrawing your delegation to OCDB then from which you make a tidy sum each day?

I read and upvote many articles. If my vote is worth 0.01 now, it will be worth 0.02 after. That's NOT going to change my voting or curation behaviour one iota.

My comment here is mostly addressing the opportunity to get the tens of millions of SP currently delegated to bidbots to be used to curate to create a web that we want, and the potential impact that can have.

Rewards mean a great deal to many people here.....not you, of course, you're living the first world dream which is great but there are people here from all over the globe, so try and use a global context to the discussion instead of your simple, rose-tinted first-world perspective.

If you want to be taken seriously, then make arguments based on the content of what is said and not the identity of the person saying it. Anyone can earn Steem and become a significant stakeholder here. So the comment does apply to anyone anywhere.

So you will be withdrawing your delegation to OCDB then from which you make a tidy sum each day?

That's my plan. Although ocdb is not like other bid bots since it provides good content creators added opportunity to earn mroe Steem.

Good content creators . Again good depends on your starting definition.

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Shouldn't our main priority be to grow the user base, the price would then take care of itself?

These changes seem to most likely do the opposite of that, do they not?

Yes, this change will indeed deter new users. Create an account. Play a bit around, never get above the dust value, abandon account.

The changes are made to make investors rich. You better be an investor. This way you earn and do not need to write/post/comment.

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But without new users your investment is going down the drain. Slaughtering the goose that lays golden eggs.

Would you guys consider publishing some kind of rankings related to the amount of value posts bring to steemit (ie. backlinks, traffic from social media and search engines, etc)? This might allow bidbots to be more selective and only upvote authors who create content that grows the platform.

Survival guide? There is absolutely nothing in here about sleeping bags and hiding under the bed. I feel cheated.

hahah ! best reply ever ! you made them change the title .. HF 21 yo !

Sleeping bags will be having zippers removed in order to make escape easier when attacked by a bear market, @meesterboom ... Unfortunately, beds will be lowered making it virtually impossible for anyone to hide from being jabbed in the ass with a hardfork….

That's why I don't trust beds!

And what about steemitblog? Been cheated twice now; they changed the headtitle ...

Aw. I feel bad. I was only joking! :0D

...or to hang themselves from...

It's been a long time, since I have commented, but this is awesome! I have been so busy, haven't had much time for content consumption lately.

Hey dude!! Glad you are busy, your YouTube channel working well?

It's the same old same old with me!!

Yeah it is going pretty well! Just passed 70k subs. But it is still like full time work for not even half time pay! LOL Just launched another ebook on Amazon, a little mini cookbook. And started some merch too. Things are progressing, still way slower then I would like! LOL Glad things are well with you.

70K! You are laughing! Once you got that magic 100K Mark you are in turbo charged mode!! Awesome stuff man!

oh yes the coveted "Silver" which really isn't silver play button! haha Thanks man!! :) :)

Aw, it's not silver! Swines!

Let’s see what happens! I’m prepared! 🤑

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Wow I still can't believe at one point we were fighting for Ethereum for the #2 spot on coinmarketcap!!
https://cointelegraph.com/news/steem-chasing-ether-in-market-cap

That is amazing, just over three years ago. Now we know how much the altcoin market can change in just three years. The other top coins are still there though. Steem is the one that has lost its position majorly.

We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes.

That's really weird!

When I look at the graph for the convergent linear curve... I don't see it ever going above the old linear curve... why then would a post earn more after the fork?

->  

If I take that into a graph calculator I don't see this go above the old figures anywhere. Are you expecting claims to be worth more STEEM after the fork so that the same amount (slightly less actually) would be worth more STEEM in rewards than before?

I guess that could make sense as the globally distributed claims get less under the same number of rshares being generated through voting. Adding in some more of those free flags to the pool of votes, the same amount of claims might be worth even more in actual rewards... did I just answer my own question?

Some content will earn more from the pool simply because the pool is a zero-sum game in the short term. The absolute value of the curve doesn't matter, only the relative value. Whatever is reduced the least (which in practice is the higher end) will actually be an increase in practice.

did I just answer my own question?

You did!

Linear does not mean proportional. Your blue line is slightly wrong, it should not go through (0,0), there is a small SP gap that is deducted from each upvote - about 3 SP if I recall.
Look at the graphs in the old reward curve post - then factor in the general loss of author rewards.

Linear does not mean proportional.

And what is that supposed to mean???

I know... since HF20 50 million rshares are always deducted from every vote... that's more like 1.5SP I think... you wouldn't even see that in the image of the graph unless zooming in very very very close. But yes, I did not include it in the graph, it's totally irrelevant to my initial question.

Look at the graphs in the old reward curve post - then factor in the general loss of author rewards.

I still don't get what you are trying to tell me.

Please correct me if I am wrong. If I buy an upvote post hardfork, I will be paying curators 50% instead of 25%? I believe this will put the nail in the coffin of buying votes as a means to earn.

Actually, it will do the oposite. Everything about HF21 is hardwired to promote growth of the bidbot economy within the main STEEM ecosystem.

correct. the changes needed are minimal and, let's not forget, the value of any paid vote is relative to the value of one's upvote (of an upvote in general).

The price of bought votes will likely decline. Whatever other changes might also happen due to freer use of downvotes, differences in voting behaviour, etc. is more speculative and more difficult to predict.

I’m thinking some will still survive by increasing Roi to buyers from their curation. Some will probably adapt to a token as a means of paying back value. Who knows! 😂

Or curation trails might be the way to go just like it did couple years ago. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Did the custom json collision semi-solution make it into the fork? I've seen vague mentions of that but it doesn't seem to be in any of your posts.

At this point that's much more important to the future of user experience than the entire voting system.

#sbi-skip

 last year 

If you mean increasing the number of allowed custom_json ops per block, yes - that has been bumped to 5 per block from 1.

The complete release notes are here

I have only earned 20 SBD once or twice on a Curied post - before STEEM dropped. (A Curie used to be worth 50+ SBD. Now, it's around 9-10 SBD.)
From what I have seen, the vast majority of quality posters are lucky to earn even 1 SBD per post! So, the ones that have the means to buy their votes will do well from this HF. The rest of us will suffer.

What's your plan to keep good bloggers around? What's your plan to attract new ones? The life of Steem depends on content producers, yet every time we turn around, it's harder and harder to function unless you can afford to put in serious investment - and who is going to do that when the bloggers are leaving - or not even bothering to join in the first place?

I'm actually really excited about this, The way I see it. Is Authors will get rewarded more, Because people can make money just by voting. So for those people who are posting just for profit, Won't have to. This will hopefully drop the amount of posters but get those with power to ensure they are using their votes.

It's just like how the tribes have been, with the incentive to manually curate due to 50/50 rewards which is what I did. Steemit for awhile didn't give too much for hard work, except for your upvotes @kaylinart and then odd times you get lucky to get something decent.

It will be good to see anyone working hard on a post, get rewarded from more people upvoting with higher values and knowing you both get rewarded!

I really, really hope so! If so, it could be a real boon for Steem - and a model for the other blockchains to follow.

So for those people who are posting just for profit, Won't have to. This will hopefully drop the amount of posters but get those with power to ensure they are using their votes.

Hahaha Yeah! @kaylinart. I just wonder what the heck will be available to 'Curate' in an environment of exclusively pure c-u-r-e-i-t-o-r-s? ;p

The post says 20 STEEM, not SBD (which is about $3.40 at current price).

Good catch. Apologies.

Still, that makes the number around 6 SBD right now - only my curied posts get that much - and I'm sure the same is true for the vast majority of bloggers on the platform.

I really hope the hoped-for increase in curation makes up for the loss that most of us will see.

No apologies needed, it’s a bit confusing. I just wanted to be sure you knew!

I agree with you..From last 15 days, I am posting 2 to 3 quality post every day, I hardly make 2 SBD But I believe in Steem. It will rise as of now i am not earning enough but i am trying to build solid reputation inside the community.

The break even point they mentioned in the post is 20 STEEM not 20 SBD. That's more like $3.60 at current prices. Even somewhat below that, the effect is pretty modest. People are freaking out thinking they'll get completely screwed out of rewards if the post value is below 20 STEEM but mostly that isn't true. At 15 or 10 STEEM you may not even notice the difference given regular daily price change on STEEM of +/- 5-10% as well as other factors.

Lately, most of my posts (original and high quality) end between 1 and 3 STEEM. (Average 2.) I've been on STEEM 2 years, full time, and I work with a team of models, including my wife. We invested $5000 into STEEM when we arrived. Our current total is LESS THAN that! In fact it's far less, only $500. We have worked 2 years, and invested 5 grand, and it's down to $500. And we are putting out excellent content that is in demand. Will my 2 STEEM payouts be decreased by the new 20 STEEM break even point? I think so.
But we will get a fraction of a STEEM more for our curation, so that's supposed to make it okay?
HF21 is even worse than HF20 and that's saying something.

We invested $5000 into STEEM when we arrived. Our current total is LESS THAN that! In fact it's far less, only $500

In fact this is the most important thing. Your STEEM/SP is worth less because the price of Steem has declined, in large part because Steem has not been successful in executing on its vision.

That is more important than payouts. You aren't going to make back $5000 in losses (and hopefully make more than that) through payouts no matter what. This is a futile treadmill mentality. Work to improve the value of Steem.

People are much too focused on payouts as a source of investment payoff when they should be focused on the success of Steem and the price/value going up as a result.

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Pretty much hate all changes in this hf

All changes will hurt user experience. With users I mean those that create value by creating content.

  • As an author you will simply earn less overall. So creating valuable content makes even less sense now.
  • bots will have a field day, by simply upvoting popular content at the perfect time.

What steem needs is content creators to get rewarded for producing content people consume and enjoy. This goes against all of this.

Why not just pay all rewards to SP holders at least that would be straight forward instead of gradually destroying the value prop for content creators

The HF of course is amazing if you run a site for bots or any vote automation where you do not hold your own SP.

Rewards
The rewards curve is changing. We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes.

What does this even mean? Very confusing

So basically is it saying... if you dont make at least 20 steem on your posts, expect to start making less? LOL ok... if youre going to give more rewards to the people with more SP just fucking say it, nothing wrong with rewarding success. @mughat called it "ProofofProfit" and honestly you should reward people who get more rewards...

(Reply is to @steemitblog not you @knircky )

71 recognize another 71 my equal rep nigga

It's important to note that it is unknown how much of the new available downvote pool will be used, and that it will also change whether good creators earn more. Thus it's hard to state exactly at what level people will earn more versus less after the fork.

But it is a fair concern that this will harm small communities and things like positive curation on comments.

But it is a fair concern that this will harm small communities and things like positive curation on comments.

This is precisely my concern with SFR but guess I can't really expect a group focused on our kind of values to be large. Think our prospect in particular is bleak unless we make some drastic adjustments.

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It's important to note that it is unknown how much of the new available downvote pool will be used

...and where do you see, within this page, which is supposed to be an open debate (debate means all points of view should have the opportunity to argue their beliefs) comments that deserve downvoting?

Since it has happened, it means we are supposed to feel intimidated and shut up?

That is the new steemit?

There are plenty of comments that may deserve downvoting to remove rewards. Especially when it is low effort trolling, or just plain negativity. Then I think any stakeholder who cares for the platform and experience of the users who add value to Steem should downvote it to remove rewards and make sure it is instead returned to those to bring value.

That being said, I'm completely against big stakeholders being able to hide comments through downvotes, and think that part of steemit is not doing any good. Lastly, I don't know why people would be afraid to comment because of downvotes. It is not like not earning anything on a comment makes you lose something?

In any case, the main use for downvotes will be the many self voters and abusers who look to get away with voting on spammed low effort content/comments. Of which there are plenty.

I asked you specifically about comments here, in this discussion.
As for calling it trolling or negative...isn't that a matter of opinion? If I disagree with you, I am being negative or am trolling? Even if a number of other posters consider the points made valid and they reward the poster?

It sounds to me like a disrespect of others, since you are indirectly claiming that only your own opinion is valid and deserving of being upvoted.

It's indeed all subjective and downvotes are not meant to be anything other than the opposite of an upvote where token holders express their opinion on what deserves more attention versus less.

It doesn't have to be trolling or negative. For instance, when @knircky just gave a full downvote to my comment I'm sure it mostly reflects his desire to see criticism of the fork get more attention and rewards, and thus downvote anything else above it that he disagrees with. That is fine, and how the curation system is intended to work.

I don't know if he's aware of the fact that I completely agree with his concerns though, and that my positive comment was not there to speak in favor of the fork, but rather to state that regardless of it we need more stake being used to vote good content and retain users, and that the changed rules whether you like them or hate them is a chance to reset bad habits and try to do things better.

For instance, when @knircky just gave a full downvote to my comment I'm sure it mostly reflects his desire to see criticism of the fork get more attention and rewards

Yes... but then you Upvoted your own post .... after the downvote to Protect your investment in your post as well as your Rewards on your own Post.

While also writing this:

...the main use for downvotes will be the many self voters

I see several comments which are over-rewarded mostly due to self-voting (I already downvoted one at my own expense since there are no free downvotes yet, and I may downvote others if I see them too). It isn't that the comments are bad necessarily, but when some people see the reward pool as a personal feeding trough the result is that everyone suffers from it.

Yea this is horrible

I couldn't agree more.

It basically boils down to: If you are smaller than an orca, move your stake and posts to a Scot tribe or start using bid bots like crazy.

The market doesn't like this HF. Most users won't like this HF. This HF is basically a HF for the bid bot owners and whales and orcas who like to have fun waging flag wars.

Steemit has been fun while it lasted, guess its time to move our minnow/dolphin stake to #creativecoin and other scot tribes.

nahhh no no steem has to reward the whales orcas etc, they will bring the price higher

let them have flag wars they will be forced to buy more steem to fight each other, EVENTUALLY two political parties at opposing ends of a spectrum will get into a war on steem where each will go to their fundraising elements on each side back and forth untill we basically have the RNC and DNC both on steem :D Or maybe Indian or European political parties or West African might end up in a battle with SP on steem when we end up with people who may end up with millions to spend on marketing or campaigns... I am telling you, all it takes is that right investor and steem can spread like wild fire... some wealthy people REALLY enjoy crypto and the whole key thing is just more fun for them!

Reply to #knircky

Your comment was put forward by many of us when we were first asked about these changes. Those who make the decisions wasted our time, since they had no interest in listening to what the majority wish is; they married the naivety of coders to that of socialists and insisted curators (only) provide value, not the creators. As a matter of fact, if you can access those older posts, you will see discussions about the 50/50 not being fair to curators, but they cannot do it in one change as too many people will leave - so in the next HF they can change it to what it should be: 80% curators and 20% creators.

What is insulting is that we are told we , the creators, will earn more money because we are receiving a smaller slice of the pie. Listening to them, I felt like I was listening to the supremos of illogical logic, like certain leftist politicians in the USA.

I'll be honest, I've never drawn a cent to use outside Steemit; only drawn some smallish amounts to help Steemit charities and needy newcomers who could not post because of no SP. So I am not one of those who has been milking the system (which mostly the big accounts are doing, and that includes witnesses). Yet, because I do not agree with them, I am the enemy and they have already started flagging - not because of content, or scamming or plagiarising. No, just because I disagreed with them. That is a very strong signal and I cannot ignore it.

As a final point: We will become rich because our sP will become worth more, if Steem appreciates, not because of our SP growing in Steem size. So, if someone has 100 SP, they will become whales because Steem may become worth $8 each, but the SP will only stay at 100 or, if it grows, it will grow so slowly that we'll all be dead before we can enjoy the huge wealth it is supposed we will accumulate.

Nobody seems to have noticed that at least half or more of steemians are now on other Steem related platforms and as things get worse for them here, they will concentrate on using the ones where they are still able to express an opinion without being flagged, while also earning money.

Oh dear - did anyone notice the arrogant statement by #tytran ?

They can sell if they want now and waste their steem on a few dollars of food , when they could have held their savings.

So, needing food is an option we should not give in to, not if it means we can save for some future profits...which will be taken from us under some new HF...

As a matter of fact, if you can access those older posts

Oh no @arthur.grafo. You actually can access and read a good deal of those older posts and discussions summarized just doing click here. :)

I have no problem accessing them, I use SteemWorld - but thanks.

Anyway, I would not want summarised copy - creating a summary means someone judges what should be shown and what can be thrown out. I prefer to see the original and make those decisions myself.

I prefer to see the original and make those decisions myself.

erm... by chance, did you even dare to click on the link offered to find out that all the 'originals' already comes inside?

Then why tell me they are summaries? Summaries are NEVER the original, they are just what someone understood or his way of sorting out what they like or dislike.

As for daring...what the hell has that got to do with anything? My reason for not examining them is very clear - and you pretending it is not so, shows you are playing a game of your own, because facing the truth is not something you like to do.

PLUS, I mentioned a specific message exchanged between two people and my comment was meant to indicate I hope that person is able to find the old messages so as to see that I was not making it up, that it was actually said - so again, since I am claiming a certain something was said and suggesting that anyone who doubts it, that they return to read those messages...for some unintelligable reason, you immediately think you can play a power game by making me look ineffective and not daring to go view the message I spoke of?

All I can find in your messages is a certain large blank gap in your intellectual abilities - and it is such a pity you did not have the common sense to keep your mouth shut so that you do not expose your deficiency to the entire world.

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Creating content does not create value.

There is already a shit ton of content on this blockchain and how much value has been created?

In fact the value has rather declined by 99% and with it the ability to pay rewards to anyone regardless of whether or not these changes are made.

It is vital the we start directing rewards better toward realizable value creation. Not self-voting, and not content for content's sake. This hard fork is a step to aid the system in that direction, but cultural and behavioural changes are needed too.

An empty blockchain is a clean and efficient blockchain!
Maybe next HF, they could completely remove all content-creation? Just to keep the place free of spam, of course.

Better, value-adding content > no content.

There must be NO downwotes at all, not more of this censorship shit

I HAVE POSTED THIS REPLY AS IT IS- @luegenbaron

Sorry for not asking you first. But this is too good NOT to propogate-

I'm glad to see you explaining the basics of the hardfork in this format, something that was lacking before HF20.

I also noticed a surge in media coverage of Steem in anticipation of this - nice work!

@steemitblog, I'd like you to read and consider this post: https://steemit.com/@arseniclullaby/arsenic-lullaby-rant-everytime-these-guys-open-thier-mouths-the-price-of-steem-drops

Though it is lacking, um, tact, it tells of a serious missed opportunity when it comes to marketing Steem. Most users aren't that interested in nuts and bolts. We're interested in what people do on Steem. You don't have to be the mainstream to appeal to the mainstream, you just have to leverage those of us who are.

But don't take one of Steem's best content creators' word for it, take a lesson from those who focus on building communities rather than blockchains. Read 11 Rules for Creating Value in the Social Era by Nilofer Merchant or The Art of Community: Seven Principles for Belonging by Charles Vogl

This place has so much potential; let's do this!

Posted using Partiko Android

How exactly is the rewards curve changing? Some of us are averaging 5-6 STEEM on a good post, so it would kind of suck if smaller posters got pushed down. I know that there was talk about very small posts getting reduced payout. I'm concerned that this makes people who don't use bidbots get significantly less. I know there's talk about "well, this just impacts either end and leaves average users alone", but 20 STEEM per post does not seem to be an average user.

If you look at curation feeds like Curie, they're getting something like 9 STU, which might be 20 STEEM now but that's definitely not average.

OCD/Blocktrades gets people up to that threshold, but c-cubed does not.

Any of the smaller field-based curators (e.g. steemstem) just can't even hold a torch to 20 STEEM, if that's the break-even point.

Utopian gets good results, but they're not really a curation place.

If the shift is small, like 5% for people getting 3-8 STEEM, that's not atrocious. However, if that's a 25% decrease, those of us who rely solely on curation and initiatives like SBI for upvotes are going to really have to ask serious questions about whether we're getting anything for our efforts. Will we have to delegate to places like steem-ua or send our liquid STEEM off for upvotes from larger places so that we can hit the thresholds that keep our efforts worthwhile? That entirely defeats the point of an update intended to make curation better.

@loreshapergames The biggest vote of steemstem generates an approximate of 18 steem or close to 20 steem, that is to say "it is not enough", taking into account the level of quality of the article that the author must reach to obtain that vote. It's almost impossible!

Exactly. It's nice, but it's not anything that's going to motivate serious work to be posted to Steem.

Around 95%+ of my Steem posts I make are on other social media outlets I post as well; my statuses are the same across the board (posted on multiple platforms for increased visibility), whereas if it's a blog post, I post it all on here, then link to the blog post (on WordPress).

The remaining percentage of posts are exclusive to Steem, because they directly talk about in some way; I'm not overly motivated right now to make more posts exclusive to Steem, because - as was said before - if things don't happen after 7 days, then the window for earning potential from your is pretty much gone; visibility on the platform seems to be a bit tricky in many respects, especially for anyone like myself who has been here for less than a year.

I've received a fair few likes on my posts, but barely any comments, and I'm lucky to see even 0.001 STEEM on a post that reaches double digits. I've been starting to use the Tribes feature over the past week, seeing as it (hopefully) will increase my visibility somewhat, but also so I'm able to get some sort of reward (via tokens) for my posts, as in terms of STEEM, it's very easy for me to get nothing at all, even if the upvotes on my post reach the lower side of double figures (between 10-20 upvotes), I have a very strong chance of getting nothing for the time I put in! Not only that, it's very hard to know if there's interest in my posts or not, because I don't generally get many interactions other than upvotes.

This hard fork makes me wonder how people in a similar position to me (or lower), as well as those who are modestly above me will fare, because it really does seem like unless you're earning 20+ Steem, it's going to become a bit trickier to earn even the lowest denomination of it!

I'm in a similar boat, i don't get more than a few cents if any at all, on each post. One or two comments at most. It is a feeble existence, which may become more feeble as far as earning goes. Perhaps commenting and upvoting more will help?

At the moment, you are barely visible... Soon you are going to disappear off the radar completely.

The message of HF21 is Steemit doesn't want new users.

It seems so... but without new users, the value of STEEM could really go down further, and things would end up stagnating as a result because it's generally going to be the same accounts, especially after others leave!

People who use bid bots are likely to go down. Because unless the bots lower the cost of votes, it's not worth taking a 15% hit on every bid you make. Because now you have to share half with curators. You're more likely to powerup and self vote or vote on others content. In theory.

My question is this, though:

Why do bid-bots not just decrease their overhead? Once they have the liquid STEEM they convert it into SP, and the money that other people could have had by curating they receive instead.

This still does nothing to address the concerns with small content creators. How the hell do I get writer friends onto Steem when I know that they're likely to get cents on a dollar compared to what they do elsewhere and the big dogs are going to be the ones getting everything? With a week to get attention to your posts and get them up-voted before they lose value, there's no reason to post evergreen content on Steem when it could fare better elsewhere.

The only reason I'm here is because I wanted to make games and distribute them for free, and Steem seemed like a way to monetize that. Ultimately, I think that's been an absolute failure, in part due to how Steem's been faring on price (I don't believe Steemit has much control over this), but in part because the whole system is weighted toward people who have patrons.

The only reason I'm still around is for the community, but since Steem doesn't really have social features it's limited in that regard because most of the people I'm still sticking around to hang out with I'm interacting with on other platforms.

I think I speak for a lot of us who have left the platform when I say that we're demoralized and we don't have much faith in the system as it stands. To have changes that could seriously hurt people who are trying to claw their way up doesn't make sense. What portion of posts making 20 STEEM right now have done so on their own merits, versus being economically fueled?

The promise of Steem as a platform was that it would be a path to independence, and right now I don't think it's offering that to very many people. There are maybe less than a hundred people who could claim that Steem is anything more than a passion project or pipe dream for them. The nice thing about the linear system is that it's fair. I can see using a curve to weed out dust, especially if it's proven that a lot of very low value posts are bot activity instead of authentic engagement, but I'm not sold on HF 21 doing that.

How the hell do I get writer friends onto Steem when I know that they're likely to get cents on a dollar compared to what they do elsewhere

Where else exactly?

YouTube or personal blogs with ads or writing churn for blogs that pay $10 a piece.

It's not glamorous, and you sacrifice a lot of your independence, but it pays better than Steem does right now and there's more likelihood of exposure outside the network of Steem users.

Now you can't tell me that your "writer" friends make even one cent from writing on YouTube, and personal blogs might net something like 10 bucks every 3 months, if they're good. Which blogs pay 10 bucks a piece for "churn" exactly?

Steem articles have more exposure than just about every blog out there since Steem is not a closed system by any means and everyone can consume the content without any kind of barrier, like paywalls or membership, and to top it all off steem articles dominate search results based on the sheer volume of content and the numerous web sites that link directly to steemit or other frontends.

I don't buy the "you make more on YouTube" or "elsewhere" at all, you know what it seems like: foot in mouth.

Have you ever worked as a writer?

With things like Patreon tied to another content creation service, people make way more than people make on Steem. Ads suck, but between ads and affiliate links you can do okay.

Also, you'd be surprised how many blogs have outsourced writing. Any small news site is going to be paying writers, as are a ton of company and media sites. $10 is the starving college kid pay, too. You can make more if you really get an audience.

Also, you can't eat off of exposure. I don't even know that you're correct about how well Steem draws traffic, because it's impossible to tell the reader/upvote ratio, but I actually suspect that I generally have a smaller readership than upvotes due to bots that are trying to snipe curation rewards and curation trails. Steem links may get some search results. Even then, after seven days your benefit for any content you've posted is gone (and I know there are ways to work around this, but they're not super user-friendly).

Steem's promise was as a way to achieve independence.

I've earned more in five hours of freelance writing than I've earned for several hundred posts on Steem (I've invested money in Steem too, though I always bought super low so I'm not in pain due to the low value).

Now, that's exceptional because it was a twenty-cents-a-word situation, which is basically the skies opening up and raining money, but I could be pulling down a lot more money off Steem than on. The only reason I'm here is for the freedom, and I'm not even sure that's worth it.

With things like Patreon tied to another content creation service, people make way more than people make on Steem.

Which people and how many out of every potential thousand do that? You're saying that people make more "writing" for YouTube through their Pateron link than people make on steem but avoiding the facts: how many people do that, how competitive is it. All these blogs and content media web sites that pay their writers but which combined haven't a chance to compete with the ammount of money steem has paid content creators or the number of content creators that got paid and keep getting paid.

Steem's promise was as a way to achieve independence.

I seen so many things people claimed that "steem" promised them that the accompanied eye rolls are instinctual by now whenever I read such things.

With things like Patreon...

BAT Tipping Jars are going to replace services like Patreon due to greatly decreased fees and ability to tip lower amounts. A 1 BAT tip results in a 0.95 BAT deposit into a Brave Creator Wallet.... Currently 1 BAT is about $0.20

Right now, BAT tipping is active on Twitter, Reddit, Youtube, and a growing number of social media platforms. It's not too inconceivable that in the very near future, a content creator will be able to post on Platform Whatever and receive rewards into a single location... a BAT Wallet (currently on Uphold)...

Some BAT nice graphics

https://zapread.com
https://publish0x.com
Probably medium.com

Some alternatives for Steem

https://www.zapread.com/Home/About

Total Satoshi spent, try not to laugh at what a failure the donate model is, and calling it donate model is a stretch since a large portion doesn't even go to the author.

try not to laugh at what a failure the donate model is, and calling it donate model is a stretch since a large portion doesn't even go to the author.

Same model as Steem, only hidden.
// You get 1 Steem

  • "Cool, can I buy Bitcoins for this?"
  • Sure!
  • The exchange!
  • Cool, Steemit pays me dollars.
    // But wait, Steem doesn't pay in dollars / BTC, Steem pays in tokens. Who pays in dollars / BTC? Investors ...

Steem is a network worse than ZapRead, Publish0x, but without a system based on game theory. The fact that you can't see it means that the system is hiding it perfectly.

It's not the same model by any means, but nice try at asserting that a donation based system is the same as a stake based system.

// You get 1 Steem

"Cool, can I buy Bitcoins for this?"
Sure!
The exchange!
Cool, Steemit pays me dollars.
// But wait, Steem doesn't pay in dollars / BTC, Steem pays in tokens. Who pays in dollars / BTC? Investors ...

It does not matter what it's paid in, it's irrelevant squared, what matters is how it has value and why it maintains it. In a donation system the entire value rests on people spending money/giving money, on a stake based system the entire value rests on people staking more than extracting. If they staked dollars it would be no different, same for bitcoin or any other token/store of value.

Steem is a network worse than ZapRead, Publish0x, but without a system based on game theory.

The system isn't based on game theory, at best it utilizes incentive structures based on game theory, it's based on cryptocurrency communities and social media. The "fact" that you think donating money is no different from staking money means you haven't a clue as to distinguish between a zero sum game and a cooperative, everyone-wins game.

Worse than those oddities that have nothing to do with steem what so ever? Sure.

The other one is even more hilarious :
The distribution wallet which includes all their "sponsored" authors cash outs:
https://etherscan.io/address/0xF9879bB3230f86fFCebcA652C5FB6Ec4504309be#analytics

Exactly my points!
I get regular Curie upvotes - evidently, my content is of high-enough quality to warrant it. :-)
Between those Curies, I'm lucky if I get 1 SBD per post. (I see SBD, not Steem so much - I think many others are like that too.) It's a far cry from 20 Steem!!! (Except once per fortnight - the minimum time between curie upvotes.)

I'm glad to see curation getting attention - this is a GREAT thing!!!
But I'm one of the creators (because I need to create), and we need to reward high-quality content to convince creators to stay in Steem if we're to see Steem, as a blockchain, thrive.

I suspect the thresh-hold is way too high. As is said here by @loreshapergames, a smaller shift for lower levels (3-8 steem isn't unreasonable), it would be a much more manageable change for those of us who make up the majority (vast majority) of quality content creators for Steem.

How exactly is the rewards curve changing?

There is a link in the original post which answers this question.

The big unanswered question:

Did you guys fix the dust-level treshold for the HF?

Great question - made me laugh, though.

One of the biggest consequences of Hf21 that the chainlords have forgotten to mention is that comments work just like posts... therefore voting on comments is a guaranteed waste of voting power. So much for "social".

Oops, just threw away an other $0.03 vote, that used to be a $0.06 vote before the market rejection of HF21 by the markets, and will be a $0.00 vote ;-)

Before Steemit Inc anounced the EIP was to be part of HF21, you needed a bit over 1k SP at 100% to reward a comment above the dust treshold. After all of HF21 comes together, you will possibly need closer to 10k SP if earlier claims about the chosen curve turn out to be correct.

I hope, despite zero communication on the subject, they fixed the dust treshold for HF21. If they didn't, I think moving more stake (and social interaction) to #creativecoin will be my best option.

If more below 10k SP accounts will do similar, this little oversight by Steemit Inc might turn out to be the cause of an even lower value for STEEM. So, maybe if the social argument doesn't make a lot of difference to the chainlords, maybe minnows and dolphins voting with their feet and moving stake to scot tribes will.

This HF is the worst. The rewards. It says posts under 20 Steem get less rewards. This is going to HURT users who can't earn 20 Steem on their posts.

Next, people can flag without draining their VP. This will give flag bullies a reason to flag innocent people taking away hard working creator's hard-earned money.

This is a beautiful development for the entire blockchain. With these, we are expecting more investors as curators would have a better probability for ROI. Thanks to the Steemit Team and our witnesses for considering this.

Better days are ahead surely!

Cool. Hurry up :)

Please no :(

how you going frankvvv?

So, so. Most of my other cryptos are doing better than Steem :)

So the rich get richer and the poor get poorer...sad :(

Posted using Partiko Android

This is not true. These changes are designed to ensure that good content is more likely to earn more rewards and good curators are more likely to earn more curation rewards. That means that if you're a good content creator, the odds are that your good posts will earn more rewards. It also means that if someone who is just posting low-value posts and self-upvoting them, or using fake accounts to upvote them, they will be much less likely to earn much from that activity. They will also be more likely to earn a downvote now that everyone is getting some free downvotes. This will free up rewards that are being distributed to malicious users who are exploiting the system just so they can cash out, and make those rewards available to good content creators. These changes only impact the rewards pool, which is not distributed based on wealth except when people render self-votes. But these changes are specifically targeted at making self-votes LESS profitable and easier to police. So, in fact, the result should be the exact opposite of "the rich getting richer."

That means that if you're a good content creator, the odds are that your good posts will earn more rewards.

It's not only about creating good content. Take a look at the trendings. There are many low-quality posts. On the other hand there are also many high quality posts outside of trending.

Also in the non-mainstream categories even the best content creators will struggle to reach 20 steem.

Very good explanation, thanks! Now it makes sense to me, hope this will succeed for good creators

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My pleasure. I understand it's all very confusing. Unfortunately, when you're dealing with such a complex system, nothing is simple.

And whose fault is it that instead of creating a simple system, you created a mammoth?

The idea is to make things as simple as possible, but no simpler.

It seems to me that for us, a curation team who has spent years not being appreciated for thousands of hours of collective, voluntary work, can vote mostly below the 20 steem threshold despite having numerous high-end supporters and delegators (gtg, curie etc). This means that what we could argue as one of the highest quality sub-cultures on the platform, with a focus on STEM content, run by legitimately qualified scientists and academics and a dedicated team painstakingly quantifying quality and filtering plagiarism, can now, after years of effort, give its authors 57% less than they were getting.

Is this inaccurate?

Can you leverage on what is the definition of ‘good content’, a ‘good content creator’& a ‘good curator‘? And what does this HF21 have in place to stop the so called circle jerking where High value accounts keep upvoting every single ‘good quality’ post of their friends? What will the incentive be for beginners or low value accounts on this platform?

I'm afraid the answer to most of the questions above is: nothing
Can't wait for other "creative" answers on these questions.

be honest these changes are to reward the big fish so they can make more before steem becomes worthless

The big fish have so much stake in this network, they would lose the most if it were to become worthless

I'm only sticking around for the free speech outlet. I really don't expect to ever see the day that I start making any real money using Steemit. Congrats to those who got in early 3 years ago and made money.

@andrachy what happen to those who are getting rewarded by steemhunt . steemhunt give 1.20$ reward it means all this reward will be burn and author will get very less , it is against the author hardwork and This is not a so called social media that pay , Even no one on steemit upvote without paying him/her a money for upvote . So The big whales will start selling more upvote for poors who get less reward on post and want to avoid extra deduction

Its also designed so that people are incentivized to use bid bots to beat the curve. It is designed to discourage social interaction. To drive minnows and dolphins to move their stake to scot tribes. This whole HF is one big gamle that can blow up in our faces in more ways than one. The markets are clearly rejecting HF21, but what do the markets know , right? Or people who actually ran simulations to predict initial outcomes and incentives that favor an increased bid bot economy. Well, steem has been amazing while it lasted. Hope Steemit won't destroy the scot tribes in HF22, because thats where most minnows, dolphins and content creators will be hiding out after HF21.

Based on your response it seems like in order to try to combat the smaller fish who are trying to game the system you're enriching the bigger fish who are gaming the system more...?

I've been here for years and I haven't had any posts make 20 steem or more since the value of steem was much higher... Not saying my content is amazing either, but... It seems like the majority of posts that make 20 steem or more are because of bidbot use or because of being in the "in" crowd and have nothing to do with quality.

I think in the end, the majority of users who see this who are not "big fish" will probably not like that they are making less and that those who are well established are making more. I think it feels like a slap in the face to many people, myself included and I rarely get into the politics of steem anymore, but.. This just seems wrong on many levels.

If the value of steem were higher this probably wouldn't be as big of an issue, though it seems like doing this when the value of steem is so low is only likely to make the value of steem itself go even lower as the smaller users feel less welcome here as a result.

I could be wrong, but that's how this feels and it seems like a lot of other people feel similar.

This is very disheartening and makes me feel empty inside, I have to question my own viability. Bid bots are not an option for me because I live my life with honesty and integrity, I would rather quit than be a part of this bid-bot bullshit, it's as phony as the day is long. I see steemit walking towards a cliff with a blindfold on trying to pin the tail on a donkey, good luck with that. Irreversible mistakes are the downfall of many in history. I would not be surprised if many lower echelon users catch a ride out on the dolphin and minnow express.

campers.jpg

I'm a loyal hard working contributor to steemit. I have always avoided saying anything that would cause conflict, but in light of this new development, I felt compelled to express my opinion. Thanks for your acceptance.

See you on Instagram!

Posted using Partiko iOS

Sorry I'm not involved in Instagram, however if you would like to talk, please comment on my blog. Thank you.

What is 'good quality' content in your book?

It would be helpful if you would edit your main post and include some of this explanation. All over Steemit, this part of your message is neither being heard nor believed -- yet it must be clearly heard first.

Curating manually will become more rewarding financially relative to delegating to bid bots. Hopefully that will lead to a higher price of Steem because of better content being rewarded more than before.

You're right!

Posted using Partiko Android

I hope so.

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