Finding a space where vegans and meat eaters can agree to differ, and still be friends
Am I being naïve to think such a place exists? Maybe, but I like to think it’s possible.
Today I was listening to @pennsif’s alternative lifestyle radio show, and vegans were featured heavily. As I listened to a group of people whose diet is very different from my own, I was struck, not for the first time, by the thought that we are essentially coming from the same place.
There seems to be a fair bit of hostility on both sides of this argument, but how about we put that to one side and see where we agree?
Commonalities
I’m not talking about people who just eat whatever is around and don’t really think about it. I’m talking here about people who have made a conscious decision to eat a certain way because they believe that is best.
For the most part, I see people coming from a place of wanting:
The best for their own and their family’s health
The best for the health of the planet and it’s inhabitants
I think we all agree on these principles:
• Eat real food
• Food made by nature is better than food created by machinery
• Organic is best
• Homegrown is fabulous
• Meals homemade from scratch will nourish you the most
• Don’t eat too much sugar
• Avoid junk food
• Avoid processed foods
• Avoid GMOs, artificial sweeteners, flavourings and other additives
That’s quite a lot of commonalities, isn’t it?
Differences
Ah yes, there are plenty of those and this is what we tend to see first. But let’s dig a little deeper and look at the differences a bit more closely. To me, they fall into three categories.
Animal welfare
Consciously Aware Vegan (CAV): Intensive farming is cruel to animals. So that we don’t take advantage of animals, we must avoid eating not just meat, but all animal products.
Consciously Aware Meat Eater (CAME): Intensive farming is cruel to animals. So I will make sure I only eat animal products from animals that have been raised in a natural environment. Usually this means pasture raised, and in an environment where they can express their natural behaviour.
See, we’re coming from the same place – avoidance of cruelty.
CAV: But it’s cruel to kill other beings for our own welfare.
CAME: Is it? We all die. That’s the natural cycle of life. Insects must be killed to produce vegetable crops. Small animals are killed when grains are harvested. Is it possible to produce any food without something dying?
CAV: Eating meat is wasteful.
CAME: Yes, it certainly can be. It’s wasteful when only certain parts of the animal are used. Our ancestors used the whole animal, out of respect for the life it gave – the organs, the hide, the bones.
CAV: Most meat eaters don’t have any respect for the animal who gave its life.
CAME: Yep, undoubtedly that’s true. We can’t force other meat eaters to change their attitudes. But giving thanks to the animal and making sure we don’t waste are ways we could all make eating animal products a more spiritual practice.
Planet welfare
CAV: There’s no doubt on this one though. Animals are bad for the environment. For example, instead of using land to grow grains to feed animals, who then feed humans, it would be much better for the humans to eat the grains.
CAME: True, growing grains to feed animals is bad farming practice. It’s much better for the animals to be grass fed. And remember that grass can grow in places where other crops can’t, or in places that some animals can access but that would be hard to harvest.
Consider a mixed farming model:
• cows eat grass, and nothing special needs to be grown for them
• if they are milking cows, the milk can feed the humans, calves and other animals
• hens could eat the grubs that come from the cow droppings
• eggs are a good source of protein
• cow manure can help the fruit and vegetables to grow
• surplus vegetables can be preserved for the winter, but can also be fed to the pigs
• pigs and chickens will both eat leftover foods and vegetables scraps
A family who farmed this way would be able to support themselves very well.
(A CAME who is an experienced farmer or homesteader would probably be able to go into more detail.)
Health benefits
CAV: A vegan diet is clearly the best. Meat and fat clog your arteries. I feel fabulous and am so much healthier, now that I’m vegan.
CAME: Excellent, I’m happy that you have found the right way to be healthy.
CAV: Everybody should be vegan. They would all be much healthier.
CAME: Well, actually, I feel much better when I eat animal products. Our ancestors developed eating mixed diets. They were Hunters AND Gatherers. I think everybody should eat Paleo.
CAV: But I feel better not eating animal products.
CAME: OK, then. How about you eat the way that works for you and I eat the way that works for me?
I’m sure you easily see my bias in these theoretical discussions. But is there any need for ill will between us? Could we have these kinds of conversation, each choose a different path, and still be friends? Even if we think the other is wrong, can we respect their right to make their own decision?
Thanks for reading
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Hehe... Yes, your bias is showing ;P
Here's my take: I eat as consciously as I can. To me, it is all about the capacity of an animal to suffer. The cruel part is not when we kill the animal. The cruel part is that we breed them for that purpose alone, and keep them in terrible conditions while they're still alive.
Capacity for suffering... For example, I very rarely eat beef, mutton or pork, and feel bad about it when I do. These animals are intelligent and emotional beings and contributing in any way to the industry that makes hundreds of thousands of them suffer is just wrong.
I eat chicken rarely too, but a bit less rarely. They certainly do suffer but less so than cows, etc.
Fish, I don't mind eating once a week or so...
Shrimp, I have no problem eating at any time.
As for veganism... It's just too difficult for me personally to be a vegan. To be vegan and healthy ends up being very expensive. But my diet is made up 90% of plants, and I drink soy milk now. I still have a weakness for cheese.
Something I'm excited about: in-vitro meat. "Memphis Meats" is one company I know of that is pioneering it. I believe it is the future. Once it becomes cheaper to "grow" muscle tissue rather than breed animals for it, McDonalds and other will start using it. And I'll eat beef without feeling any guilt at all =) (Once a week though - still gotta consider one's health!)
Yeah, I wasn't trying to fool anyone, though a couple of people did misinterpret, lol.
Agreed, well partly. I'm ok with breeding meat animals specifically for that purpose, as long as they are kept in natural conditions so they can live a happy life. In NZ, all of our beef and lamb is pasture raised, so I have no problems eating what I need of those meats. Chickens are a different story, so I only eat free range chicken. I don't eat much pork, just because I don't feel good on it.
I have a weakness for cheese too, but think it doesn't do me much good, so I'm currently off dairy. But I avoid soy milk, as I believe it's an endocrine disrupter, especially for men. I tend to use coconut or nut milks.
I'm in two minds about in-vitro meat. I can see the enormous potential of it. But it makes me nervous, and in my mind it's like GMOs - we just don't know what the long term effects are going to be. Ironically, I don't feel the slightest nervous about eating pasture raised meat, as I think it's good for me, not a health risk at all. But I would worry about the effects of in-vitro meat on my health. Though I am inclined to think in-vitro meat would be healthier than meat from CAFO animals.
Each of us has to make our own call on what to choose, and for me the important part is making conscious decisions, even if they're different ones from the next person.
I'm in Brazil so... Hehe, definitely no meat for me. Even if the product says 'free-range' on it, I don't trust it here.
I'd heard about the soy-product EDC issue, but when doing a bit of research, it seems only particularly worrisome for people going through critical developmental stages... That is, teens and younger, especially infants. Not sure though... I only have it with my breakfast every morning, and it is fortified with all sorts of good minerals. Haven't noticed any adverse affects thus far...
GMOs: I've given up on avoiding GMOs... First, they're everywhere ... Second, after a bit of research, I don't trust the organic movement any more. They're now just as bad as the biggest food industries, exaggerating and sometimes outright lying about the harm GMOs cause. I think the worst part of it is exactly as you say... The long-term affects... Eventually, we'll find out, I guess. They've been around for quite a few decades already. Difficult to study though, like all nutrition. I don't envy your job as a nutritionist ;P
In-vitro meat: As far as I've read, it seems safe. Biologically identical muscle tissue. And I'd agree, certainly healthier than CAFO animal meat. Depends on the company practices though, I suppose. In the end, greed trumps all, so if there's a way to "grow" the meat faster and cheaper, it'll be done, no matter if there's a small health risk.
I thought South America had good meat. Is that not so? Or does it depend on which country?
My bottom line as a nutrition coach is usually, how natural is it? But it's not always as simple as that, and everybody's needs are different. So we need to be open minded about how to meet each person's needs in the most practical way. And sometimes that might mean eating foods that wouldn't be my first choice.
So I take all your points above about how you choose to meet your needs. You just do the best you can, and then don't stress about it!
Very well done my darling ;) If only people weren't such obstinate, argumentative cause driven shitheads.
Love your pointers at the end, sap your will to live...LOL.
Ah, the human condition. Or maybe I should say, how humans have been conditioned to be. Because I do hope and trust that our true, loving nature will come back to the forefront of society.
As a former vegan, I really appreciate this post.
When I became vegan, I was coming at it from a biblical, Christian perspective. (This already placed me in a politically incorrect place among the vegan community, and I found their publications to be antagonistic to my wider worldview.) I believe that God originally created human beings in a garden, where they ate plants, living in harmony with the animals, and there was no death. I thought that I could return to this "perfect" way of eating and human-animal relationship. It worked for a couple years before I suffered from severe fatigue, tooth decay, slow hair and nail growth, and 40+ day menstrual cycles. I had to come to grips with the fact that my body was not a "perfect" Garden of Eden body and the plants I was consuming were not "perfect" Garden of Eden plants. Those plants couldn't give me everything I needed to be happy and healthy, and my body couldn't even absorb and use all of what they were giving me.
Since this realization, I have tried several different nutritional approaches, constantly refining the ones that work for me and discarding the ones that don't. The tradition-oriented approach of the Weston A. Price Foundation has had a significant impact on my own trial and error approach.
I also had to let go of some of my perfectionist and idealistic attitudes. Due to our income level, my husband and I can't always afford organic and/or humanely-raised food. I have accepted that this responsibility is not mine to shoulder. When I am purchasing the best food that is available to me and that I can afford, I am not culpable for every person's actions toward that food along the way. I do not control the price or selection. I do not feed, care for, or slaughter the animals I eat. I do not plant, chemically spray, or harvest fruits and vegetables. I am not in charge of legislature pertaining to agriculture and food production, and I am not a wealthy owner of a food company, raking in profits from outrageously-priced health food. I am content to do what I can, let go of what I can't, and allow others to make their own decisions without criticism. What I eat and who I am are separate. It took me quite some time to accept this, as I began conflating the two at the age of 14 when I decided to practically starve myself.
Anyway, bravo to you for encouraging dialogue about this highly-polarizing topic!
That biblical, Christian perspective is interesting to me, as I just came across it yesterday in another post. But it also perplexes me, as it seems clear to me that after the fall, humans were very different beings, with different needs. Jordan Rubin's book "The Makers Diet", which excludes pork and shrimp for example, but not other animal products, makes more sense to me as a Christian guideline.
I'm also a great fan of Weston Price's approach. Given that his expectation was that he would find healthy vegetarian diets, the fact that he didn't find any vegan traditions is significant. I did a couple of posts about him when I was first on Steemit.
Looking at another traditional perspective, a correspondent from India once told me that the monks were vegan because they were living a spiritual life of contemplation, but it was understood in India that only the monks could do that. Anyone living in the physical world needed some animal products for sustenance.
Very wise. In the end, that's all any of us can do. Make the best choices we can for our overall health - physical, emotional, financial, spiritual - and not stress about the rest. After all, the worry is probably as harmful, maybe more. As are any feelings of hatred that we might project onto those we disagree with.
Great post @kiwideb, and perfect timing for my concerns recently.
I've posted it in the Paleo-Trail update just now.
https://steemit.com/paleo-trail/@paleo-trail/paleo-trail-update-march-10th-2018
I know you and I agree that for us personally, Paleo or similar is the way to go. But we both respect the right of others to make different choices. So I like your position that paleo-trail should be open to any kind of natural, whole food diet, anywhere on the vegan to carnivore spectrum. Processed food is the common enemy, lol!
This really is a touchy subject. What it boils down to though is respect. We have to respect each others' decisions and we have to realize that there are reasons why other people chose the things they chose. Really though, dictating our own lifestyle on others is not the way to go, and while we can tell people its benefits, it's ultimately up to them whether they'll choose to follow that or now. I like the commonalities you stated here, Deb. I think it effectively shows that we're all not so different in terms of what we choose to it. Great write-up!
Hiya! I thought you'd be too busy with wedding prep to have time for much commenting, so good to see you here. You've summed up my point very succinctly. Respect and understanding that we can't know what is best for another person. Hope your week is going well.
I am haha! I just try to sneak in some Steemit time especially to comment on my friends' posts.
It's been really stressful, but we're trying to hang on. Only a few more days and the stress would be all behind us haha! Hopefully...
Excellent conversation. I eat meat and respect vegetarians. Eating more and a variety of vegetables is healthier than not. But protein is needed when living an active life.
I often disagree with the conclusions vegetarians come to. But I absolutely respect their compassion for animals, and their right to make their own decisions on how they live their lives. Hopefully, being able to have the conversations without disrespect would make it easier for each person to find their way.
Thanks for this post, I hope those of us advocating for more natural, traditional diets can find common ground.
I try really hard to get along with vegans, especially since I was a vegetarian for so long. But honestly, the "You are a murderer who doesn't care about the Planet and you're stupid" argument puts me off quite a bit.
Most of the division in our world today really seems to come from people trying to "win" on the internet though. It's like the more objectively correct your argument is, the harder they try to destroy it. I don't know how we will ever get around that.
When I talk to people in real life it's much easier to find common ground.
I don't care for that style of argument either. Although I mostly see it from vegans, I'm sure there are plenty of meat eaters who are just as intolerant. I agree that the need to win is what gets in the way of any kind of mutually respectful and useful discussion. All we can do is do our best to be open minded ourselves. Like Michael Jackson said, let's start with the man in the mirror. I know you are.
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You can see, that you are not a lover of meat.
It is obvious that eating grain is healthier
than eating meat and eating grain and not
meat we will save many animals ..
I particularly like to eat more
grain I get it more tasty because
my mom prepares it delicious .. no doubt
any.
Actually, I am a great lover of meat, and tasty as grains may be, they make me ill. But my point was that I can hold that view, and you can hold your view, but we can still be friends. Agreed?
I like meat, but I do not eat it as much as I was raised around a vegetarian family, and being a friend seems great. lol
Thank you for posting this @kiwideb. This is so funny yet at the same time a serious issue to consider. You are blessed to live in New Zealand but in most of the world we really cannot support livestock for eating purposes. Frankly I am really weak without some meat in my diet and I'm sorry that another life sustains my life. I have responsibility to use this life for a good purpose then.
I wasn't really intending to be funny, exactly, but I'm glad it came across as a more light hearted approach to the differences in opinion that abound. I hope that, in time, we can all regard those differences more gently.
We are blessed to live in NZ, and I am grateful for that. But I'm still inclined to think that even in places that can't support much meat eating, they could still support some animal foods. And I don't think you need to feel guilty that you need some meat. But that's just my opinion...
Thank you. Maybe I was just in a light mood. I feel even better now. I guess I have a strange sense of humor. I remember a vegetarian folk song growing up.
"This is what we implore
No more meat please."
And yes. There is meat in other countries. Just not so natural.
Light moods are good! Humour is good, whether strange or not!
That is one of the things I find sad, the places where the meat isn't naturally raised. I would love it, if everybody had access to healthy meat. I do agree with the vegans that some meat is not healthy to eat. If I lived somewhere else, that would be a big problem for me, as I need meat every day, but wouldn't want to eat CAFO raised meat.