Are Women Who Dress Provocatively Responsible for Unwanted Attention, or Should Men Learn to Control Themselves?

in #ecotrain6 years ago

Are women who dress provocatively responsible for unwanted attention, or should men learn to control themselves? This is the ecoTrain question of the week.

Well, now. This is a fun one. I figure anyone who has ever had a look at my page probably knows how I feel about this, but I'm gonna tell you anyway. Honestly, how is this even a question still?! This is a multi layered question, and I want to talk about several different aspects.

First of all!!!

If you could see me now, you would see my finger up in the air. Let's get at the real root here. At the very core of this is the totally mistaken idea that anyone other than you is responsible for your behavior - or even your feelings. No one makes you do anything. No one makes you angry or sad or anything. We are always at choice. Yes, other people's actions and words affect us, but we are responsible for us. Personal responsibility. It's what's for breakfast.

I don't care if she's drunk and dancing naked on your bed. I don't care if you are stupid drunk either. I've been drunk as drunk gets, and I'm always responsible for my actions. You are responsible for your actions. Period. Full stop. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.


Are strawberries provocative?

I have two sons. One of them is 6, but the other one is 20. His dad is pretty much a non entity. So, I had to do all the talks. I taught him personal responsibility, and I taught him to respect other human beings. He knows other people's bodies belong to them and to always ask for consent. Shockingly, he's capable of controlling himself, even though he's a man - and a young man at that. That's another issue I have with this whole idea. It assumes men are sex starved uncontrollable maniacs. It's insulting.

Let’s dig in to another level

Of course rape isn't the only thing we are talking about here. What about cat calling? Well, read the above paragraphs to know who is responsible for that. Also, just wondering how successful it is? I just want a statistic of how many men who holler, “Hey baby!” or something more disgusting from the porch hanging out with their buddies actually get laid. It's rude. A woman is not a hunk of meat, and you look creepy and stupid when you cat call. Just being honest here. You also make women uncomfortable because we don't know if you're one that might follow, stalk, rape, or if you're one to just sit there and holler. Clearly if you cat call, you don't respect women. Considering you are quite possibly a rapist is not a huge leap. Now, just to clarify, a compliment is different from a catcall. When in doubt, keep your mouth shut.

“That shirt looks nice on you” is a compliment. “Your hair looks pretty” is also a compliment.

“Nice tits” is not. Even if my tits are nice, which they are, but don't say that. It's weird, creepy, and gross. Same with “you’re looking sexy.”

Again, if you're not sure, don't say it. Words are sexual. Don't invite yourself into my sexual space without my permission.

The question everyone loves to ask.

Why do women dress this way? I'm here for you with the shocking answer. It's none of your fucking business. Maybe she likes feeling sexy. That has nothing to do with you. Maybe she is dressed up for a special night with her partner. Unless that's you, that has nothing to do with you. Maybe she has low self esteem and seeks attention and validation through sex. Again. None of your business! Maybe she thinks her value is in her body because that's the message she has received since she was a small child from a culture that sees women as lesser, as property, as hunks of meat for men's pleasure. Well, now. That is your business because each and every one of us needs to work to change this. This is rape culture.

Honestly, what does provocative dressing mean? Am I dressing provocatively if a shoulder is showing? What if I'm wearing short shorts? What if you can see my pubic hair? I really don't think pubic hair is provocative. It's kind of a weird texture. Is cleavage provocative? What about nipples? What if I'm nursing? Can men dress provocatively? No offense guys, but it doesn't get much skimpier than a speedo, and those are just gross. I don't want that much detail outside my bedroom. There are a lot of Mennonites here in Belize. They cover everything. Ankles are provocative to them. Do you see how this is getting sticky? Let's just dissect this word. Provocative shares a root with provoked. As in I have provoked you into action by my clothing choices. Well, that takes us back to the beginning doesn't it?


Shoulders covered, skirt past the knee, no cleavage. Is this provocative?

Fragilé. It's Italian. (This is a movie reference. I'm not insulting Italians)

This week I saw something on Facebook about how men are intimidated by intelligent women, even the ones who say they love intelligent women. I absolutely know this to be true. It was a truly brilliant series of tweets about how this phenomenon affects women. One of the theories about how this comes to be is of course the fragile male ego. From young, girls learn to be delicate in how they talk to men, how to soften blows, how to protect their fragile egos. As radical as I am, I see my 4 year old daughter doing it with my 6 year old son. It's so disgustingly pervasive.

Here's how that connects to this conversation. Being nice can be horribly dangerous. Not wanting to hurt someone's feelings can land a woman in a very bad situation. When he's a friend, it happens so easily. I know of what I speak. So a man is giving unwanted attention, and a woman is trying to be nice instead of telling him to piss off. He's not getting the polite “no thank yous” and the non verbal cues. Suddenly there's a problem. This has to stop. We need to encourage our girls to speak their truth and teach our boys that their worth is not dependent on what anyone else thinks anyway and that a rejection of sexual advances does not necessarily mean there's something wrong with you or that you're gross or ugly or whatever.

As always, I look forward to the comments. Those in the men's rights activist community should be aware, however, that I'm a feisty bitch these days.

Much love, y’all!

As always, all pics are mine or pixabay unless otherwise noted.

)](https://discord.gg/qfu4yRE)

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yes! love this one. call a spade a spade and it begins and ends with a lack of taking personal responsibility. the fragile male ego that has been coddled for far too long just saw the light through your post! shine and love that you're teaching your sons!! no matter if she's drunk and dancing naked in your bed... thank you!! why are we even still talking about this?! ugh!

Thank you! It is always a joy to feel so totally and completely heard!!

I think coddling the male ego is such a disastrous practice. The idea they are unable to handle criticism and rejection is ridiculous. The only reason they can't is because they never had to. It's hogwash.

Kudos to you for raising an aware young man who appreciates and understands consent. The cultural norms are soooo variable. Seeing western tourists here in Thailand dressed very provocatively by Thai standards, I see it from multiple perspectives. As a woman here I vascilate and sometimes am just openly rebellious. Someone told me recently my school-run-yoga-pants were "too provocative" for our small conservative village cos they showed the curves and outline of my femininity. My response? I suddenly have an urge to wear more yoga pants!! haha... The weird thing here is if I dressed as a cheap stripper-bar girl, I would be accepted and honoured cos I am "working" to feed my family. So what I have learned here in conservative Asia is that it is not the clothing that is taboo, but a woman's personal pleasure. Next week my natural products biz will be launching a new intimate massage oil called "Pure Pleasure" - organic, for shared-personal massage & pleasure. Haha... some fun times ahead!! :)

So what I have learned here in conservative Asia is that it is not the clothing that is taboo, but a woman's personal pleasure.

wow keen insight!! this is definitely a deeper layer of these "shoulds" that are placed on women. and if we are going at it for our own pleasure, that's different than doing it to pleasure men. very interesting! hope your intimate massage oil is a smashing success!!

I totally agree with @mountainjewel. That's a really important insight and distinction. It really is more about how much it pisses them off when we take care of and nurture ourselves.
I'm super proud of my boy. He's really amazing. He works hard, is super responsible, is a wonderful friend, and loves to play and be happy. He just couldn't hardly be more awesome.
I totally feel caught up in cultural issues too. On one hand, I feel really strongly about respecting others' cultures, especially when I'm living in their land, and I think for the most part I would respect their norms. I would wear a hijab if I went somewhere that was seen as important, particularly if it was important to other women. That said, I would definitely wear yoga pants daily cause that just seems over the top a little bit to me. I can honor your culture and still be a part of mine. If they're wonky over yoga pants, that oil is gonna be scandalous, but I bet you'll have some women coming to you secretly!!

I hope there is a QUEUE of women IN YOGA PANTS wanting to lavish themselves with organic yumminess while they learn to give and receive pleasure to themselves!! Cos only when we can feel that fullness that we created within ourselves do we move from being takers in a relationship towards being partners. Only then do we really stand a chance of healthy intimacy with another. kudos to you for raising a boy child that can help to begin to change this toxic "thing" that mostly festers between men and women. Truly you are a supermama! :)

Oh my lord, if there is a queue of women in yoga pants, promise me you will take a picture!!!
At this point I have given so much over the last seven years, that I am just empty. I am totally spent. I can't even begin to imagine ever wanting to be in a relationship ever, ever again. I wanna be a sea witch in my little hut by the sea.
I have to give the boy lots of credit too. He came into the world wired pretty well.

mmm, passion!
Great power post.. id like to pick up on a couple of questions / points.. You asked:
"Honestly, what does provocative dressing mean?"
So i think this has to do with how you carry yourself and where you are etc.. its not just what you wear, but how you wear it, and where you are when you wear it!

this is a really complicated topic.. but i think that we all have to take responsibility for our actions to Some extent.. and where that lines is will totally depend on you! The way I see it is that the whole issue is one of so many symptoms of a totally messedup and very ill culture or society that is becoming cloned around the world.. it is totally crazy what is happening!

when you bring a child up, as you have.. with some balance and great feminine qualities. all these problems seem to Vanish!

I'm a passionate woman, that's for sure!!! Especially these days. I'm rediscovering my power, worth, and voice.
I agree with you that it's more about how you carry yourself than what you wear. My point is that, even if a woman is really trying to feel and be sexy, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with any man, and it almost certainly doesn't have anything to do with every man. I really and truly don't see how a woman has any responsibility to bear based on what she wears or how she carries herself. Now, if she rapes a man or another woman, clearly she bears responsibility, but nothing she can do or say can justify a man invading her space physically or even verbally.

Without a doubt, raising balanced, kind, gentle, respectful, and thoughtful children is crucial!!

Fragilé. LOL. It's a major award! Great article.

Thanks for your sweet words and also for getting the joke!!! I love that movie!!

Well presented, and I agree with you on all but one item, intelligent girls!

I would expect MY Son to offer a naked, drunk Girl (If he ever got in that situation to begin with) clothing and a ride home! Any less, and he would need to deal with me!

That said, Intelligent girls are infinitely fascinating! I met my Wife when she was 13, and I was totally blown away that she could carry on her half of an intelligent conversation! She ran, but I couldn't let HER get away! We were married seven years later (I told you she was smart...that was her only error, LOL); that will be 41 years ago this month. The single thing that finished Me is she was always SMART; she has always been pretty, but her intelligence was a beacon I could never ignore!

SO GIRLS, do Not play dumb! You do not want the kind of Man that will attract. It matters little if it takes you an extra five years to find a Man you can respect, that will value YOU!

Otherwise, you will spend your life explaining things to a half wit! >:(

Very true. Finding a man who valued my brain definitely would have been wise. At this point I am pretty well done with men and content to live on my own. I offer this advice to my kids though. No one wants to spend their life with a half wit or with someone who makes himself feel better by making you feel dumber.

Sadly true, there are a lot of stupid people out there, Just keep looking!

Get a stupid partner, and you are unevenly matched; and nothing works! >:(

A friend once told me that you can't yoke an ox with an ass, and that definitely applies here. He's not dumb so much as lazy.
I really think I'm done looking. I mean, time will tell, but I remember my nana saying she would never marry again after my grandfather died young. He was a pain in the ass, and she just didn't want the trouble again. Such a shame she was treated like that too. She was the kindest person that ever walked this earth.

Sorry she had so much trouble! Not every marriage is the best possible environment. She sounds like a great Lady!

We were blessed by having Debbie's Mother stay with us for two plus years, and I still miss her, a lot! :)

Well, he was who he was, and she loved him, but she sure put up with a lot. That's awesome you had a good relationship with your mother in law. My dad and step dad both loved my nana. My dad came to her funeral in fact. I'm lucky my parents got along well once they divorced. I hope my ex and I can do that too.

I was friends with her parents for years, before I met Debbie. I bought my first ham Radio from her Dad when I was 12. I loved them Both! He was my mentor in electronics, and got me interested in Ham radio, which I still do.

Your idea of good relations is the best way, for yourself and the kids. Stay safe! :)

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