Revisiting 50/50 curation

in #community5 years ago (edited)

Distribution of Steem is important and while people are still trying to earn, the end goal is to have Steem underpin and stabilize the platform so that SMTs are able to have a strong foundation to build upon. Due to the way the start was however, the distribution is going to take a little longer than expected unless, something changes.

@theycallmedan has brought up the 50/50 curation conversation again as he believes distribution of Steem is important. This is something that has come around a few times over the years and will likely come around a few more before they eventually decide to run the experiment again. I have written about this a few times before but I am going to take some excerpts from this post six months ago as there is no point rewriting it:

One thing that has been discussed for about as long as I can remember here (my first day) is 50% curation rewards, linear/superlinear voting and incentivized flagging. Here is a post by @kevinwong covering these three things with continued conversation in the comments section. Go have a read if you dare and see what engagement and people who care about the platform actually look like.

Honestly, I am far too limited technically to look at the mechanics of the linear/super linear or the incentivizing of downvotes aspects but, the 50/50 curation I do have some experience with. Recently I signed up to smoke.io (Steem clone) that has 50% curation. I didn't start with nothing though, I have held smoke for over a year now and traded here and there and have enough smoke to be a little Orca. What this means is that as far as the platform goes, my vote is pretty decent.

Now as you know, I spend a great deal of time on Steem which means, I don't really have time to post over on Smoke but, I do have time to go over have a read and throw some votes. The 50% return means that I am able to never post but still increase my returns at a rate similar to those I vote on but, not at the same percentage of growth. What I mean by this is that if I have 50k smoke and my vote is worth 10 smoke, getting 50% equals 5 smoke.

This is not an enormous amount but, for someone that only has 50 Smoke currently, it is 10% return for them. If we could both sell immediately, we would both sell at the same price and value, the rich getting richer is not the case once you take away the starting point. If we look at this over the space of 100 votes, I would get 500 smoke, they would get 500 smoke and we would both be able to power up and have that additional 500 smoke vested draw on the pool.

Over 1000 Votes, I would have grown by 5000 Smoke Power to 55k they would be a Smoke Dolphin with 5000 smoke power. Percentage wise I would have gained 10%, they who started at 50 smoke would have grown 10,000%. But again, if we both sell our gains, we have the same amount. Now, I might support 10 creators and each will have 500 instead but, they will still all have the same potential to draw from the pool as my own increase. Unless they sell.

To continue...

Now, what I would like to add to this 6 months on is that I have hardly posted on smoke.io but, I have been voting consistently daily for a little over 6 months now. What effect has it had? I have grown about 30% in stake in that time. But, what about the people who have been posting and engaging from their zero point? Well, some of them have become orcas. Yes, from zero to 50k in 6 months. They have of course been the ones who have engaged and kept in line with the niche topic but, that shows the distribution process at work in a small community. Would it be the same here?

I think so - but it is hard to say until it is tested in the wild.

As @theycallmedan has also mentioned recently and I have spoken about before too is, SMTs will be the earner for income, Steem the power that stabilizes the foundation for it. Steem needs to go wide enough but, it also needs to go to people who aren't just going to sell it at the first opportunity and instead use it to keep distributing the pool outward. To incentivize the distribution part, there has to be the incentive to vote and, that just isn't there at the moment as there is too much 'cost' to distribute. People want to be able to grow as well as distribute but it is too much "one or the other" at the moment.

If there was more incentive to actively curate, there would be more curators curating rather than selling votes which means, even if the return is less for content creators, there is more active voting stake adding value to posts to balance. On top of this, there is more incentive to power up meaning that the demand for Steem increases and the price should follow meaning that while less is being taken away, the value of it is higher.

One of the arguments of content creators on the platform is that 50% curation is costing them but this isn't actually true. I always wonder, what if you didn't know? What if when you entered into the platform for the first time someone like @blocktrades voted on your post at 50 dollars, would you be happy? Damn straight. The feeling of loss really comes when the payout value says they voted 100 dollars but took 50 back, doesn't it?

There was no loss, there was 50 dollars gain but come payout time, that number is smaller than it was just a moment ago and the person that took it from you has so much already. Do you ever question what these accounts have done to have those amounts? Do you know what they do in the real world, should it matter? If this was hidden from view, no one would see it as a loss.

Ever wonder how much a YouTube creator makes, *and how much YouTube makes on the work of that creator? Then think that most content creators aren't earning as they aren't monetized at all yet, YouTube is still earning on them through advertising they run across the platform. On Steem, a curator *can't earn unless someone is curated meaning, the contributor has to make something for the curator to get anything.

Everyone on Steem is monetized, whether a witness, contributor, curator or just a holder. And, every holder earns something, even if inactive as there is a small interest payment. Yes, it is relative to the stake but this is a dPOS platform so, stake matters and if you aren't willing to power up something to support the content you consume, are you really in a position to criticize distribution?

It might make people feel justified when they talk about the broken distribution mechanism when they don't get voted upon but, there is also the whole dPOSA I spoke of not long back, the proof of social ability. And for those who have engaged well within the community and consistently added value, got themselves seen, helped others, produced in-demand content and done it all well enough that they have got attention in an attention economy, they have found that it is possible to earn. There are others who have bought and powered up alongside this too because, they see the benefits of investment too.

The problem with misaligned incentives is that no one is really happy with the situation. The benefit on Steem is that the community itself has a fair amount of pull in deciding whether or not something gets implemented or not by talking to their witnesses or, voting on witnesses of a like mind. What I find interesting is that even though it isn't working well enough, most people still want to hold onto the status quo because, change might risk their current earnings. Better the devil you know..?

I am hoping that the conversation will be revisited and trialed for a couple months to see how the community adjusts to it. It could be set on a timer that if the witnesses decide it isn't working, they don't accept the change and it will automatically revert to the previous percentages or, move to a secondary point to trial, based on the new information gathered.

Anyway, something to think about more seriously than dismissing because it doesn't seem like it would work. You can also read the other posts linked here to get a broader picture and some more arguments for and against.

Taraz
[ a Steem original ]

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Revisiting this argument makes me nervous. Why do we continue to talk about vastly altering the foundation of the platform time and time again? There's nothing more contentious than continually talking about how to reallocate the inflation of a cryptocurrency.

Investors normally trust that the inflation of a cryptocurrency is going to be pretty predictable. Anyone who pays attention to Steem is going to be constantly reminded that we are forever wanting to tinker with it.

In my opinion, forced curation makes no sense. Curation implies your content will get viewed, but the entity really responsible for displaying the content is the frontend (Steemit, Busy, Steempeak, Parkito). Payout doesn't affect visibility unless the Steem frontend in question directs it to do so.

Curation should be completely optional to be determined by the content creator. It should also be optionally applied to resteems (which is curation by definition). This would make it even easier for curators as they would be able to scan the blockchain for content that was offering the highest curation percentages and pick the best content from a smaller pool.

Forcing people to use the curation mechanic is shady,
and talking about doubling down on it is even worse.

Why do we continue to talk about vastly altering the foundation of the platform time and time again?

Because discussion like this is good as it gets people understanding the system and much deeper levels.

Investors normally trust that the inflation of a cryptocurrency is going to be pretty predictable.

It is predictable, where it go is not because it is a decentralized system.

"For visibility" is silly at this point imo

Curation should be completely optional to be determined by the content creator.

I have posted about this some 2 years ago I think. Let the creator decide the percentage they take.

Forcing people to use the curation mechanic is shady,
and talking about doubling down on it is even worse.

Talking is worse than shady?

If there was more incentive to actively curate, there would be more curators curating rather than selling votes which means, even if the return is less for content creators, there is more active voting stake adding value to posts to balance.

Nah! I dont't think it'd be the case. I can see why you may perceive this in a positive light because you are indeed a restless, conscious and honest chap who actually bothers to read/consume people's content and interact with them and with your commentators too.

But, ¿How many more do this here like you do? I would say very few. It has been too easy for too long time already just sell their votes to randomly and blindly scatter further & farther their fake support and get whatever little they can get, even in a slower pace, without have to blink or move their lazy ass to read or curate a single shit anymore.

Obviously, I'm talking here about those who actually have stake. ¿Who else could afford to vote with a ridiculous 1% of their VP and still be able to milk the cow? Because evidently those without a big amount of SP, they can not afford such luxury to sell their dwarfish and rickety votes. Therefore, they are usually the ones who are forced to actively write, read and engage to keep this site alive if they want to survive in this hole pit.

So, ¡No! as a content creator who actually READ and reads a lot manually and organically CURATING. I can't agree with the 'slogan' of the wealthiers claiming: "Less juice available for the ones who genuinely are squeezing the oranges & lemons"

¿Incentive to curate? ¡Yeah right! The wealthiers have already become too used to 'automatically' earn anything through their blind Alts/Trails/Guilds without having to lift a finger that an extra 25% of their curation rewards is not going to wake them from their stupid torpor while they can still quench their thirst with a few drops more of juice thru their voracious throats.

In summary: I think a 50/50 proposal wouldn't improve things in the least or improve the current dynamics in anything. Neither in the retention of the current active users nor in attracting new users. Money alone can't create, code or write good content and expect generate profits. };)

PS. Yeah! I have to confess that I agree big time with the logic & reasoning of @practicalthought and everything he has said on this post so far. Cheers Practical 🥂

Because evidently those without a big amount of SP, they can not afford such luxury to sell their dwarfish and rickety votes

But, they do. It isn't going to get them far but it is better than curating.

engagement can keep people here, unfortunately, there isn't much of that for most people either. There is incentive to curate with 50/50 and more would go to the smaller accounts than it does now. I think :D

Yes, they do!!

A few, due to some despair out of not know better. Some, also out of despair, because they are forced to sell their votes following the rules of certain 'Discord Clubs' and then be able to get on board into their fucking blind trails/guilds expecting to get a few more 'dust votes' in a Vote4Vote exchange.

Other ones, the minority. Selling & delegating their votes as a simple experiment to test how these 'V4V automatic' platforms works with the hopes that they can still earn something while they are not active.

And many others with low SP, because quite frankly, they are merely a gang of hopeful chumps.

There is incentive to curate with 50/50 and more would go to the smaller accounts than it does now.

That would only work if they knew what it means 'Curate Content' and the awful amount of time that this READING activity demands. But then, again. Those with low SP, quickly would witness that regardless the possibility that more 'Curating Rewards' would go to their smaller accounts than it does now in a remote 50/50 deal, this won't satisfy all their hassle.

I mean, just look a this table below and make sure you have a box of handkerchiefs on hand to dry your tears of pity or laughter!! };)

Rewards.jpg

It should have been 1 account 1 vote, with no stake weighted voting, but they allowed people to create bot armies so it can never happen now. There are other ways to encourage people to hold SP like making a part of the rewards go to staked coins as interest.

1 account 1 vote is exactly how you incentivise weasels to create bot armies. Dan Lirimer already thought that out very well when he first wrote the steem whitepaper.

The current stake-weighted voting has the double benefit of requiring people not only to financially invest in Steem but also take part in the social network.

Many DPOS / Masternode blockchains out there where their investors don't give a hoot about what's happening but the APR. Not good for community.

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It should have been 1 account 1 vote, with no stake weighted voting,

wouldn't work so well as it doesn't incentivize anyone to powerup unless the interest was very high. it is 1.9% i think now. The 1 account thing would require KYC of some sort and people won't do that in crypto... yet.

I would be for 50/50. But maybe displaying the payout as such would be a good idea from the start. It may encourage people to curate more . As it stands 75/25 (I think) may come as a shock to receive payout less curation to many new content creators. We really need more curation and I'm sure it will balance out at the end as steem's value rises. As a content creator myself it is sad to see the lack of engagement on steem and I am guilty of it myself but will always try and reply when talked to.. Don't get me wrong I am very happy with what I have achieved in the last two years and I thank all my readers and curators. I know how hard and important a job they do is. For me sharing what I get with them is one of the most important mechanics of steem. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to read about it.......?

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to read about it.......?

This is the problem happening now for so many as there are almost zero curators on the platform. Discussing these things is good, it gets people thinking.

The liner/superliner reward curve discussion is important.

Right now one can "buy" steem at a discounted rate by using bit bots to pump their shitposts. Sure there are risk involved, people don't "always" make money bla bla bla. But the fact that it's possible is already discouraging investors from buying and investing in Steem.

How is it fair for them to acquire steem at market rate when they know some people are bottling up their shitposts with no consequences, earning 1.17 Steem with 1 Steem paid on average?

A bit bot business should not allow their customers to expect a profit from bot votes. "post visibility" should come at a price.

Otherwise its a continued trend of the dishonorable milking the reward pool with no actual value created in their content.

I fully support the view of @trafalgar / @kevinwong / @theycallmedan

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Sure there are risk involved, people don't "always" make money bla bla bla.

50/50 brings in a huge amount more risk for buyers and sellers.

How is it fair for them to acquire steem at market rate when they know some people are bottling up their shitposts with no consequences, earning 1.17 Steem with 1 Steem paid on average?

THis is something I haven't got to yet in writing but it is another factor people don't think about.

Interesting, I'd like to know in your opinion what risks are involved should the rewards changed to 50/50..

Or perhaps do you mean it's less guarantee for bib bot buyers because they won't always make a profit from bitting up their post?

Also, of you're reading this, please follow @coingecko if you haven't done so!

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My simple minded thought coming from a mindset that does not live on the earnings here is that it should be given an opportunity to see what behaviors it alters and if it adds value. Too many focus on optimizing rewards instead of building value... I say it respectfully as I have done my fair part in both sides.

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My simple minded thought coming from a mindset that does not live on the earnings here is that it should be given an opportunity to see what behaviors it alters and if it adds value.

This is the problem, everyone is unhappy - no one wants to experiment.

I have been quite unselfish for most of my time in Steem and put in more work than most also. This isn't about making more for me.

tarazkp i enjoyed the read and the comments. interesting views by everyone.

I think the discussions around these topics are very important for developing understanding of Steem, responsibility and participation. Many seem scared to get involved, it is just a discussion. :)

I think it might be an easier sell at 40/60

Maybe but I don't think it will really make much difference. What most fail to recognize now is that because of the competition in curation, most large accounts don't get the 25% back unless a very large vote comes in after. The small accounts an well and truly earn a lot more than the 25% though. Under 50/50, they get more curation return too.

Personally I believe is crap to have curator and author 50% 50%! The rich will make more on autopilot with the curation trails without curate manually!

Not really. The large accounts (not necessarily the rich) will be front run and lose most of their curation to smaller accounts - even now this happens.

Curation is like an hammer. The more you have the more you make money as simple like that.

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not quite percentage wise though.

Would just increase the gulf between haves and have nots. Bots would still be delegated to as their take would increase. Newer members who cast dust votes? Nothing doubled is still nothing.

Nothing wrong with requiring skin in the game, but the pitch has been come and earn with the skin being your talent to write or network. This further deviates from that pitch, which will only serve to further disenfranchise many who come. I know as a writer myself, I have pointed out many writers will not choose to do research pieces requiring many hours of research to see those benefiting from it get the same amount as they did for doing the work. It's like saying "I need more reward to enjoy the fruits of your labor"

What about the fruits of my labour? AS I said in the article above, people don't seem to recognize that while YouTube make billions, most make zero from YouTube. Even the large 'stars' will earn a pittance in comparison. There is a reason they don't release their numbers but cherrypick contributors they pay.

Would just increase the gulf between haves and have nots.

As said, on Smoke 50/50 has been a massive distributing force and most of those with large stakes barely post if at all because they can earn without it. It has closed the gaps massively.

What about the fruits of my labour?

You compare your already compensated consumption to that of the creator of that which is consumed?

This is not a closed ecosystem, people are investing into it with the work they do in other domains.

Not sure how that answered my question.

I would go further to point out that if the answer to the question I asked is yes, it reveals ones opinion of what one is consuming. Is it not already huge that one can earn up to 25% compensation for enjoying a product, it needs to be equal to the creator of said product or, no thank you?

It's not equal at all. The creator earns cumulatively, they will always be making more than any one Curator from the same content. Even at 25%/75%, cumulatively they could still earn more than any one Curator. The point that many don't seem to get is that without the incentive to curate why would anybody vote for anyone other than themselves. That's why a 50/50 split works well on Smoke, and that's why we should at least try it before chucking it as a loss, because the incentive has doubled to curate, while the author has only lost a potential third, yet right now, a third of nothing is not much but imagine if more people curate now, that third could very well not come into play at all.

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It's not equal at all.

The proposition is indeed to make the splitequal. You are correct in that the curator is at the disadvantage when it comes to time placement of vote as well as SP contributing. Which I have pointed out that for lower holding accounts in many cases will result in nothing (dust vote) doubled is still nothing.

The point that many don't seem to get is that without the incentive to curate why would anybody vote for anyone other than themselves.

I do it because I appreciate the words and occasionally the video I consumed. I will use you as an example. I have voted many times for your comments as they enrich me watching you dissect the structures you focus on. In many of those votes, I was the sole voter of your comment (as usually the structure you are deconstructing is not found to be appreciated by the creator of it). Under that circumstance, I would indeed get 50% of the reward. I am already gifted by reading your mind at work. Further gifted by receiving currently 25% of my vote back. In no way do I believe I should get a higher cut for the quality you created.

It's equal in the sense that you equal to what I get, but it's not equal in the sense that you will earn as much as I do because the author can accumulate more than one vote but the curator only gets that 50%, more or less. Think about it like this: more incentive to curate means more comments will be voted. It doesn't mean less comments. The same thing for posts.

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yes, this is the thing and then with the competition and the way curation works, the smaller accounts will curate for higher percentage than the larger who will have to be very lucky to get 50% back as they would either need to be the only voter or have a much larger come in on top which isn't likely.

Then, because less large accounts need to post to earn and instead just curate, there is more space for producers.

Then, because the large votes are less likely to stack ontop of each other unless the content is good, there will be less curators front running the same authors on auto (I think) and then there will be eyes on a wider amount of content as people will look for what they like instead of looking for what increases their curation. (this last one isn't expressed well but it is late and I am very tired)

The only way is to experiment. The resounding sentiment the community echoed when @dan was around and right after he left steem was more frequent HF with only one or 2 changes. That has yet to manifest even slightly. I haven't seen anyone in community say that for almost a couple years now, everyone woke up and realized that Stinc was deaf. More frequent HFs with only one or two changes, and with no multiple changes to the same mechanism. We need the data, and without a well set-up experiment we won't learn anything definitively.

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I guess I didn't understand your question then :)

Why isn't 25% (or even 10%, 5%) enough? Is the content you vote on something that contributes to your life in some way, or is it something that is a burden you must go through to earn some tokens? A burden heavy enough that it should require the author to further incentivize you to click that upvote button to make it worth your time?

you think this is worth 300 SBD?
https://steemit.com/mindset/@chbartist/what-happens-when-your-mind-is-wired-up-the-wrong-way

You know why those little accounts vote on it, encourage it? curation. they don't give a shit about the content.

Most of the content on this platform doesn't deserve much at all but, with no curators, none of them are going to get any at all unless they buy the vote. Distribution has to happen and for that to translate into vote value on posts, those it is distributed to need to power up and vote also. But without enough incentive to power up, they aren't going to and instead they are going to keep selling and, the amount of curators:content creators keeps worsening.

(Why isn't 25% (or even 10%, 5%) enough?) How about i vote sell, self vote or mine a different crypto / invest elsewhere to make my ROI and pay the author of the post directly in liquid steem for the reading enjoyment? Like in real life:)
Forgive me if i didn't fully understand what you wrote. that's how i read it.

If you want to look at it from a consumption stand point, One consumes content, the other consumes a stake weighted vote from the pool. To have that stake takes the creation of stake also. People have created stake right? It has taken time, effort, investment, risk... Should people not read and consume it all themselves?

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