Can you impose freedom on others? - Some thoughts after the Catalonian referendum

in #catalonia6 years ago


A common argument against the secession of Catalonia is that the regional government is fairly left-leaning, and thus it will restrict freedom more than the Spanish government. Therefore, many argue, it would be better for Catalonia not to secede from Spain. In other words, currently existing freedoms come before localization.

Before the referendum took place, I posted about why secession would be the moral option, because it brings power back to a lower level, i.e. a smaller community of people. Of course, this doesn't mean that suddenly the government will stop pointing guns at people to impose their rules on other people, but at least it's a start. At least the decisions will be made to a greater extent by the people who are directly involved in the matter, instead of a government that sits several hundred kilometers away.

One person in the comment section of my post didn't seem to agree. This person (you can see who it was on my other post) argued that the Catalan government was fascist and xenophobic, and therefore shouldn't be allowed to secede. They would turn the region into a communist hellhole and ruin it for everybody that lives there.

This got me thinking: Can you impose freedom on others?

Even if it is true what the person said, why would secession be a bad thing? Yes, the Catalonian government could be socialist, but so is the Spanish government. This has nothing to do with the size of the territory a government exercises control over. Moreover, Spain is a democracy and an independent Catalonia would be a democracy as well. The government would change every four years. Just because a current government has particular views doesn't mean that those views will prevail for eternity.

If you advocate for liberty, it is useless and immoral to force others to be ruled by one party or another. The truth is that the Catalonians are currently ruled by a government and they will still be ruled if independent. Being ruled by A or B has nothing to do with liberty. What does matter, however, is to what extent the people have direct influence in their being ruled. Therefore, to achieve liberty, one thing that can be done is localization. Reduce the amount of people that are ruled over by a particular government.

And if it turns out to be a mistake, let it be an example for other small nations that liberty is the way to go. There are some exciting projects underway that can prove this right: Liberland, Liberstad, Roger Ver's coming voluntary nation, and more.

We cannot abolish government in one day, but we can make it smaller through localization.

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Catalonians have the right to independently determine their own future; I wouldn't vote for Socialism personally but if that is the path they choose then so be it.

Well, it's still far from the ideal situation, but it's a start. Thanks for reading!

I think secession is a non-libertarian tool for a non-libertarian world, that can bring about a more libertarian future. And it should be noted to those who believe in democracy that it is its finest expression.

I live in a country that fought a war to secede from a bigger country, because "we deserve to be free and independent" and then, as soon as a smaller part of this new independent country tried to do the same, people yelled and screamed about history and "our land".

I was in Barcelona from last Friday to this Wednesday and I can tell you that I am happy for the people of Catalonia, even though I do not agree with the policies they may enact from now on. This is a step toward more freedom, not less.

Basque Country, Veneto, Novorossiya, Srpska, Corsica, Scotland, Wales, Sandžak, Vojvodina, Bavaria, Flanders, Wallonia...seccession is coming:-)

That would be swell :) Thanks for reading!

The us tries to do this all the time and it never seems to work. Peoples culture are a deep rooted piece of them. To change that over night is almost impossible and it just creates malice towards the us. If people want to be free the best way is to let them take it for themselves. Just my two cents.

"... let them take it..."

This is somewhat confusing, as 'take it' implies overcoming opposition, and 'let them' implies none.

Regardless of semantics, the fact, below, behind, and between all the lines and obfuscation, is that people ARE free, and decide what they will do, regardless of coercion, or the lack of it.

Many examples of people refusing to comply under threat are available to prove this point.

We are only slaves if we agree to be enslaved. When coerced, the alternatives to slavery are usually considered worse, so mostly folks comply.

Of their own free will, at their sole option.

Death is the ultimate freedom, after all.

Gandhi's genius was in successfully gaining sufficient support to simply not comply enough with the British to make them go away.

I hope we can do that too.

Let the people who want the freedom fight for the freedom they so desire. "Let them take it"

Thanks for clarifying!

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Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.

- Mahatma Gandhi

I also have had a discussion with the same poster. He stated that Catalonia leaving would be "stealing his land". I'm sure how that works, if 90% of the Catalonia wants to leave.

He states that there was already a civil war back in 1936 when they tried this the first time. They can't be allowed to run off with Catalonia as they are left-leaning commies.

However, it is important to note, that the other side of that civil war, and the winning side was Franco. An actual Fascist dictator. He ruled for more than 3 decades, and his supporters were never purged from the government or police force.

So it is interesting that a "freedom-loving" person would fight to keep a population from declaring independence from a federal government that is based off fascist principles and was a "Kingdom" for most of it's history.

This person also stated that Americans have a "right" to decide for California if it wanted to leave the Union. If California wants to go off and be a liberal paradise, citizens of Montana have no right to deny them that freedom.

This is outlook of an American anyway. I think the poster you are speaking to is what an American would consider a right-wing conservative nationalist. Not a true freedom loving libertarian.

I agree with you and I'm not American :)

But yeah, this person didn't make a lot of sense. He said he advocated freedom, but also said he would support a tax of 10% and that democracy was the will of the people. Not sure how that's freedom, but okay.

Thanks for reading!

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Good post, clearly argued. I would suggest that whether Spain is a democracy or not is rather up for debate - for example on this very issue the instinct appears anything but respectful of democratic principle. Population size is a real issue in regards to sovereignty, as once past a critical level it becomes increasingly impossible for individual citizens to have any influence - hence smaller is better. Db

Right. As for Catalonia, we can only hope that they will move away from their currently left-leaning government. Thanks for reading!

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