Resource Credit Delegation Being Worked On

in #busy5 years ago (edited)

steen.png

The switch to Resource Credits created quite a stir. While the move gives everyone a better idea of what certain activities on the blockchain cost, it did put a limit on what smaller accounts can do.

One benefit is that the spamming of the blockchain was dramatically reduced. This also saw an increase in the payouts to the users that were left since all those micropayments to the spammers was removed. For this everyone is grateful.

What is not sitting well is the fact that newer accounts, especially the ones that go through the application, have zero SP. Unless the cost of activities are reduced, this is severely limiting. Going through Steemit still gets one the same delegation as before. However, they do take it back if an account is inactive or does engage in spamming.

So how do we fix this?

One idea that appears to be followed is giving people the ability to delegate their Resource Credits. This will separate the RC from the SP. Presently, if one wants to give a smaller account the ability to conduct more activity, SP needs to be delegated. This penalizes the larger account in that it is a reduction in power.

Under the new system, RC could be delegated which is not a penalty to a larger account since it is basically excess. From what I can see, anyone with 1K SP or more basically will not use up their daily allotment. RC recharges at the same rate as SP.

@holger80 did a review of the code that is being written and put up a post of what was completed so far. It is obviously rather technical so I won't even begin to delve into that.

From what I can see, the delegation is from an account to a pool that is being set up. It does not look like, at least this go around, that account to account delegation is being worked upon.

New container to store the state and operation of the RC pool delegation has been added

New operation delegate_to_pool_operation was added
This operation can be used to delegate RC from an account to a pool.

What does appear to be in the mix is there will be different pools that one can delegate to. Could this be that each application could set up a pool to have users of that app delegate to? That would make sense.

New operation delegate_drc_from_pool_operation was added

This operation can be used to allow account use RC from a pool. The operation has to be signed from the pool owner.

The entire idea behind the Resource Credits was to establish a system which used market conditions to establish the cost of each activity. Built in was a way for the Witnesses to alter the system if things were shown to be not reaching an equilibrium that created the results desired.

The new coding did change the cost of a couple things by a factor of 20.

The most important change is the adding of objects for resource pool delegations . This is the first necessary step in implementing a fully working pool delegation.

The second most important change is the enabling of resource_execution_time for RC costs. The budget of all pools have been increased to compensate this. The cost of a vote has made 19x cheaper, custom_json operation was also made 20x cheaper (except of follow custom json operation).

Here is the post by @holger80 along with the full breakdown of what code was reviewed and what it all means.

https://busy.org/@holger80/code-review-of-changes-since-0-20-5-resource-pool-delegations-were-added

As an aside, @holger80 is a Witness, presently ranked 72. This type of undertaking is what the community needs from the Witnesses so it might be worth consideration giving this account a vote. (full disclosure-this is one of my votes)

I think having account to account delegation of Resource Credits would be a great addition to the community. Personally, I like the idea of individuals being able to directly help out those they being to the ecosystem. This might be something that gets added later or it might not even be on the radar. Nevertheless, I feel it is worth talking about at some point.

The idea of RC pools makes a lot of sense. Hard Fork 20 did a great job in decentralizing the sign up process by giving applications (any large account actually) the ability to sign up new accounts. The problem is they can do very little. If an application can set up a RC pool and get delegation from the users, that would go a long way to solving the problem. Just like Steemit does with the SP, a certain amount of RC could be given and have it diminish as SP is earned.

Thus, we would have a system where the new users are limited in their ability to interact by the blockchain yet it can be overcome if the applications decide to issue more RC to newer accounts. This would provide more flexibility to the applications.

Of course, the subject of leasing bandwidth will come up. Do we see pools established where people delegate bandwidth that is leased out by accounts? That might have been one of the initial intentions with this. While one might jump to the conclusion of individuals accounts having to lease; I think the exact opposite would be in play here.

Users could get their delegation from the applications. Where I see a RC pool for lease being needed is with the newer applications. This could be a way for them to reduce the start up costs by not having to buy as much SP but, instead, expand the ability of their users to interact by leasing RC.

Take a major publication as an example. Let us say they need enough RC for 5M transactions per month. Without knowing the numbers, suppose they bought 25K SP to start. This gives them a nice starting stake yet is not enough to cover all that activity. Therefore, they lease RC equal to 2M SP to ensure they can sign up their users and give them enough RC to participate.

Instead of having to lay out $2M, in this scenario, maybe the leasing only costs $10K a month. Obviously, the numbers can change but I think you get the point.

The Resource Credits opened up an entirely new avenue for this blockchain. While confusing and starting off slow, the merits of these system are now starting to emerge. This was a major upgrade to this ecosystem. I am getting very excited about the possibilities.

It is also encouraging to see the development team is working on this is the code is being written.

And a thank you to @holger80 for reviewing it while bringing it to our attention.


If you found this article informative, please give it an upvote and resteem.

Sort:  

What a huge mess this is! I'm am watching redfish delegate their sp to noobs they brought in right now and then they both die. Yes, we are really at a point where people with 100 sp are trying to save the place. Good grief!

At the same time, I see a comment in one of my steemit fb groups asking if it really true that you have to "buy in" just to be able to comment here. Several people say "Yes!" The person replies that steemit is an obvious scam and decides to stay on intsy and fb where you can comment for free.

Meanwhile we got 5000 new accounts the other day according to penguinpablo. I would love to know the kill rate of that group.

But happy day! The votes for those of who are already here are somewhat bigger. So the fork is an awesome success.

Since those 5,000 accounts were created through Steemit, they all got the same 15 SP that was always delegated.

Accounts created through Steemit have not changed since before the HF.

The problem is that now if you make one post and 5 comments with that 15 sp, your rc is dead for a week. The common advice I am seeing is for people to "buy in" for 100 sp. This is scamworthy advice to someone looking for a social media platform to post on.

The budget of all pools have been increased to compensate this. The cost of a vote has made 19x cheaper, custom_json operation was also made 20x cheaper (except of follow custom json operation).

When these go into effect, the accounts will have more

As for buy in, I am not sure how one is buying anything when they own the money they put up. The 100 SP, in your example, still belongs to the account.

Of course, since it was implemented, it was said that it would take some time to reach AND that Witnesses had the ability to alter the costs in the code.

It seems like that is exactly what is happening.

This is just the type of comment that makes no sense at all to a person fresh off the street. Content creators are normally not asked to "invest" in the platform in order to make comments on it if that is the point your are making.

I'm glad the witnesses are spending their time fruitfully. A fix to this cannot come too soon.

It is a scam, grtz... did it sink in?

With 100 SP, the inflation/dilution game has started. Before they could outrun this inflation/dilution by selfvotes and making lots of posts and lots of comments in the hope someone will vote on them. Now they will never be able todo that.

This is intentional. It's greed from the centralised masters, the devs, witnesses, they are all in the same boat. Thats why this website stays as it is, no innovation, no updates, nothing nada....

Because the blockchain is growing and growing, the costs to keep it running is hitting their profits... so they went some steps further... invent resource credits...

Don't judge what they are saying, judge what they are doing.

They all keep the mantra going on, steem to the moon... but it should be steem into their pockets...

@nokodemion, I completely agree with what you are saying. This entire situation is created intenionally, and greed and a feeling of superiority are the reasons why.

Hey, @fitinfun.

I agree. Content creators are not normally asked to invest in a platform in order to make comments. They also don't potentially receive rewards for their comments either. Those social media sites are generally subsidized by advertising or by selling off data collected from users, too.

The problem is, there is a cost to everything, but usually there's someone else paying for it. Here, I guess, the costs have been largely picked up by Steemit Inc. The move to RCs, in my mind, means that Steemit Inc. is done picking up the tab. The costs need to be shared among all users, which apparently means, having enough to even function, let alone potentially do enough to make anything here.

So, what I wasn't told, and what you probably weren't either, along with everyone who has come in after us, is this is not a free social site, and there is a minimum amount required to function, even if the account is 'free.' That's where the 'freemium' comes in we've been hearing about lately, like an in app cost you might find in a smartphone game. You can play the core game if you like, but if you actually want to level up, win, etc., you'll need something else to do it with.

Personally, I think those who were here pre-hard fork, at the very least, should be able to function as they were before. Everyone since, I'd like it if they could function to, and I agree it is in the best interest of the social part of the platform if they can, but so far, aside from the potential changes suggested in this post, I don't think that's the direction this his heading.

Yes, we are really at a point where people with 100 sp are trying to save the place. Good grief!

Empathy.

A bandage. Not a solution.

If I would have joined after HF20, I would have drained my SP doing mistakes like futile upvoting and editing texts. The cost of doing anything in Steemit for small accounts is too much. An enthusiastic person is bound to do mistakes that drain RC and during that long recovery time a potential future Steemian might be lost forever.

Oh, and even though my upvote to you is only 0.01 at 100%, it's not futile and lost, thanks to @dustbunny who I trust to gather my dust. :)

It's indeed a bandage instead of a solution.
But it's an important bandage, because if nobody does anything and waits for the so called 'fix', the entire redfish userbase will be gone and will never return.

Starting tomorrow, I will be delegating more than 1000SP to people who need it to be able to function here. I will take users who have shown commitment and quality up to 100SP. So that will probably be about 12 users , while hundreds, maybe thousands have been muted by this system.

And just like @fitinfun, people with 100SP ask me for advice about whether it would be a good idea to delegate a little of their SP to someone else.

I think that's sad... there are so many users here that have so much SP that they wouldn't even notice if they would delegate a couple of thousands sp to get people going again. It doesn't have to be for long. Just until the 'fix'is released (which might be soon, but might just as well take another year... SteemIt-style).

It saddens me that it's left up to the minnows who have barely enough to function themselves, to save this place.

There are a couple of exceptions, but the biggest part of those larger account simply don't give a damn. They won't shred a tear if the entire redfish userbase would be gone tomorrow. I just wonder why they don't realize that if there is no instream of new users, this place will go down fast...

Starting tomorrow, I will be delegating more than 1000SP to people who need it to be able to function here.

Awesome! :) Thank you for doing that! I think it's fairly easy to grow here from 25 to 40 if one just has enough resources to comment. You are doing a good deed! And it really is important to keep the red fish here as you said:

f nobody does anything and waits for the so called 'fix', the entire redfish userbase will be gone and will never return.

Helping others helps Steemit and us all.

Exactly. I read about someone draining all their rc by editing their first post here. I'm sure it got no votes.

Good for you to "invest" in dustbunny. I appriate that very much. I just don't upvote comments at all now unless I can do it for 3 cents...

I just don't upvote comments at all now unless I can do it for 3 cents

I understand. :) I guess this is something that people learn here quickly. That this is no Facebook where you just like or click any reaction to everything.

Yes they do, and it used to be that they could just wait a while, grow their power back and not screw up again. Now they need to "invest" or somehow get charity if they want to work here while new.

barring the initial hiccups, i think things are looking up and going as intended by the stinc team... exciting times ahead, and yes RCs have definitely opened up a new dimension with great possibilities.

To listen to the audio version of this article click on the play image.

Brought to you by @tts. If you find it useful please consider upvoting this reply.

Noted, thankyou sir

Thank you Taraz for pointing this to us. I'll take a look at the post by @holger80. I'm still navigating my way through post hf20. And thanks for the info earlier today on discounted account creation.

I think what I need and we all need is some patience while the developers do what they know how to do.

we all need some patience

True, but that's easy to say if you have a couple of hundreds SP, and more RC than you need.

For all those smaller accounts, especially the ones that were working hard to grow before HF20 happened, 'patience' got an entirely new definition.

Having to wait an entire week for your RC to recharge, so you can make a post and leave 10 comments again... I don't think I would be able to have patience and stick around...

This signals a great shift from having to buy in for SP to have a voice towards being able to get bandwidth via RCs for engagement to then earn you SP with your activity. As long as communities and these pools prosper at providing new accounts with a voice, those that are retained can grow. It is not a completely resolution as churn will continue but at least through communities that create pools could potentially improve retention through engagement.

Yes and having those entities bring people in, sign them up, and then be able to give them RC to operate should increase retention. When a user signs up for an app, you would think they have a greater interest than in a general site compared to Steemit.

Hey, @taskmater4450.

In your example of the major publication, aside from wondering what lures them here in the first place when they find out they have to buy in for 25,000 SP, and then lease another two million, the question is, who's going to interact with their publication?

I mean, those of us who are here and capable of functioning can, but will 50,000-plus potential daily users be enough to get them here, when the majority of that 50,000-plus can't really do much?

I imagine the premise is based on hundreds of thousands of daily users, though, all of which would need to be able to function. That's currently not happening, and at the current cost of claiming accounts, the floodgates are yet to open, anyway.

I understand this major publication is a hypothetical somewhere down the road, when the situation at present is resolved. I just hope the RC deficit for the newer accounts can get taken are of quickly.

They might pick up some from here but the main attraction is to be able to tokenize their content for their existing viewers/readers/commenter. Imagine how many a publication like the Hugginton Post or WSJ has.

I imagine the cost of claiming accounts is going to drop. You are right, at the current level, growth will be painfully slow.

Okay. So, that sounds like you're talking about a publication setting up a SMT rather than actually setting up shop on the blockchain, like a normal user Steemit account. That I could see working quite well. I was understanding you to say that they would actually set up a blog on the blockchain. My bad. Makes much more sense, and they probably could get some of the readers to set up STEEM accounts solely based on the idea of being rewarded for curation or commenting, or however that would be set up.

They would probably be inclined to claim account for members, too, but would need even more SP leased to accomplish that with any great alacrity. I guess if the price is coming down, that will help all across the board.

Yes the existing site exists how it is, just a token is created using the SMT...lets say the HUFF. Users going to the same URL just when they comment on that site, it contains the same content/reward system we have here.

Of course, to get paid, all the users will have to have a registered Steem account. This is where the numbers can grow quickly. How many commenters are on a site like Huffington Post (Or WSJ, NY Times, CNN, or any other media site) and how many readers who might comment if they saw money being made?

Yes, the Huff account would have to set up the user accounts. That is why it is A)imperative to know the costs and B) for the prices to be adjusted to under a gazallion RC per account claim.

But the basic premise is starting to form at least.

Coin Marketplace

STEEM 0.35
TRX 0.12
JST 0.040
BTC 70541.68
ETH 3582.21
USDT 1.00
SBD 4.74