Ordering Others to Do Bad Things: Who is to Blame?
There are some people who have a will to have something done, but they don't do it themselves. Instead, they get others to subsume their own will to the will of others, and do as the others want them to do. The former can be referred to as order-givers, and the latter as order-followers.
The order-givers may not be doing the action themselves, but their will is what is being done. Others follow order and do what they want, what they will, because they are told to do it and they do it. This applies in many jobs. We do things that others tell us to in order to get paid.
Is this a justification to do anything, just because we are told to in order to get paid? No, it's not a valid justification to justify an action. It's an excuse to try to "make-right" and justify something done. Just look at the Nuremberg trials to see if many soldiers were justified and had a "right" to do what they did. Many attempted to justify themselves and their actions by saying they were "just following orders".
Many bad things, wrongs, harm, immorality and evil is created into the world by the actions of some who will it themselves. But there is much more darkness in the world because powerful men give orders and will others who follow orders and do as the rulers and masters want.
Are you peaceful and non-violent when you will, order or convince others to do bad things for you? You didn't do it yourself. You got someone else to do it through various manipulations, like the allure of a paycheck. But that doesn't mean you are blame free, as if you carry no moral culpability and fault for what has happened. For every action, the is someone who created it. There is always a source for an actions, and there is always fault and blame to be associated with immoral actions, no matter the justification or excuse.
Source: 1, 2, 3, 4
The person who did the action is the one doing the action. They could choose not to do the action. They are the tip of the spear that is most to blame, that carries the most fault and culpability for has occurred. The order-follower does the action, letting themselves be directed like a spear to go off in the direction the order-giver tells them to. But don't forget who sent them on their way to create harm, chaos and mayhem in the lives of others.
The order-followers might be the most to blame for actually doing the actions, because without them doing it, the action wouldn't be done. But the order-givers are the ones that get them to do it, and without them telling people to do it, the order-followers wouldn't have that influence to go do it.
Both share blame, guilt, fault and culpability in the creation of wrongs, harm, immorality and evil, but the order-followers are the ones who can choose to say "NO!" and stop doing what they re doing. They are ultimately the ones who bear the brunt of the responsibility of guilt, shame, blame, judgment, culpability and fault for the actions they themselves engaged in. Many of them take measures into their own hands, and use the authority passed down from the ruling order-givers. They are authorized to do as they do because they are the authorities.
The order-followers let their own authority be supplanted by the authority of others who rule them. It's almost like being a puppet, like being mind-controlled, where you are an empty shell or husk being taken over by others who control what you do.
I'm reminded of the phrase "thy will be done" in the "Lord's Prayer", or said by the character Jesus as well I think. The rulers and masters of society have taken on the role of a "god" it seems, where their will is what will be done. And it doesn't only apply to the military or police that go around doing harm to others because someone told them to do something. Government employees follow the will of those who create directives for how things are to operate in society.
And not only that, the rest of us, the people, the citizenry, are order-followers as well, as the will of the governmental body becomes the "law of the land" for everyone else to follow, right or wrong. It's supposed to be the reverse, where the people get to decide what the government does, but it doesn't seem to work out like that in large part.
We have lost power over our own lives in varying degrees. We are disempowered and made to believe we have power with elections. Are we stuck to forever have our wills supplanted by the wills of others who rule over us? Will we ever be free from masters and rulers? It's possible.
Thank you for your time and attention. Peace.
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Could it be, that public school taught us how to obey and live in the confines of governmental laws, but never told us of what to expect from the government or how to evaluate its performance?
Some how the latter part was left out of the curriculum.
Yeah, obey but don't evaluate according to ideals to hold them accountable :P
Interesting thoughts...
Again, this is not a proper discussion without bringing up narcissists / psychopaths.
At the heart of it, a psychopath is a coward. They don't want to do the thing, not because they would feel bad about it (they don't) it is too hard, too messy and too much trouble. Further, they don't get any enjoyment from it.
A normal person may talk about killing someone because they are a threat. A psychopath thinks about it only in terms of which path has the least problems. The normal person will kill in the heat of passion. A psychopath has no passion. They will kill someone just like we would throw out a broken tool.
So, the most important aspect is "duper's delight". It is the highest drive for a narcissist. Getting people to do evil thing to other people is their fun. And they will plan it out every waking moment. They will manipulate all people within their influence.
Would you get your platoon killed if you were promised a medal?
Well, there are several stories of that in Nam.
Further, following orders is easy. Being a brown shirt and stating, "All jews aren't bad" is similar to committing suicide. And, every brown shirt knows that those lying, good for nothing, cheating, lower than dogs jews don't deserve to live.
So, you really have to work on yourself to get out of this one. You cannot ask a brown shirt to not follow orders, to stand against them. They have already been indoctrinated fully. Those who weren't indoctrinated, left when they saw the writing on the wall.
What we need to do now is voice our opinions. We need to let people know that there is more than one of them that thinks these actions are wrong.
I disagree on psychopaths. Nothing prevents them from enjoying killing or murder, many psychopaths do enjoy it. Psychopathic development might be linked to enjoyment of torture and killing in youth. Narcissism is related to not having love for others and a false love infatuation with self to cover up their lack of self-love, not directly related to experience joy from the pain of others although that can be the case. Narcissists would be more the ones who are "dead" inside, no? So I think your definitions are a bit confusing the way you use them. But I get what you're driving at ;)
My definitions come from dealing with and healing from narcissists.
And, unfortunately, the media has done its best to change the definition of psychopath to Norman Bates and silence of the lambs. I would not call these people narcissists / psychopaths.
The defining characteristic is a lack of warm empathy.
So, they are not "dead" inside. They have feelings, for themselves. Other people, they have as much feeling for as one would their computer.
Of course they both must share the blame. The one who orders the bad thing is triggering the actions that will result in something bad happening, and the one following the order is choosing to follow it.
One debatable question would be: if the person following the orders must either follow the order or be killed himself... in this case should the person be put to blame as well? when he was simply trying to save his life?
An immoral act is an immoral act, regardless of justification such as personal survival. The action and what it does to another is what matters. Kill the baby or I kill you and the baby. You can choose. One is an immoral choice on your part that carries blame. The other is not an immoral choice where you can't be blamed for something you didn't do.
there are good orders and bad orders - how you choose and what you choose to follow is and always was an independent choice of the individual.
you certainly can't blame a command structure for an individual choice. if you join a groups with a hierarchy or command structure you must have known right from the beginning you would have to follow orders irregardless of what those orders were/are.
a good example: history is perfectly clear about the lies of government when it comes to war. every single person above adolescent age knows wars are for money and power.
choices upon the crossroads of life have consequences. i certainly made a free will choice not to join any government run organization. those who joined and have become nothing more than tools of the establishment also made a choice.
live with the consequences. I do.
Truth or consequence. Be right or go wrong :)
but what are the consequences... are those that do wrong willing to live with the consequences.
take the last half a dozen presidential administrations and their insatiable desires for war at all costs.. seems to me they don't seem to be bothered by the horrors thrust upon the populations they bombed into submission in the name of twisted peace initiatives. millions upon millions of people slaughtered and they get awarded peace prizes and accolades for their war crimes...
doesn't seem fair does it.
You make a great point my friend. Sadly the church and many other entities out there teach and encourage compliance to the government rather than questioning. if you are compliant to God why would you be compliant to the government we have? Yet churches teach this because they have gotten 5013c status. They have been state churches but I hope that will change with Trump repeal of the Johnson act. Thanks @krnel
this is the sad story of world
Yes it is :/
In my opinion, both these people are to blame, those who are giving orders and those are taking and acting upon them.
first, those who are giving, they should think what they are doing to the others life, they are destroying the lives of others.
and for those who are acting on these bad orders should also think before doing bad works that there one deed can destroy the life of many,
If they start thinking this. everything will be ok and we'll have peace!
There’s isn’t such a thing as moral blame, for this presupposes some kind of consequentialism, in which an action is wrong by virtue of it producing bad consequences, and the evilness of these consequences must be distributed among those who caused it.
Consequentialism is obviously false, so there’s is no moral ‘blame’ to be distributed.
Rather, each actor is fully morally responsible for their own actions (and not for the consequences of these actions). The orderers and henchmen all receive full responsibility for freely murdering (or whatever the case may be).
To me something is wrong with the idea that the order follower is more culpable than the order giver. When we hang a man for murder we don't hang him by his hands, but by his neck, cutting of the blood and oxygen to his brain where the will came from for s/he to murder. To me both the order giver and the order follower are guilty, both should pay equally for the crime. Just me.