The Uncanny Valley - Why oh why! Do you think it's AI?

in #ai8 years ago (edited)

Well it was nice and quiet in the botwars for a bit. Now things are rumbling again with the game of "spot the bot".

In case you're unaware, @stellabelle is busy botshaming people. This is not a derogatory comment towards her though, it's meant to call out the truth.

We aren't being "overrun by bots". @msgivings wasn't a bot. She was a sham. A sham perpetuated by someone who had the idea to hire writers from various and sundry places and then post their created content here without attribution or notice. Someone who likely had connections, because there is no way a person comes here and hits the ground running, knocking it out of the park every single day like that.

Truthfully no one had a problem with her content (except perhaps me, she did manage to piss me off pretty bad). We have a problem with her being so highly paid, so consistently, so effortlessly when we are all struggling to get any visibility at all.

We're all very jealous when this happens, myself included.

I struggle to take home $10 and consider $30 to be a really damned good day. I'm thankful for every penny I get. However considering the time and effort I put into my postings and the opportunity costs I forego in order to do it, yeah it pisses me off when someone games the system like that.

But it ain't bots.

Here's a simple fact and I say this as someone who's job is to stay on top of these things.

Bot's don't write like that. The reason our Asian users sound like the same accounts being called out as "bots", is because you have a bunch of people in 3rd world countries who can afford to live well on $5 a day. They write the content in their native language and use translation tools to get it from native language to English, because English is the language that gets paid around here.

Once the translation work is done, the usually they will hire an editor to clean the content up. Or the person who put out the job, will do the edit themselves, when they can't afford the editor or don't think the post will earn enough to cover the costs of hiring an editor, then they post the machine translated version and hope for the best.

This is a global platform, lots of people from all over the world are here now, so please park your privilege at the door

What you are seeing is an economy being built up around steemit. The people being paid well for their outsourced writing work may be gaming the system, but they are playing by the rules. The rest are innocent people living in 3rd world countries who can afford to make a living on what this place pays and they are trying their best.

They all "sound the same", in the same way that "all Asians look the same", you sound like a complete idiot when you say this BTW.

So besides a bunch of seething racist BS, what's the real problem here?

It's actually the uncanny valley.

It is an evolved primal fear, that used to serve a useful purpose, like fear of the dark it's a form of genetic memory.
There are serious illnesses that will cause a person to act "bot like". These diseases are contagious and deadly. Before the advent of modern medicine, the best thing a community can do is to shun them when they are that sick and get away as fast as possible.

Anyone who doesn't immediately appear "healthy" to us, we try to get away from. We reject them and we fear them.
Putting it bluntly, you're not afraid of bots, you're afraid of getting cooties from them.

A bot is nothing more than a force multiplier or if you prefer, a prosthetic.

There is a person behind each and every "bot" somewhere. Each of the real bots on the platform has a non zero cost to create and operate. Mostly these are limited to upvotes and quick commentary, chatterbot stuff. Why? Because content extraction and analysis IS THE cutting edge in AI right now! Freeform topical composition is a dream, that is still years out.

What you are calling bots have literally nothing to do with bots.
The current rewards system is set up so that the pay does not cover the opportunity cost for many native English speaking authors who would like to earn a living here.

These people take $500, buy 100 topical and insightful posts and then shotgun them to multiple accounts because odds are better that one of those will hit and earn $1,000 or so. This makes a profit. As long as it makes a profit they will continue to do so.

Tying real identity to accounts isn't going to even slow this down. It's going to make it worse because original authors in repressed regimes will be effectively locked out. Not everyone has a social media account and frankly many people would prefer not to dox ourselves for the opportunity to earn $1 per day. For some though it might be the difference between life and death.

So what can be done?

Just appreciate and enjoy the content for it's own sake. Don't worry that you may have gotten content from a non-authentic human, just like you don't care about Siri providing an intelligent answer, or Google providing relevant search results. The problem isn't the content here, it's the people consuming the content.

But keep in mind ,an inconsistent command of the language tells you nothing.

I'm a native English speaker, born and raised in the USA and generationally speaking, my ancestors were here before the Mayflower. Even I struggle with using our language properly and you can forget about consistency. I have to actively force myself to not sound like the redneck that I am. I don't have the energy to force that "high talking" all the time.

Sadly for anyone following me, it's going to get worse.

I can't see for shit. My vision is rapidly deteriorating and today I found out that I have macular degeneration. I honestly don't know how many articles I have left where I'm able to type out my thoughts.

I've already started to use dictation to get most of my thoughts into a text editor. Then I try to proof read what I can, but it's been under progressively heavier magnification. These are all prosthetics that I use, but the speech to text isn't that great and the MD means my ability to proof read is going to go away someday soon.

I guess what I'm saying is we don't have a bot problem.

We have a people problem. Calling out people isn't going to solve it. Being actual friends with people and trying to understand where they are and where they're coming from will. If someone else is making more money than you that's not a reflection on you per se.

It just means the payment mechanism valued their contribution that day more highly than it did your own.

What we need to do is fix the compensation mechanism. We're all trying to get a bigger slice of a progressively smaller pie and that whole pie is worth less and less each day by design. Maybe we need to look at the recipe and see if there is something wrong with the ingredients?

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Hey @williambanks. Wow, I had so many mixed feelings whilst reading your post.

First of all, I'm so happy to see one of your posts on the trending page. I know how much time you spend on writing original content, and all the time you take to comment and contribute to building the Steemit community. So I'm so happy for you to see your post getting the recognition it deserves.

Secondly, when I read you have macular degeneration, that really shocked me. I know how it feels, because at the age of 6 I was diagnosed with Stargardt's Disease, which is a juvenile form of macular degeneration. I can totally sympathize with your feelings at the moment. If I can ever be of assistance to you, please do not hesitate to contact me. But you know what? There's so much technological support out there these days, so you will never lose the gift of writing and reading. You will adapt over time, and you will learn to appreciate life in a new way.

Keep at it my friend.

Jimmy

Oh wow, thanks for this! You have no idea what it means to me, to know another person who walked the path I'm about to.

You're welcome William. Like I said, do not hesitate to contact me if I can ever be of assistance in any way.

Actually I could use you on my next blog post.

I'm working on a chrome extension to leverage the webspeech api built into chrome for making quick replies on here. It's almost done, but as someone who has lived what I'm going to go through, I'd really like to know what it's like trying to use it.

Also any ideas on features that might be helpful, would of course be helpful.
Putting the finishing touches on the S2T part of the plugin right now, will make a post about it in the morning.

I should mention that webspeech api seems to have a 300 word limit before it goes completely deaf. Short of patching chrome I have no idea how I would get around that. However the extension should load and unload / reset, by pressing the button to record, so hopefully it will be enough to keep from coming upon that limit too often.

Interesting. I look forward to learning more about this webspeech tool, and what it can do. Sure, I'm happy to help out and provide suggestions. However, I may not be able to test the tool at the moment, because I don't have a functional computer at home. Once I do, definitely happy to test it. Currently, I mainly use my phone and a Bluetooth keyboard to write all my posts and comments. But definitely looking forward to your post, and see if I can provide any suggestions.

Replying over here due to comment depth limits...
Google has a demo of the API up over here...
https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/demos/speech.html

My first step is to turn that into a plugin for chrome which means it should also run on chrome for android as well. Can you please go there see if that works for your setup?

Nicely presented ideas. Thank you for writing it.

Hoping for the best on your vision.

Thank you! I really appreciate that!
I've got a few years left before I'm always able to say "I'm completely in the dark about that" and mean it.
But I've decided that I'm going to do something to help others who want to contribute but are being held back. I'm working out the details now.
I'll make it the subject of my next blog posting so I hope you'll drop by!

A scam perpetuated by someone who had the idea to hire writers from various and sundry places and then post their created content here without attribution or notice.

but why would that "someone" be considered a scam? Why would there be "prior notice"?

A content showed up, People ( and machines controlled by other people) liked it. PERIOD!

I really don't see a problem using arbitrage to earn an income here. If anything its a pretty damn good strategic move imo.

I agree, speaking from a strictly strategy perspective it is a brilliant move.
The problem is that it is technically abusing the system to do so.
Yet this is the way to be paid right now.

Replying to your comment below

The system is more than the code. It's more than the blockchain.
It's the people in it.

That's all well and good, but people don't agree. I enjoyed @msgivings' content, don't care about the identity or business dealings of the writer, and didn't find it to be 'abusing the system' at all.

IMO, the bloggers who were jealous of her success, and probably a few malicious trolls who saw an opportunity to join a cyberlynching, engaged in a witch hunt and in doing so drove away content that I not only personally enjoyed but sincerely believe added value to the platform (as evidenced by the obviously high readership of her posts and extensive comment streams, exclusive even of comments accusing her of impropriety).

I consider that to be the real abuse. I, and I suspect others, will be taking a harder line against this sort of hostility and harassment, as evidenced by my downvote of @stellabelle's post (I was the first to do so). As you say, the system includes the people but the standards of desirable and acceptable behavior defined by the people are not fixed, they evolve and are evolving.

Yeah we're on the same page here and just seeing different words.

Is it fair to a farmer when a grocery store opens up in town?
Is it fair to the owner of the local grocery store when Walmart moves in?

Frankly I thought that most of msgiving's posts sucked, but I dealt with that by abstaining from upvoting her stuff and just staying quiet in general. I may have been in the minority there, but it doesn't matter. However she did have a couple of really good posts too.

She also had a bunch I missed, but in retrospect I would have at least commented on. Part of the problem here may well be that content has a 24hr fresh period and 30 day curing period. Beyond this point there is no way to monetize your content.

So for instance, if an aspiring author wants to come to the platform and post their stuff and gradually build a solid following, all of their efforts on their old content is wasted.

They can't be rewarded beyond that 30 day period. This means that the system is encouraging shock or trendy content. As opposed to high quality content with real lasting value.

This is systemic though and not anyone's fault.

I think what msgivings did was a stroke of genius, she got what she earned.
Some people got their feelings hurt in the process though.

'Technically' how? There isn't an 'official rule against it'. There aren't any official rules at all, other than what the blockchain does, which is money-follows-votes.

If people don't like it, they can vote otherwise, comment about it, post about it, etc. But when this sort of response becomes hostile and negative, then some of us are going to consider the response to be abusing the system as much or more.

The system is more than the code. It's more than the blockchain.
It's the people in it.

People befriended or at least identified with msgivings because she was saying some powerful stuff.

Look at my response to her abortion post. I NEVER open up like that. Whoever was behind the account found a powerful author who could make people feel stuff.

People formed an emotional connection with a non-existant entity. But what's worse about this is that there was a real entity a real person or persons behind the account. So where did that emotional investment go? It disappeared in a puff of smoke when she did.

Frankly, I want whatever author(s) behind @msgivings to know they reached a deep emotional place inside of people. Even me and I don't usually leave myself open and vulnerable like that.

All these people talking like they're mad? She touched a lot of people and they're really just mad she wasn't the person they thought she was.

The system is designed to be subjective and emotional. Exploiting the emotions of others in order to gain a financial advantage is all I mean by abusing the system.

Frankly she could come back tomorrow, say "I'm sorry guys I didn't mean to trick you. I was paying for content to be written. The thoughts and topics were mine but I paid for quality writing so everyone could enjoy it because I'm not that good of writer. Then I bolted when I found that someone I paid to write had plagiarized cuz it freaked me out."

I'll bet you that post would be the highest rated post for the entire day, probably the whole week.

God bless the Steem and person(s)/bots that got away with it :)

@ricardoguthrie, @samether, @williambanks, Do you see Steemit thriving if it becomes mostly arbitrage? I am actually asking. I admit I think it won't. I really don't understand things at this level. It does seem like such a shame that so many people would donate their time trying to grow real community only to have it ruined by brilliant moves. I think I'd be okay with @msgivings getting away with it if I didn't assume that it undermines what so many great people are donating their time to build here. One of my favorite Steemarians may have left already and it breaks my heart. Please tell me Steemit will be around next year if the number of @msgivings increases?

Thanks for your amazing response @williambanks. I didn't mean to imply that you were endorsing @msgivings. I certainly have experienced first-hand the impulse to upvote a person regardless of content and I imagine that it is what will win in the end regardless of anyone's intentions. I don't mind the popularity contest or even it being outsmarted. I know that you devote a lot of personal time to making Steemit a great experience for a lot of people. I'm doing that increasingly, too, and at the expense of my home's cleanliness. What I'm hoping to know..and maybe you said it but I didn't understand...is whether Steemit would be able to support a much higher number of users doing what @msgivings succeeded at. If so, I'm all for it.

Thanks again for your response. You're definitely one of the people making Steemit a wonderland of curiosities. :)

I'm not endorsing what @msgivings did. I'm explaining she was never a bot.
The move was a stroke of genius and I will always admire anyone who can make the rules of the system work in their favor though.

I think steemit will fail if we value the content more than the creator.
We seem to be trying to build our "feelings" around the content instead of the person who made that content.

When we try to build friendships with people, then we upvote their content regardless of quality, because we want them to succeed. When we curate, we try to find content that we think will trend and that usually means a handful of people and again quality doesn't really factor into this. So curation is now pretty much a bot task.

My answer, all things considered, would be to tie earnings to a combination of rep, followers and time on the platform. New accounts should max out at a tiny fraction of the total pool that day, while older more established accounts that have had time to mature and grow would gain a larger slice of the pie. I think that if we're going to have a fixed daily distribution then it's looking more and more like an earnings cap might be a good thing too. Maybe not a daily one, but a weekly one probably wouldn't hurt. Otherwise uncap the fixed distribution amount so people can feel like they have some value for their individual contributions.

I dunno if that's the right answer, but I fail to see why an introduceyourself post should earn one dime more than @gonzo 's epics for instance.

Steemit is a popularity contest though, like all social media.

Sorry that should have said something a bit different.

The scam meaning they had connections to extract maximum value. In otherwords they weren't really who they presented themselves to be.

Can you think of a better way of phrasing this?

I shared every idea of yours yesterday. So this is conflicting. I would avoid the word if I were you, as you are not directly meaning it. Imho.

Who did they 'present themselves to be'? Did anyone think that @msgivings was someone's real name? Did @msgivings claim that? No, and no. It was presented as someone writing under a pen name, which is exactly what it was.

We aren't agreeing to disagree. We are in agreement.
What I'm doing is trying to explain both sides to the other side.
It's sad to see any creator leave though.

Calm down. The sham here is the same as any catfish that's all. People formed an emotional connection only to find out that this connection was never real.

We will perhaps have to agree to disagree, possibly based on some emotional harm you perceive yourself to have suffered. In the future, I might suggest maintaining a bit more emotional distance from someone you know only as a pseudononymous writer on a web site, and even then only for a short time.

@msgivings never claimed to be anything other than a writer. To this day, @msgivings, wherever, he, she, or possibly they, may be, is still a writer. Nothing has changed except that someone providing content that many valued (though it seems laced with some plagiarism, unfortunately) has been driven away.

As I said elsewhere, I consider that to be the real abuse, or possibly the worse abuse. Plagiarism is fixable with an edit and an apology. Hostility, negativity, and driving people away damages the platform and community at a much deeper level.

yeah, short time because we brought it fucking down like a pigeon with a shotgun,
might I note, it could have lasted forever....

I am glad that different people are voicing their different opinions about how content is created and what is fair. Thanks for sharing your thoughts; very well stated.

Thank you I'm glad to know my opinions are appreciated. Just curious but what are your thoughts?

I choose to not take sides, just enjoy reading everyone's opinions.

I will say that I've been through this before! This is very similar to what happened on YouTube exactly 10 years ago. People came on VIDEO and viewers got emotionally attached to them. Turns out they were actors. For example: EmoKid21Ohio, lonelygirl15 and LittleLoca. Here's one article for reference: http://youtubestars.blogspot.com/2006/09/lonelygirl15-story.html

I'll just say something general on the topic. I am all for whatever content brings people to the site! 10 years ago, the actress playing lonelygirl15 went on the Tonight Show and put the spotlight on YouTube when it was still small. Her videos were extremely popular and was most subscribed at one point.

I appreciate Stellabelle's point of view and yours as well. I also really like to read the thoughts of @smooth. I don't know who he (I think he is a he?) is, but I find him to be consistently logical and level headed. If it turns out he is an AI program, my feelings would not change! :P

Yeah don't get me wrong here. My primary point was that AI has never advanced to the level that we need to be bothering ourselves trying to call someone out as a "bot". Having even a quasi-intelligent conversation pushes the bounds of AI.

My problem with stellabelle's position was that she said she lived in Japan or something and somehow knew that no asian would identify as asian. Yet I know plenty of asian's that do. I frequently identify as European despite my last European ancestor leaving the continent 200 years ago.

She was using that to call out a user who she suspected of being a bot. I was trying to show that the logic of "inconsistent use of English" demonstrates absolutely nothing.

Interesting background. I wasn't aware of the details of early youtube successes and how it parallels Steemit in some ways. Thank you for sharing that, and also for the kind words about me or the bot version of me, who can say.

@smooth speaking of bot versions of you I thought you might enjoy this...
https://steemit.com/anarchy/@williambanks/towards-a-better-tomorrow-part-4-the-final-destination

Also you're no bot. You might have hired one but you are an individual with thoughts, feelings and emotions all your owned. You see I know you're not a bot because no one programmed you, but you.

Same with all of us, which is why "spot the bot" is a dangerous game that will alienate those who really are trying their best to contribute. Overcoming a language barrier is no small feat even if you don't get it perfect or need tools to do it.

You have created a great post, thanks :)

You're very welcome and sorry about the attacks on your character you suffered. People think because they lived in a place they know all about it.
I lived in a place for years. Doesn't mean I know jack about the people living there now.

That is life @williambanks, so I just have to get used to it, no harm done but thank you so much for your comment, I appreciate it. Once again, I think you wrote a great post, and I totally like your point of view, we should all take it easy right?
I'm sorry to hear about your vision, but I believe you will stay strong to overcome all difficulties, fighting !!!

Ah thanks! I really appreciate that!
I guess my point was more along the lines of I'm rapidly coming to the point where I can't proof read anymore.

I may just switch to straight podcasting and speech to text / text to speech and pray for the best. Either way, English is my native language and I have always sucked at it.

When you hire people to write content, you don't have to attribute - you have paid them for the copyright, and once money changes hands you own the content and the copyright.

Stellabelle should have known this, because she has said she spent years writing for clients too...

No "scam" involved - just someone treating steemit like a business and instead of having a one-man operation, they have a team. It's not really that different from the curating teams the whales have hired, who also curate for money paid to them by the whales.

My assertion there was sham, not scam. People formed an emotional bond because msgiving's was presenting her stories as first hand accounts of her life. This left people feeling manipulated when it was found out that they weren't. It didn't help matters any that she was trending every single day from day one.

We're all trying to get a bigger slice of a progressively smaller pie and that whole pie is worth less and less each day by design.

To me this is the biggest problem with the platform and unless we fix it, other platforms will come along and do it better, putting systems in place that don't encourage devaluation, and Steemit will become obsolete.

I completely agree with this. Something needs fixed, I'm just not yet sure how or what specifically needs to be fixed here.

With 176 votes, you receive $ 16.39 while others with 35 votes win $ 380. I digest bad!

Lol, thanks for the support. Literally right after you posted that we got a flood of upvotes, so now you can sift that decimal point to the right a notch!

.......consider $30 to be a really damned good day.

Today must be a Stella Bella Day ;)

It isn't entirely accurate. Once the floor is reached (in two years?), the pie is designed to not shrink. The reward pool will increase increase slightly each day, maintaining a constant fraction of the total money supply. We are in the initial distribution aka early adopter phase where the reward pool is a fixed number of STEEM, and STEEM has often, though not always, tended to decline in value.

Simply describing it as being worth less and less each day by design is greatly oversimplifying.

I agree that it is an oversimplification, but 2 years is a long time on the world-wide-web. A lot can happen between now and then and the recent trend is concerning. We now have less people posting, voting and interacting with the platform than ever before. The market cap is tanking, the price of STEEM is now under 50 cents. The diversity on the trending page has gone way down, out of the top 10 right now, 5 are about Steemit-specific topics; and the diversity of authors on the trending page has gone way down. These factors will continue to compound. The less people make, the less work they will put in to the platform; which will cause the quality of the content to go down and less people to sign up. I love the platform and plan to keep using it, but the way things are looking right now, we just don't have 2 years.

Fair enough. It was an oversimplification. Good explanation, I was unaware there was a floor in 2 yrs or that anything happened in 2 years except for the initial distribution phase being complete. Guess I'll have to go back and red the whitepaper again.

While Russia is no third world country, I don't think so, at least. There is the fact that $1 USD is about 50+ RUR at this point, so getting about $10 daily can really help someone out. And Russia has the 2nd largest % of people that don't really speak English, and don't actually want to, right after China.

So I can REALLY relate to the fate of the translator/editor. Since I do my work for a % of the post payout, I can feel the redults of current algorithm, and the system gaming quite acutely. I charge 10% of the SBD payout, but right now a lot of good posts consistently pay less than $1, even with 100+ upvotes, like this one.
While perhaps I need to rethink my payment schema, doing something about the payout system, might be nice too. For now I consider it part of my investment in the Steemit community. If the community does not see that as a worthwhile investment, at some point I might stop, but that point is yet somewhere in the future. At least my follower number is climbing. Not that it is doing me any good, other than disqualifying me from supoort from Curie. :)
Anyhow, I might change my view point after I post some time in the future, but I am yet to understand the relationship in what I post, and how much effort I put in, and the payout.
Another thing that might help me out, is participation in the community projects, and my best results are from there, although that is probably because the algorithm is not involved in any way.

I actually have faith in the algorithm after reading the White Paper, but it is probably going to be at least 3-5 months till things stabilize. Good luck for prople who are pulling consistent rewards yet, they are exposing the bugsmon the social side of the system. Quite a bit of the algorithm is dependent on it, as is always the case in communities. It would probably be simple if everyone was a bot here. ;-)

Great! I completely agree with me too! ;)
So what are some solutions we could come up with?

That's brilliant. I have used Fiver.com a couple of times to get things layouts or graphics done quickly, but I hadn't even considered outsourcing my own writing. I like my own voice. I wouldn't want to dilute that, but I can see where it's a solid business proposition.

Coincidentally, yesterday I wrote a piece incorporating an article on the "behavioral immune system" you mention.
https://steemit.com/science/@plotbot2015/who-is-looking-for-cheap-political-advantage-could-it-be-satan

How will you read our articles after your eyes go? Do you have a text-to-speech program, or is that something to request from the Steemit developers?

And how will you post your own stuff? I consider it valuable and want to see it continue.

@plotbot2015

I like my own voice too. I would never hire out for that.

Maybe I'll hire some folks on fiver to record themselves reading for me though! :)
I dunno man, I'm just coming to terms with it.

@williambanks plz check my latest post and see how transformative some bots are. They are truly empowering.

Now, for a moment think that someone profited handsomely. Should this be a problem at all ?

That was really cool!
Yeah I'm not seeing a problem except the content wasn't bot generated and stellabelle was trying to call someone else a bot too.

Great post @williambanks.
Perhaps there's still hope for your eyes to recover. Found this at allaboutvision.com

Two large, five-year clinical trials — the Age-Related Eye Disease Study (AREDS; 2001) and a follow-up study called AREDS2 (2013) — have shown nutritional supplements containing antioxidant vitamins and multivitamins that also contain lutein and zeaxanthin can reduce the risk of dry AMD progressing to sight-threatening wet AMD.

Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Couldn't hurt to give that a try!
I really appreciate it!

I would have to do that for any translations. The one time I did that with a graduate student, though, it was painful. Her English, although far far superior to my zero-level Arabic, wasn't far enough along to deal with the large amount of slang and idiom in my writing at the time.

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