The seed of self-upvoting was sowed more than 12 months ago, hf19 just watered it.steemCreated with Sketch.

in #steemit7 years ago (edited)


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It took two distinct mutations for Lenski's E-coli to become Salmonella.
The first, while necessary, was unspectacular.
The second saw visible results so it got all the fan mail.

A quick steemit history lesson.

More than a year ago, authors and curators shared the post rewards 50/50.
A post would show $100, but the author would only get $50 of that, and only be able to cash out $25.
(The rest locked away as SP, for 2 years then, 13 weeks now)
It was changed to 75/25, no doubt in an attempt to encourage quality posts, under the assumption that 25% was sufficiently lucrative to encourage sound curation.

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That was a long time ago and it had no immediate, obvious impact, but it planted a seed.

Fast forward a year: Hard fork 19 leveled the playing field and was met with widespread enthusiasm.
The hated quadratic equation was gone, and every vest was finally worth the same.


From the White Paper...
In order to realign incentives and discourage individuals from simply voting for themselves,
money must be distributed in a nonlinear manner. For example a quadratic function in votes, i.e., someone with twice the votes of someone else should receive four times the payout and someone with three times the votes should receive nine times the payout. In other words, the reward is proportional to votes squared rather than votes.
This mirrors the value of network effect which grows with n2 the number of participants, according to Metcalfe’s Law


This speculative change made Steem power less valuable, dropping the price as I predicted.
It also triggered a wave of self upvoting, and a subsequent wave of posts suggesting changes designed to limit our capacity to do so.

But prohibition has never worked anywhere, with anything.
There is no conceivable change we could make to stop people from being able to upvote their own posts or comments.
Between delegation, sock puppet accounts and vote-for-vote agreements, it's just not possible.
We can't make the self upvote less lucrative than it is, but we can make it less lucrative than an alternative.
We can't take their ability, but we can take their willingness.
We don't have a stick, so we have to use a carrot.

If we move back to the original model, where the author gets 50% and the curators split the other 50%, we make deliberate, careful curation potentially more lucrative than self upvoting.


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Ironically, if the changes had been made in reverse order; if we'd dropped the quadratic vote weighting a year ago, and halved the curation rewards a month ago, the self upvote would have still only just arrived, but this solution would have been immediately obvious.

I can't see much support for walking back a month, undoing the recent change; and I don't think doing so would really address the problem, but if we pull this thing up by the root and make curation the focus it used to be; and was always meant to be, very few people are going to want to waste their voting power on their own low quality comments.

They'll stop spamming crap, they'll stop forming cliques and jealously monitoring members for compliance.

They'll start actively seeking out unnoticed gems, and getting their upvote in early, maybe with a resteem to boost their own take even higher.

People are going to get a return on their investment.
It can come from self voting or it can come from curation rewards.

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Brother, I wish I had seen this when you first published it. Sorry I missed the curation window. You know what? I'm going to go find one or two of your recent comments and up vote the heck out of them... :D

As usual, Matt, you've got a brilliant solution here to the one thing I find most annoying about Steemit - that people aren't reading my writing.

Everybody here right now (perhaps except you and a microscopically small group of others) is here to write and get rewards for writing.

Of course, you can't really blame writers for that, because that's what we do... However, what good is a community where everyone is talking all at once and not listening?

Your genius solution would shift the balance to where we would finally have people signing up to read and enjoy the work of excellent authors.

Thanks, man, for hitting the nail on the head - again.

😄😇😄

@creatr

Thanks mate :)
Let's hope Ned and the boys are keeping their eyes open for solutions.

Well, I love this. But I make all my money on Steem through curation, so of course I love it.

I completely agree with your submission. Make curation more lucrative, and self upvoting will become old school.

I don't really have an issue with self voting per se but it gets my goat when someone comments, self votes and doesn't vote for your post. I had a person I won't name do that on one of my posts last week, Upvoted themselves $12 and didnt vote for my work. That's just rude and insulting really. A bit of polite etiquette needed there I think.
I agree with the carrot method as I don't like the idea of forcing folks to do anything here. Many of us came for the perceived freedom the platform affords writers and incentives are always better than coercion. IMHO

Yes, that is really annoying!

Exactly. I don't blame people for gaming the system if the system let's them; dont hate the player, hate the game.

Im hating it all at this point! 👍

There will always be a flaw in the system and its natural for people to look for 'work arounds' to enrich themselves. Again that's ok as far as I'm concerned providing those who do have powerful votes who are currently voting for their own comments try to be better role models to those coming through by at least sharing the votes and not using other people's work as a catalyst to fill there own wallet.
Children mimic their parents and learn through watching those around them I'm sure people do the same here. Who knows? Maybe I'm just old fashioned.

I am Groot! :D

Love the Rainbow lorikeets by the way, I always had them on my balcony in Manly.
They used to fill the trees in the evenings., the noise was defending. A nice memory for me.

I lived in Manly for 3 months in '96.
Beautiful spot.
It was the School of Artillery at the time, now it's the Biggest Loser house.

Wow. I was there 91-92 & 94-97.
I wonder if we were ever in the Steyne or Shark bar at the same time?
Small world eh!

Yep. Those were the spots.
I was dating a local girl so I didn't spend much time out on the turps with the lads.
I was only 17 at the time.
I remember listening to the radio in my room there when news of Martin Bryant's rampage came through.

Were you a dropshort, or a cloud puncher like me?

Just a travelling Pommie dude.
Drinking you dry, refusing to wash etc 😂

I totally agree !👍

I've had that too, it hits you right in the feels.

I am with you on this, @creatr passed this on for me to read, I dislike seeing members voting for there own comments but I remember there was a post going round telling people to do it just can't remember what post it was. I think sheep one person starts others follow,

Unfortunately, in the current environment, a self upvote is typically the most valuable use of one's voting power.
We can blame people for acting rationally, or we can give them a better option.

Give them a better option definitely

Good idea.

Something definitely has to change - there is so little interest in content nowadays with post views being at an all time low. At least that's what it feels like. And reading comments these days is just so annoying ;)

It's hard to wade through the dross.
I also have a suggestion to minimise spam which I think has potential.
Thanks for dropping by.

@mattclarke I think you are onto something here. I really have a dislike for the self-upvoting of comments. Too often do I see someone post a low quality comment and then self-upvote it, often giving it more value than the original post. Then the commenter doesn't even upvote the original post. Greed has become more noticeable since the latest HF.

I do understand why you might self-upvote your own post, particularly if you have pumped a lot of time and effort into. Comments, however, are another matter altogether. Thanks for sharing your views.

We're all 'greedy' in a sense. I'd just like to see that greed harnessed toward building this place instead of tearing it down.
Thanks for your input.

You always make such good points man.

Interesting idea. There have been a lot of tweaks in the year I have been here, and even more before that too.

I wonder if there is a middle ground between linear and quadratic that balances equality of votes with the network effect of voting for popular content? If I recall correctly, @nonlinearone proposed an alternative. I had a quick look, but couldn't seem to find it.

I think you are on to something with the emphasis on curation as an incentive to spread your vote though. Has anyone done any studies on the effects of HF19 on curation and whether minnows are now also earning more on this front too?

I can't see how quadratic weighting is meant to stop self upvoting.
I can appreciate how it would keep minnows honest, but whales with sock puppets can make money hand over fist.
We need to stop trying to stop it, and start looking at making legitimate voting more attractive.
How's your little girl doing btw?

Self upvoting isn't the problem. The problem is when people self-upvote and no one else agrees the content is worthwhile. Quadratic weighting stops that, assuming everyone is equal in vote power. Because a post/comment with one vote will only get one ten thousandth of the reward (that is to say, nothing at all) compared to a post/comment with 100 votes.

In practice, people are not equal so this model is false, and it was largely false in the original whitepaper as well. What it really did was let orcas and whales self-upvote or vote for their friends or business partners while the bulk of the user base might as well not vote at all.

I didn't know there was ever a 50/50 split with curators. That must have been changed pretty soon after the launch. I'm not so sure I agree that a return to 50/50 is a good idea. Without content creators, there is nothing to curate. Creating content requires more time and effort than consuming and curating, so I'd say a 75/25 split is more appropriate as it is reflective of that fact.

I'll take 50% in an atmosphere of frenzied upvoting over 75% in this barren wasteland.
It's a smaller slice but a bigger pie ;)

It was changed a couple of months after launch, slightly before the first payout (July 4, 2016). But in fact the change was much greater. Early votes reduce curation rewards further (the so-called reverse auction), so in effect the split is more like 88/12 (estimated number from a few months ago; might be slightly different now but it is clearly more lopsided than 75/25).

Great point smooth. Thanks for chiming in.

I only joined a month ago after HF19 I guess and now I see the difference between the steemit back then and the steemit now in terms of curation and rewards. Thanks for sharing!

Welcome aboard. It's still in beta, so we have a lot of these type of discussions.
Hang around, cultivate a following, and a year from now we can reminisce about the good old days of mid '17.

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