Reward Pool Rape: Downside of Steem Blockchain innovate nature Or Abuse of Free will?

in #whalepower3 years ago (edited)

Many steemit members are aware of the whale civil war going on here for months now due to some people posting 8 to 10+ daily posts and thus making average of 300SBD on each post which led to @berniesanders taking the fight (mostly alone) to those gangs and calling for other whales to help him fight the fight due to its complexity.

This resulted to some members, examples @fulltimegeek, @hendrix22 joining to help flag such abuse -however their efforts are overwhelmed by the huge steem power controlled by the abusers and the scale of abuse in steemit . Most recently, our dear wild man: @papa-pepper wrote an OPEN LETTER TO STEEMIT INC., THE WITNESSES, AND THE WHALES see link here
In which he suggested them to implement a daily post limit of 4 in order to solve the issue of daily post abuse, especially from those that posts 6+ to 10+times daily .

Conversely, however, in light of @papa-pepper prudent suggestions, do you guys really think that limiting to 4 daily posts will help stop the issues? What if steemit members reaches 10+ to 100+ millions members, won´t 4 daily posts flood the system? Most importantly, is´nt it true that steemit blockchain innovative nature which creates platform for many innovative apps allows for such massive daily post?

Here are some few points:

Note: There are many people and issues raping steemit reward pool (spams, bots, last minute comments and posts upvotes, mass accounts etc) however, for the purpose of this post, I will focus only on posts daily limits.

Pic Source:

Steem blockchain: Steem blockchain is an amazing blockchain and superior than most other blockchains with regards to transactions speed (faster than ethereum and bitcoin combined) . Moreover, it powers many platforms like steemit (blogging platform like facebook, Reddit ), Zappl (like twitter) , Dmania (jokes ), Dtube (Video like Youtube) , Dlive (videos ), Busy.org (blogs) , Utopia (projects) etc.
Therefore, how can the post limit works when members are given many amazing platforms to post daily? Example, one can easily upload 4 funny pictures on Dmania without adding a sentence, one short video on Dtube or Dlive, one post via steemit , 4 short messages via zappl etc leading to many posts a day.

Soultion:

There is no perfect solution to this. It Is just like in Germany where most of the cars built have huge speed/horse power and you want to impose speed limit on the high way? Then why build the likes of Porsche, Bugatti, BMW, Mercedes, Audi and or Lamborghini? Conversely, however, free will doesn’t mean that we should abuse or flood the system with massive posts without thinking of others who also want to be seen or noticed.
In light of these facts, I support imposing daily post limits (I might indicate 2 or 3 however it might not be the right number and people can always open another account and post/spam their contents , therefore it is the duty of our dear community members and witnesses to agree on the best number) and any posts that goes above the agreed limits will not receive reward. This will help curb such issues-however , imposing posts limits goes against the concept of decentralization ! and might cause issues isn´t it?.

Quality and Engagement: No one can ever posts 4+ top quality posts daily and at the same time engage with those that comments on their posts. Therefore, guys we need quality posts and not quantity. Moreover , try to bring out time to at least respond (at least try) and reward those that bring out time to read and comment prudently on your posts-this will motivate them to continue adding good suggestions to our posts. Thinking only of yourself by posting many times a day and thus not having time to respond / engage with the community is bad for the ecosystem.

What do you think? Send in your comments and or suggestions, resteem and upvote in order for others to join.

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The solution is concawe (sqrt-like) reward curve.
And ban from exchanges to any abuser accounts.

Nice post.

what is nice about the post...bot?

Your point exactly, Right? I have no clue as to how to effectively stop the abuse without hurting the overall vision of the platform. It's just a shame that we even need to have this conversation.

interesting ..
In the end who work hard deserve
Great post .. Thank you for your words

A friend of mine told me that there were 4 post daily limit imposed before which was later removed. I think coming up with say 2 to 3 or max 4 posts daily limit will help stop the abuse however as you indicated people might open massive accounts which is going on anyway! the system is designed with limitations however which system is perfect? thanks for your post...hope the decision makers read this post and act accordingly.

Yeah the 4 post limit was around for at least a year. It didn't stop this. Not one bit. They just used multiple accounts instead.

It did however frustrate a lot of new people trying to use the platform.

Didn't know about the 4 post daily limit as I joined June last year. I think limiting should be considered.

If it doesn't solve the problem then why should it be considered? All it really impacts is new people. Some people like to post a lot, some people don't.

As to the whales or people raping the reward pool. Limiting number of posts even if you limited it to a single post per day wouldn't stop them at all.

They would simply use multiple accounts with delegated power.

If you remove delegated power then they'd just go back to what they did before delegated power and power down their accounts and then power up across many smaller accounts that could all up vote each other.

So limiting the posts WILL NOT solve the problem.

Yet it will introduce potential frustration for new users that don't understand why they are being penalized for how many times they post.

It won't impact me either way, as I did just fine with following the 4 post limit for the most part. Yet sometimes I artificially stopped and did not write something I wanted to write on a day due to being at that limit.

Very good comment indeed, Upped. However, doing nothing is not a solution isn´t it?

No, but neither is doing something that won't work just so we can virtue signal that we did something.

If this was an easy problem we would have done something years ago.

If it hurts user experience, and is easy for the people that are exploiting the system simply by using multiple accounts then implementing it is not a solution. It is just reacting and making things worse for other users.

Is there a solution waiting to be found? Probably, but it will take some serious out of the box thinking and is likely not going to be as easy as limiting the number of posts.

Good point ..limiting posts goes against the concept of decentralization isnt it? thanks a lot for your comments and suggestions.

I don't know that limiting goes against decentralization if it is limited equally on all users. The biggest problem with it is it imposes restrictions, but doesn't actually resolve the problem it is proposed to fix. I mean they did try it for over a year. I didn't see and difference really.

There have been people more concerned about exploiting steemit than making it better since I started here around July 7th, 2016.

This is a problem with us being idealistic. I don't know of any system man has created, any form of government, any corporation, any religion, etc that over time is not corrupted by simple faults of human nature.

No, but neither is doing something that won't work just so we can virtue signal that we did something.

😂 😂

Sure. Your position and argument is germane. Let's hope for the best. Thanks for the response and let's steem on 👌

What about the decision to only post one post every 24 hours. Sure people could make different accounts, but if you are only able to post once, it may not be worth all the headache to continue to make all these different profiles in order to post multiple times?

What difference is there in posting 10 articles using 1 account versus posting 10 articles using 10 different accounts?

It would seem to me that it would be more of a pain to open 10 different accounts on here, with the crazy passwords and such. It would probably divert those from going through all the trouble to make 10 accounts, or 8 accounts, or really 5 accounts.

You can change the password.

Good points in your comment, thanks and I wish you a happy weekend.

I think limiting the number of post won't do much good. I even doubt if there's any. The things is, this platform offers us the option either to lift up or pull down someone's work. We'll just have to choose which one we'll take.

The only thing that MIGHT have impact is to remove support from bad actors, and if you catch them doing negative things make a post exposing their acts without calling them names or bad names and they'll either choose to change or perhaps more and more people will stop supporting them based upon what you reveal.

The sad thing is some people will latch onto them regardless like a ramora (leech like fish attaches to sharks) in hopes of getting nice votes from them. These hangers on could become their only subsistance, but overtime these ramora like posts gain power too due to these posts and it shifts the power towards those that don't really give a damn about the system overall as long as they personally benefit.

(whispers...the 4% don't play by our rules or ethical standards....ever..)

Sure... but ramoras latching onto them in hope of getting scraps doesn't help either. It actually gives them more power.

the ramoras can be the 4 % also- sneaky twats, they get everywhere..

That's definitely one of the main things I dislike about Steemit. I find it a bit contrived the way people only ever comment positively on posts, even with certain content that isn't original and borders on shitpost. Everyone just wants the nice vote from the big whales. You have to acknowledge the real posts that benefit the community.

I want to believe that attempting to remove the bad actors from the platform will be a way to cleanse Steemit from the raping and pillaging.

It does seem counterproductive to limit new users to 4 daily posts, but maybe it would exclude them, or anyone under a certain age or Steem reputation.

Is there a happy solution out there that doesn't penalize the new users because some asshats out there are abusing the system? I would love to think so.

And how does one catch a whale?

incentivized social projects have this problems everywhere . People tend to make more money and you cant blame them . WE can stand united and let the good deeds outpace the spams . Thats the only way . Of course we need technical help as well. Just my opinion.

Good point, thanks for your comment

the solution is simple, give people the option to take a bigger reward cut from curating and they wouldn't have to spam anymore.
I know a whale taking a big reward sounds unfair but we should consider the fact that they invested into steem while they could invest the same money elsewhere and take bigger profits.
investors give the currency value, keep pestering them and they leave with their money, each time a big investor sells his/her steem, your steem loses some value so, be nice.

So your solution to those who posts 10+ posts daily is to give them more money and they will stop? Lol

no, I said give them more money without the need to spam.
if you want to solve the spam problem, that's the way. if you think people shouldn't seek profit from their investment, there's facebook, tumbler, twitter and many free blogging platforms for that.
steemit is all about money and everybody want's a piece of this money, those who invested more in steemit should get a bigger piece. wouldn't you agree? and don't tell me you're not here for the money because I would ask you to prove it.

Point however human nature will not allow them to be satisfied...that is the issue

The fact that the other apps feed into the Steemit blog means that what is proposed will not work. Like you said, 4 zaps, which are nothing if it does indeed become like Twitter, would use up the daily allowance. People send out hundreds of tweets a day.

Also, I fail to see how limiting the number of posts is freedom. We claim to be non censoring yet by limiting, we are shutting people up. There are accounts on here that act as "news" accounts. Certainly, there are more than 4 things happening in a day.

As I posted this morning, the power is shifting as more people sign on. Right now on person can make waves with the pool being so small. Get another million people on here and the impact is much less.

People can downvote and that is one avenue of the system. However, if 1,000 people went out and got 10 people to sign up (granted the sign up process cant handle that) and they posted 10 times each day, that would be 100K new articles posted...that would dilute the take home of a certain few individuals.

The fact that the other apps feed into the Steemit blog means that what is proposed will not work. Like you said, 4 zaps, which are nothing if it does indeed become like Twitter, would use up the daily allowance. People send out hundreds of tweets a day.

Right, that was another issue that I overlooked in my initial suggestion. Thanks!

Good point hence why I extended the discussion here in order to reach more people and continue finding solutions...thanks for your great posts @papa-pepper and sending in your comment here.

If nobody was voting for those 100k articles you'd have a lot of disappointed users. Trying to displace the ever increasing and determined haijin is a nice idea but why would that affect the reward pool rape? He's got much more shares in ONE VOTE, one ONE POST than all those 10 people. How could you realistically keep up without flagging?

It is simple...he only has the 10 votes...unless he wants to do more and cute down the voting weight on each post. Either way he is maxed at 10 per 24 hours (at 100%).

If those downvoting starting posting, especially the heavy hitters, their author rewards would dilute the reward pool, taking away from Haejin. The reward pool is what it is on a daily basis....the only variables are the number of posts and the voting power that was voted.

If the number of articles suddenly went from 70K a day to 210K a day, this would dilute the reward pool by spreading the payouts over the other articles. A tripling of the articles, especially with heavy SP people posting, would overwhelm him. He simply cannot ramp up to keep pace.

It is akin to the stats I have posted for the last month talking about the power of the whales and orcas decreasing. For the past 120 days (the time I looked at) the few with the big SP are simply losing power as a percentage of the whole. This is because all the new people posting who are taking a little here and a little there. One or two means nothing. But when 10,000 people are doing it, it starts to add up.

Author rewards are 75% of the reward pool....posting is the quickest way to dilute it...especially from one person.

No it wouldn't because there would be 100000 posts that are worth 0 shares. The power is still being voted on only a few posts.

Okay if you say so.

How would 100K post be worth 0 shares?

Because you got 100k that are 0 votes.

Not if everyone used their 20% daily voting power.....

And I am not sure 40% of the posts on here get 0 votes.

Do you have any evidence of this?

Even 100K at .01 would be 1000 which would offset the single offender a great deal.

rancherorelaxo has 1.3M SP. A new account has .5sp and 15 delegated, so about 16 sp. 10000 users couldn't negate the content if they flagged directly. Math.

If those 10000 people voted on other things it wouldn't do 1% the damage that flagging would do, but then nobody would get rewards and it's pretty lame to hold 10000 people to be responsible for not even 10 percent of the voting power of one user.

What 0.01 rewards? If the SBD payout is < 0.02 you get zilch as an author or curator. It gets zeroed out. I have had lots of posts with ranges of like 0.004 to 0.019 all get zeroed out when 7 days is up. And the fact the site half rounds up the reward display is also discouraging because it will show 0.02 for a 0.015 post, which then gets zeroed out after 7 days. Very bad psychologically for minnows and plankton. Especially when the 0.02 display (which looks like it is at payout threshold) for a 0.019 payout turns into 0.00.

I can see "news" as several digests or an other app with a few accounts like "sport news", "scince news" and so on. They can be added on separated accounts and be reposted at one account (even without an app).

So I do not think 4 posts is such a limit. I never posted more than one per day )))

I agree. In fact, you convinced me, 4 times a day is too much. Everyone should post once a day.

And while we are at it, why stop at only the number of posts. No posts over 500 words. At the same time, we should limit it only to topics no controversial subjects..hence no political postings, nor religion, nor sports.

We will limit it to only attacks on fiat, bread making, and how to make your home more cozy.

Havent we seen what limitations do?

I guess not.

It's still very strange that you advise everybody to be prepared to become a newspaper ))) and publish all hot news at one account.

Why then we need so many of them? Let's become readers and have just one with unlimited publications.

Did I say everybody become a newspaper?

There are accounts on here that act as "news" accounts.

Nope I didnt say that....

But let us look at what you did write...

I can see "news" as several digests or an other app with a few accounts like "sport news", "scince news" and so on. They can be added on separated accounts and be reposted at one account (even without an app).

Ah, you are all for limitation. So you see a few accounts for news. What is someone doesnt want in those accounts...or like the form of 'news" that is issued.

Why then we need so many of them? Let's become readers and have just one with unlimited publications.

According to your logic, why not just have one person post on every subject we can think of and we all can read that.

I guess you are all for limiting behavior on here.....

Sad to see.

Personally, I am for freedom not slavery.

In fact, when I think about "news" and "digests" I do not quite understand why self-upvoting is cosidered like an abuse.

Creating a platform, buying steems to have a power to make money for the work done, to pay to authors, designers, e.g.

Ok, we suppose that other person can appreciate newspaper work, but why then to buy steems for such projects? They will be created just for raping the pool?
Don't think it's all the questions for you - they just came to me with this discussion.

Good point indeed, I am for freedom too however as you know my dear buddy, people abuse free will!!! hence the need to put in mechanisms to tackle such abuses-that is the main theme of the post.

Good point, thanks for your comment

Very good comment indeed which acts as a solution for discussion. Thanks you so much for your suggestion which is highly appreciated

Nice comment I guess also as we grow in numbers in steemit, with many posts, those who post multiple times daily might not find it that rewarding...right?

Quite an explosive topic. To take sides means you might get burned in the process but the cross of the matter is there is serious abuse going on as regards multiple posts a day for those who earn much. Common sense should come to play for those who abuse the system and are been asked to stop but will they? Well human nature wouldn't allow that.
Nice one as always. Upped

I agree..human nature will always take over

I can certainly agree with a max post per day limit, 3 or 4 seems like an reasonable number, perhaps a maximum limit to how much a vote can be worth regardless of SP but allowed more votes to compensate for high SP holders as a preventative measure and would also promote voting on more posts instead of one large dump on 1 user/post . Many of the post that make the trending page by the same people everyday should be considered of abuse of the blockchain and reward system when they are poor quality. Another problem is abuse of the voting of bid-bots. I wish bid-bot owners would be more thorough and have better quality requirements to obtain such a vote. Much of the trending page has been filled with low-level content and bad pictures voted to ridiculous amounts. As new users join, that's the example they see to make it and will act in the same way. Unless a solution is found before the masses flow in. Thank you for talking about this with your level of visibility, maybe a solution can be found before it devalues the platform's future. I like steemit even with it's current flaws and I would be sad if it failed, it has so much potential to change the world in various ways but it must be used responsibly in order to achieve that goal.

Thank you so much for your prudent suggestions...I wish you a blessed weekend.

Thank you , have a great weekend too @charles1 :)

You are welcome, always.

I agree with @taskmaster4450 that limiting number of posts isn't the answer. There will be a handful of talented folk who can kick out more than 4 high quality posts in a day and I think it would be a shame to enforce arbitrary limits and deny this creativity and freedom of expression.

I personally believe that the solution lies in tackling self-voting and this needs to be addressed with some sort of max vote amount and degradation in value over say a 24 hr period. Say 100%-80%-60% etc per post down to 0%. So you would put your best efforts into your first 3-4 posts per day (which feeds into your suggestion by a different route) as you know the next 5-6 aren't going to get (as) much on your self-votes. Maybe start with a $100 max self-vote at 100%. For those who aren't in it to milk the system, they can quite happily carry on posting in a day beyond this limit and will have to rely on the voting public for any further upvotes. (what this doesn't tackle is collusion...suggestions please!).

Just a thought.

Good suggestions , thanks for your comment.

Heard from a fairly reliable source that self upvoting restrictions are in the new, yet to see production, fork.

Except that now you send them to vote through a proxy, all day long, all you've done by limiting self-votes is created one hurdle for some quite determined people.

If you have the steem power to join the fight please consider that the tools are already there and as nice as it will be to have some arbitrer do all the "hey, you're being a greedy bastard" , it's irrelevant. The user has demonstrated that they don't care about engaging, don't care about being sensible and believe that they are entitled to rape the rewards for everyone. He should have been flagged hard a LONG LONG time ago, he's making a mockery out of sharing economy, he gives literally no more than $10 worth of effort per day, compared to every other chart analyst and eats up single digit percents out of the reward pool. As other's have said
"The only thing that MIGHT have impact is to remove support from bad actors, and if you catch them doing negative things make a post exposing their acts without calling them names or bad names and they'll either choose to change or perhaps more and more people will stop supporting them based upon what you reveal."

Good point indeed, that is the main aim of this post. I am sure that those involved might not change, however they should know that we will not stop talking about it and looking for solution untill at least they listen to us. The platform is not perfect (no platform is) , however we can make it more beneficial for all members by being a bit responsible

I don't think any artificial limits will stop what the community deems bad behavior. Downvoting, flagging, and conversation is the only thing which may help. Whatever system rewards bad actors will always be exploited. Yes, we need to do everything we can to make that difficult, but at some point we have to talk to those who support the "abusers" with their votes and make a case for them to stop.

Thank you so much for your comment and suggestions.However as you know, flagging and talking did not work in this case because their greed surpasses common sense.

The great thing about the 4 post limit. Was that it wasnt a hard limit on the number of posts.

You could if you felt like it still happily post ten times a day. It is just that for every post above the four you made the less rewards over all of your posts you made for that day. It was a fantastic abuse limiter.

So if someone claims that they really love posting ten times a day, well they still can. Happy people.

However you will find that if the money isn't there then they just simply won't bother

Hahahah, a very good point indeed. Hope the witnesses will think about working on this suggestion. Thanks for your comment.

I have noticed from the comments that may think that the four post limit was an actual limit. It wasnt.

You could post a hundred times a day its just that it would impact your rewards. So if someone eants to do that then they can. But it comes down to the money. So I tihnk it would work

Same here too..I really hope that the witnesses read this and think about imlementing it again eventhough those involved can always open new accounts and continue isn´t it?

Conversely, however, in light of @papa-pepper prudent suggestions, do you guys really think that limiting to 4 daily posts will help stop the issues?

Nope, not with alt-accounts and upvoting comments.

There is no perfect solution to this.

Sad but true.

Thanks very much for keeping discussions like this going in the community. On the bright side, we are blessed to have a ton of very talented and intelligent steemians from all around the world who really care about this platform and its future. We will see what happens. Thanks @charles1!

Excellent comment from @papa-pepper will have to take a look at your own post relating to this topic

Vou are welcome @papa-pepper , thanks for all your support and great contents. I wish you and your family a blessed week

Fantastic post! Some great ideas here. I don't think that limiting daily posts will help, since new accounts can be purchased for 3 steem instantly. Users could just delegate SP to multiple accounts and spread posts between them to work around the limit. I'm in favor for more powerful curation groups with good guidelines that people can join which match their posting criteria. There are such groups, but they need more support and SP behind them. there also should be more specific curation groups, such as a group just for Steemit artists which are HUGELY undervalued and desperately need support. Users could create such groups and have a mandatory auto upvote of a certain percentage for posts featured in the curation group. The issue is that the whales on here need to open up and delegate a good chunk of SP to curation groups so that they can support the upvoting procedure with an effective upvote according to the quality and effort put into the content. That way users posts would be fairly compensated for their efforts. How do we convince the whales??? hmmmm....

Good point indeed however in reality, it will be hard to work due to human nature (greed for money)...

There is parts in Germany where you have no speed limit on the motorway so you can go as fast as your car can go.
I hope that there will be soon a solution to this problem here on steemit because if not I don't see a bright future for the platform. Just wait till Dan has the steemit clone ready and running on EOS or the Winklevoss Twins bring out a new decentralized social media platform I am sure a lot of steemians will move over. So it would be very important to solve this problem that the people start trusting the platform again if not I am sure there trust will go and they too.

I agree with you...competition is coming this year and ths solutions to current issues should be implemented even if some will disagree with it. Moroever, I am from Bavaria and can speed as I like in my Highway..Lol

Cool ich bin aus Berlin lebe aber seit 5 Jahren auf Mauritius werde dieses Jahr aber wieder nach Berlin zurück gehen. Das erste was ich machen ist Papas 600 S Class auf die Autobahn bringen ;)

Hahahah 600 S Class das ist cool....Viel Glück und Schöne Wochenende

Danke Dir auch noch ein schönes Wochenende :)

Bitte schön

Many steemit members are aware of the whale civil war going on here for months now

Years.

Damn, so long? thanks for the info..

They already had posts limited to 4 per day for over a year. That doesn't stop the reward pool rape. It only hurts new people that don't know about it. You could change it to 1 post per day and it still wouldn't stop this.

They just switch to using multiple accounts and up voting each other.

So imposing LIMITS will not stop the people raping the reward pool, but it may upset and frustrate other people. If it'd actually fix it I might support reducing the post count, but it doesn't.

Oh and they could just go back to voting their own comments up to insane amounts and because comment reward pool and post reward pool that results in the same problem.

So post quantity is not a solution. We did try it for about a year (maybe more).

Damn, the problem is bitter than I thought!!! comments reward pool is also an issue...

We used to have a daily post limit of 4 which must have changed at the hard fork I dont remember why im sure its complicated ! lol! But I think a limit of 3 posts per day in steemit , (not including other places you post from like dMania etc. ) Would be perfect ! I can barely get out one good quality post per day or every other day , the rest is from dMania or just short stuff etc! then if you post over the limit you will lose a percentage of your payout , like it was before ! I dont know why they changed it , but there must be a reason !? Anyways thats it for me , haha Good night my friend !Upped and resteemed👍👍👍

Thanks for your comments and I hope you sleep well

I think this whole system is designed for abuse, be it intentionally or unintentionally.

Maybe the rewards should be on a sliding scale, the more someone posts the more should go to the curation pool. Maybe it should even be logarithmic so it feeds the whale for the first few posts each day then quickly switches back to rewarding the community.

Sliding scale might be a good one..thanks for your comment

I think this might always be an issue with platforms like Steemit, but maybe it'll be less of an issue when there's more users making content and steemit has mainstream adoption.

Good point, however if there is no solution, then the issue will go out of hand

Great post @charles1, been wondering what happens to those "whales" that been making a fight of what. Quality over quantity.

Flag war continues

I hope you don't caught in the middle of it😂

Hahahah 😂 hence why am being diplomatic in my posts ...I do not attack or accuse people rather stay in the middle and ask for solutions.

Therefore, guys we need quality posts and not quantity.

This assume that quality is the purpose of Steemit. I would posit that is not the case as I did a few weeks ago when I wrote Don't Piss Down My Back And Tell Me It's Raining.

I am not making a value judgment here as to if the purpose should be quality, I am simply saying that someone looking from the outside in would not think, "gee, I need a great article on 'x', I will go check Steemit." Now if they were looking for information about Steemit, BTC, cryptocurrency, self-help bull$&!^, or boobies they would have come to the right place.

Dang, must be following the wrong tags
No boobies on my feed. 😎

No boobies in my feed either. Boobies. It is just funny to say. Boobies. See, boobies are now this little discussion of boobies is in the blockchain forever...good thing I will never run for public office. Boobies.

Good point however still we better see quality posts in order to learn from it than seeing mass copy and paste or one pic posts..

there is no solution for that.Because any kind of measure you take those who hold the SP.Will still find the way to earn and rape the pooI mean ow rd is it to make 2-3-420 accounts and post from all of them is you reduce the limit in 1 post a day And they ll upvote themselves....
The only way for me is identification.

Good point however am sot sure that ID identification and verification will be allowed

There could be a waiting time, 1 post every 3 hours, a timer that wont let you post until 3 hours is over. Might help slow them down.

I agree , however most that post 8 to 10+ daily posts post every hour flooding the whole system. 3 hours time interval might be ok however they can always pen multiple accounts

I'm very new to steem and just learning what the term whale meant. When it comes to money humans will always take advantage of a good system that could help us all. It only takes a few and they destroy opportunity for everyone. I totally agree with your ideas and your concerns.

Welcome and see my older posts for tips on how to succeed here. I wish you success

They were still doing it when it was 4 posts. Or they were up voting their own comments to the same effect.

The problem with dealing with this and other negative things is that for each proposal made there is a quick and easy workaround.

Usually it just involves having more than one account.

All that removing the 4 posts did was make it a little less tedious. However, the 4 post limit was confusing and limiting to new steemit users too, and that is a big deal.

So removing that didn't create a new problem.

It just made a problem that already existed (using multiple accounts and up voting comments) but required a LITTLE extra work.

Would I love to see it fixed as well as the subjective down vote, I can't think of a way that I can't also think of a way to circumvent.

Good points indee, thanks. Hopefully we can find a pragmatic solution to the issue because doing nothing is bad

This argument is just timely. Many steemians especially beginners feel intimidated by the surge of posts from the bigger colleagues and the obvious neglect of their posts no matter the quality. Focusing on the quality of posts rather than quantity will go a long way in bringing out the best in steemians. Many are ready to make genuine inputs but neglect can be discouraging. Thanks for coming up with this wonderful idea.

You are welcome and feel free to see my older posts for tips on how to succeed here. I wish you success

fine..
impose posting limits per account
(on the rich guys).
they buy more accounts.

Good point indee, I agree. Then what do you suggest? because doing nothing is worst isn´t it?

I suggest NOTHING.
the problem does not exist
it's a molehill not a mountain.
a tempest in a teacup...

nope..doing nothing is far..far..far from the worst.
I'm an old ammo troop (munitions..bombs and stuff)
we had a saying..
"if you don't understand it.DON"T FUCK WITH IT"
it's obvious you don't understand the SteemEcoSystem
(doesn't anyone? It's evolved rather quickly to be extremely complex)

So

DONT FUCK WITH IT..

unexpected consequences is a thing.

Ok you suggest not doing anything and allow it to correct itself -this is ok however many will argue that change happens when we all sit together and find a pragmatic solution ...at least try. Another topic: do you think that Sola or any other upcoming platform will be good enough like steemit?

you should like Sola
it's doing exactly what you want to do with Steemit.
they're enacting new rules daily.

Good point , I have an inactive account there . You never know, Sola might grow big and wait for @dan ´s EOS alternative to steemit ..interesting days ahead.

I would opt out for a max of 4 posts a day. I usually post 3 times a day and I am a beginner. I have a lot of enthusiasm, but I put myself in the reader position also and try not to be a spammer. I don't like long posts that take a lot of time to read but I don't like posts that consist of a downloaded picture with a title like "beautiful sunset" either. I am not a judge on steemit, but I prefer to read quality and precise posts and that's what I intent to do. I have big hopes with steemit and I squeeze my brain to put good content on it.

Good point indeed. Also feel free to see my older posts for tips on how to succeed here. I wish you success

I will. I am following you to see your new ones also.

Daily Post Limit

Perhaps better than limiting users to 4 post per day, instead install a mechanism whereby a poster can flag a post to be 'monetized. When monetized posts are upvoted then the crypto awards are applied. If not then only the rep rewards are assigned. Users could then monetize a maximum amount of posts per day (eg. 4) and any additional posts would not be rewarded with steem but only in reputatiom rewards.

Good point, thanks for your comment

It's tough to ascertain what would be the best action simply because it's a medium that's getting very popular .
If you create a new rule limiting everyone to 4 posts...wouldn't the go around be... create another handle on Steemit?
If anything that could also open the floodgates to people doing this.

It's quite the dilemma to be honest.

On one hand you want to folks to express themselves in a decentralized forum (which to myself supercedes Twitter/FB by a mile)

On the other limit abuse of all sorts by limiting post quantity.

its a tough call.

great topic btw @charles1

Good point indeed hence the open discussion. However doing nothing is no solution

Doing something is important.

It is just important not to do something just so you can say you are.

Come up with a possible idea. Then start doing mental experiments.

See if you can come up with ways around this. See if it impacts the experience on the site negatively, keeping in mind people like to post in different ways.

The problem with MOST ideas I've come up with and other people have come up with is it is easy to find a way around them.

In general this is as simple as using multiple accounts.

So while we DO need to do something, it is going to take some serious out of the box thinking.

Good points indeed, thanks for your suggestions and I hope thathe witnesses will join you and come up with a workable solution

The problem really is that none of us have come up with a solution yet. People have quickly tossed some "solutions" out there, but those are generally very easy to get around and might make the code more complex, performance worse, overall experience worse, while not actually stopping the intended practice because people get around it. Sometimes they even open the door to worse exploits.

This is a VERY challenging problem.

Ultimately I think we are trying to find a programatic way to solve the problems of human nature.

As far as I know no one has solved those problems throughout recorded history.

We can resist them, we can be vocal about them, we can try to be a positive example standing against the negative, but we cannot truly eliminate it.

The potential for these faults to rise lies inside each of us.

Definitely @charles1,doing nothing isn't a choice as well.

To make this community last a long time...something does need to be done in regards.

The more i think about it, creating a way to separate quality vs quantity posts might work.
(for example,limiting the meme posts not the photography posts.)

This is definitely a discussion i'll be watching all day.

Good point, however those people posting memes might feel cheated isnt it? which is not right because we are suppose to be in an uncensored platform

If the number of posts per day should be limited shouldn't the number of comments per post be limited also?
more than five comments per post is reward pool rape isn't it?
(if not rape-rape then heavy petting)

Lol, good point indeed because some people do cheat via comments however posts are a bigger and more issue - hope we find a solution

like i said above...no need for a solution because there is no problem.

Ok, we close our eyes and let it slide!!!

its very bad and steemit should make new roul of posts that every one can 4 posts and maximam 5 not more. and this war will be ended . and steemit is not place of war this is place of peace and success

Good point, thanks for your comment

I just wanted to share about some of the advantages that I had when I decided to post about every 5 days with only one article. I am still quite new to the platform about over 70 days. Recently, I started posting with a gap of 5 days for each article intentionally. It has given me more time to think about what to post as well as visit my upvoters articles to see whether any good articles for upvote since I don't offer upvote for upvote as it is against steemit rule. By posting every 5 days, I actually received more upvotes as my followers can have the time to upvote my posts since the latest post is what most people will tend to upvote. Anyway, this is just a short sharing of my recent experience.

Good point...I did the same when I was new here ie posting 2 to 3 times a week and commenting / upvoting on many people posts. I agree, all depends ...

@charles1
We are certainly still in early days regarding this innovative platform, and certainly we will be faced with many such issues which will eventually resolve itself through effort from various concerned community members.

It is unfortunate that we end up with members abusing the platform. It does bring attention to the loopholes within the system.

Hopefully it will all work itself out sooner rather than later, and hopefully this does not end up ruining it for everyone.

Good point indee, thanks a lot for your comment

this restriction is impossible to create. it's like limiting other people's efforts to work. such as limiting crypto money to expand. limiting the development of information.
then from that in need here is to promote writing quality content. let's together we prioritize a better quality post. and we upvote that we think is very qualified, not just upvote. Thank you for sharing this,,, im so proud of you,,,

Good point, thanks for your comment

You are welcome my friend,,, :)

some people are runing this platform by posting nsfw content

It is allowed and they have a special tag...you can chose to ignore it

You now that you can increase you payouts fast just using BOTs? Learn how here:

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Hail @berniesanders,💪 hail steemit😊

I totally agree and whilst the whales fight amongst themselves they are taking away any reward from us minnows whatsoever. I have had so much advice from perseverance to promoting my posts from various people but to no avail. Many times it has had the opposite effect. I had just over 4sbd and used 1 per post after advice and it made no difference whatsoever. This is a community and we need to help one another not fall into the gaping jaws of greed. Peace.

There is no reward pool rape. It's distribution. So for instance, when Coca-Cola or Nike buy 3M steem power and upvote it's followers how you gonna call that?

Good point, however the post is about finding a solution to the current whale war due to many people not being happy with excessive daily postings and earnings by few. Any suggestion?

I'm new to Steemit. It takes me up to a week to formulate and write a post. I try to work on quality rather than quantity otherwise it just becomes the same dribble as Facebook. I haven't been around Steemit long enough to really understand the ways in which Steemit is being abused but I guess when there's money involved people will find a way. Welcome to the wild west of the internet.

Spammer ...you didnt read the post!!!

Buen post, gracias por la información.

You got a 2.99% upvote from @postpromoter courtesy of @charles1!

Want to promote your posts too? Check out the Steem Bot Tracker website for more info. If you would like to support the development of @postpromoter and the bot tracker please vote for @yabapmatt for witness!

Everyone of us has a freewill and even in real life, we can choose to exercise the freewill or not. We can't expect everyone in this platform to be saints because that will be the stupidest thing we can expect in any community or culture. We may not stop others from abusing anything but we sure can choose whether we abuse our own or not. It's again, in the end, up to us users.

Well the steem software is on something like its 20th fork, so software solutions are the surest way of dealing with such symptoms. Otherwise another greedy son of a seadog picks up once the evil whale is beached.

Well, I guess you're right. We can't really trust all the whales in here can we?

Indeed not. On one analysis post about the Cave Troll there was an indication of muliple Cave Troll accounts syncronizing with witness voting. If the Cave Trolls get a good faction on the Witness Circle of Twenty then barring software solutions could become a reality.

Remember that voting for choice of witnesses is weighted as well. A whale has more say than those at the bottom of the tank.

With only approximately 4% of accounts voting on Witnesses such a faction need not be comprised of an unrealistic amount of whales to tilt the voting scales in their favor.

so i would have no chance to get big?
;O

Congratulations @charles1, this post is the forth most rewarded post (based on pending payouts) in the last 12 hours written by a Superuser account holder (accounts that hold between 1 and 10 Mega Vests). The total number of posts by Superuser account holders during this period was 1618 and the total pending payments to posts in this category was $11593.22. To see the full list of highest paid posts across all accounts categories, click here.

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i agree with you, but i agree to 4 post suggestion also as no one can write 4 good post in one day.... ;-)