RE: Convince Me! Challenge: Why you still eat meat (extended deadline and update)
@evecab - I haven't had a chance to read all the entries, so I'm not sure what you are reacting too. I included the the word arrogant in my post, but certainly no personal attacks. As you were not specific or about who or what has offended you - let me put out a response.
and others tried to get under my skin by calling me arrogant =) Of course, that’s against the rules too. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you, insulting me is not gonna get you my SBD people…
My introduction to the challenge was simply ;
...the challenge itself has a thread of arrogance and naivety, and definite confusion (as the cat caption suggests) which makes this type of activism irresponsible and irrelevant. The entire debate, around whether to eat meat or not – should be a non starter! It is birthed out of a couple of the false notions that is somehow taken way too far!
There was no personal attack on anyone... (that is a perfectly legitimate way to critique an article that has an agenda). The response was somewhat provoked by I'm confused cat caption.
However, I think this is simply a way to side step the valid arguments that were made. Throwing the baby out with the bath water. I'm cruelty free too - I don't bite hands...
To recap - I don't eat meat because:
- At scale veganism doesn't solve a thing! The world is over-populated.
- Veganism is less but not entirely cruelty free, and the cruelty factor increase with scale. Wild animals displaced due habitat loss. Impact of fertilizers, insecticides etc. for fresh produce production.
- Vegan-ism & Cruelty free-ism is another -ism that is being exploited by capitalist. it's a fad-die lifestyle and if that blows your hair back, cool.
- This contest should be attacking mass production of meat rather than trying to achieve that aim by singling out meat eaters. The people that produce meat also produce fresh produce - so fight with them. If you don't there is hypocrisy for supporting them.
- Everyone on the planet owes their existence to meat-eating at some point in there heritage. Don't be too quick to discount it.
- Finally, should we have crisis of food... like many people do! What would you do? Would you sacrifice yourself for that animal?
So, if there is anything offensive about my post, please let me know so I can deal with it .
Thanks for your response @rlt47 =) It's funny how people misunderstand and therefore dislike vegans a lot (and I don't like the word VEGAN because it's just another label), but I think what most vegans are about is activism for animal rights, not diet. A small portion may be vegan to lose weight or some other BS, but that's not what the core belief is about IMO.
I see that we can both agree that it's the mass production of meat that should be targeted. These are the ones guilty of literally torturing animals to death, and those are the ones I'd like to stop. Take the recent chicken scandal of Mc Donald below:
Unfortunately I cannot walk into a building with a machine gun and shoot everyone (OK NSA this is just a joke!), so I have to fight with the weapons I have at my disposal. I believe that as consumers, we vote and fight with our wallets, so if we stopped consuming meat for a while, things would have to change. So my little challenge here is not an attack on meat eaters at all, it's an attempt at making people care about, or at least be conscious of an issue. I hope this clarifies my intentions =)
@evacab - Awesome we have a point of departure, so let me further elaborate on why I 'criticised' the presentation of the contest so aggressively...
Vegans and Meat eaters are not that different - I would like to eat a 'happy cow' without additives an unnatural processes involved. So, I agree mass production is the culprit.
Your stated outcome is:
Now let's review my main criticism:
I think by targeting meat eaters, to achieve your objective is counter-productive. Let look at the results of this contest thus far - 80% of the participants were alienated to the cause and there your target market walks away. You should be focusing more on the issue and not on the people. People will come around, if there is no pressure to do so.
I think it's time for animal activist to develop an inclusive strategy that includes meat eaters so they can build a support base. By getting meat eaters and cruelty free to divide on the issue - mass producers of meat and fresh produce can merrily skip along unhindered!
so what would be your strategy in fighting the big food industry, if not by cutting off their source of income?
@evecab - this too is an extremely complex issue.
Consumers have been conditioned into current habits over decades if not centuries. The food industries are owned by the 1%-ers. These people own everything else. More importantly they manipulate supply and demand. So be careful - they're that powerful. They dump tons of good food each year so they, lose out at the markets.
The most viable alternative we have is producing our own food. When our great grand parents gave up their land (or when it was stolen from them) - that's what we lost this battle, because then we became dependent on the current system.
I disagreed with numerous of your points and don't have time to get into a long winded debate, but.. Couldn't help but point out this comment..
"At scale veganism doesn't solve a thing! The world is over-populated."
Doesn't solve a thing? Wow. That's quite the perspective to have. I'm not sure what you mean when you say the world is over populated and how veganism doesn't help with that.. It's a really really strange statement to hear.
The world isn't overpopulated in my opinion, it's just run very poorly. There's plenty of land and food for everyone, especially if people stopped eating so many animals, a study just came out the other day reaffirming this and it's not new news.. Anyone who has studied the subject in detail knows that it's much less demanding on the planet to just eat plants, and that millions of starving people could be fed if we stopped feeding so many of our plants to livestock. You could essentially solve world hunger by going vegan and you're saying veganism doesn't solve anything? Just wow.. I don't understand.
Also one of your other points..
"Everyone on the planet owes their existence to meat-eating at some point in there heritage. Don't be too quick to discount it."
That's like saying.. Oh.. Everyone on the planet owes their existence to war and rape at some time in their heritage, don't discount war and rape! sigh..
@apolymask - thanks for you response and comment.
Inaccurate absolute statements are fun. :) Especially after you cite opinions. You seem to have your mind made up despite the overwhelming evidence, so no need to try to continue with you. I've met many others who think they know everything and trying to debate with them is like trying to debate a brick wall. It never goes anywhere. My time is precious. Enjoy your inaccurate views.
Pretty sure I did read your full response, and you didn't mention all those things and not all those things are true. Even if they were, it's not a justification to continue doing such things. Looking to the past is no justification of what to do in the future, people used to think slavery was okay and that women shouldn't have rights.. Just cause people did stuff in the past is no indication that it's right. A good example is thew treatment of animals, just cause they've been abused and exploited in the past is no reason to continue to abuse and exploit them. This is the golden rule and basic empathy and dignity.
@apolymask - Here is the link to my full response:
https://steemit.com/istilleatmeat/@rlt47/my-convince-me-challenge-why-i-still-eat-meat-more-correctly-why-i-include-meat-my-diet
I think we are drifted off the point quite considerably. When I insert some your views into my world view, it throws out some contradictions and I'm sure the reverse is true. But I think that's the reason we had this contest in the first place, to challenge those opposing views - whether they lie in fact, fiction, opinion, tradition, culture etc.
For me particularly with this contest I'm finding that :
I think until vegan-ism can fully convince meat eaters about these issues without offending them, not much will change.
Veganism is essentially an effort to reduce harm to animals within reason. It's not perfection, but people who use that label try to reduce harm to other beings within reason.
Not sure what your question is here? Did you miss a word or two?
To answer the part about them being used as pawns. I would say.. Yes probably.
Depends on who you talk to. There's a lot of different kinds of vegans.
There are some good vegans out there who do a wonderful job of not insulting others. BUT.. At the end of the day, we're talking about an immoral act here, and I think oftentimes it's more the person who is having this immoral behavior pointed out that is becoming extra defensive.. And with good reason. I mean.. We're telling you to stop for a good reason, but no one wants to hear they are doing something bad.
It's very similar to trying to tell a drug addict to quit doing the drug they are addicted to so much. It's very hard for people to let go of things they enjoy, and especially in this world where food is one of the last pleasures people have after they slave away their whole lives.. To take that away is like an injustice. But.. The real injustice is the animal that lost it's life when the person could have eaten plants and most likely even been healthier and helped heal the planet more as well.
In regards to your sentiments, I do think we need more peaceful vegans, but sometimes some people need hard language too. Some people won't respect you unless you lower yourself to their level and speak to them in a way they understand. So.. I think it depends on the individual. Some will be awoken by the asshole vegans like vegangains who yells at everyone, and others by joey carbstrong who is super peaceful and respectful.
I personally think that it is a mistake by the vegan community to dilute this argument. They will have more success by sticking with is line of thought. A direct approach.
Apologies, should read:
a lack of stated clarity concerning what the actual outcome is for veganism - Is it specifically targeting "meat eating" or the "mass production of meat" OR are meat eaters being used as pawns in a battle with mass producers of meat?
I think by making meat eaters unwilling participants in this cause could be counter-productive to your objectives. Let look at the results of this contest thus far - 80% of the participants were alienated to the cause and there your target market walks away.
This isn't unfortunately does a lot to undo the hard work you guys put in as it dilutes the animal rights side of things.
Define immoral act - What are speaking about? Unfortunately this also very loosely defined.
Is it eating meat?
Is it commercial production of meat?
Is is the act of purchasing mass produced meat?
And taking it a step further why is it not immoral for vegans to support outlets that stock mass produce meat or meat per se depending on your definition?