Convince Me! Challenge: Why you still eat meat (extended deadline and update)

in #vegan2 years ago (edited)

Convince Me Challenge - Extended Deadline

DSCN0148.JPG


Dear participants of the Convince Me! challenge

I’m very pleased with the amount of participants so far, I want to thank you all so much for taking me up on it and putting your ideas in writing. I have decided to extend the deadline of this contest until Sunday, April 1st for several reasons:

Some of you had great posts but I couldn’t accept them, because they didn’t follow the rules. Some of you didn’t resteem or upvote the contest, some just left your response in a comment instead of writing a new post, and others tried to get under my skin by calling me arrogant =) Of course, that’s against the rules too. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you, insulting me is not gonna get you my SBD people…

The main reason however that I wanted to mention is that a majority of participants didn’t understand my question, and that may be my fault for not explaining properly. I’d like to clarify:

My question was not only about why you eat meat, or why you think vegans have got this all wrong. My question goes deeper, and is an ethical one. That’s why I didn’t want to hear any arguments about nutrition, because it’s out of scope.

My question was: Why do you still eat meat, knowing that animals will suffer for it?


The second part of the question is what’s important.


I don’t really care that you eat meat because you like it (DUH, I like it too, but I don’t eat it). The question is not about whether eating meat will save humanity, about how we have been eating meat for centuries, about hunting practices, about why you think humans should be more like lions, about the fact that plants may or may not suffer too...

Please focus guys!

The question is what is your reasoning with regards to eating meat, knowing that animals are held and slaughtered in horrible conditions. Obviously this differs from country to country, and if it’s different where you live, you’re welcome to explain.

So again, it’s not about protein needs, about religious beliefs or about whether you are afraid to have a B12 deficiency. I wanted you to reflect about ethics, and do some introspection.

Tell me if this bothers you, or whether you absolutely don’t give a sh**?

Tell me if you think about this when you eat meat. Do you wonder where it came from?

If you feel no empathy towards these animals, why is that?

Would you consider ethical alternatives if they were available to you and just as good?


I’m genuinely interested in your thought process, but it is true that I have an ulterior motive: to make you reflect upon an issue that you may not have thought about before. When I still ate meat, I never questioned these things. I just thought about taste and how much I loved those crispy fried chicken wings. Then someone opened my eyes about what these animals go through and I changed my mind.

The end result doesn’t matter to me. Of course, if you do change your mind about eating meat, I would be ecstatic, but what matters is to show me your thought process.

If you think your post was out of scope, feel free to edit it, or resubmit a new one if you like. I will look at all of them again on Sunday

Here are the rules again:

  • Resteem this post so that this challenge gets maximum exposure and upvote it (I will pay the rewards from my pocket).
  • Please link your post in a comment below. Make a thoughtful argument for your case. You have to use logic. I will judge your entry by your ability to articulate your argument.
  • Use the tag #Istilleatmeat
  • No insults to vegans, no disrespect to anybody in any way. I will flag any insults coming from vegans or meat eaters. This is supposed to be a friendly discussion, and the goal is to encourage dialogue and self reflection.
  • Your post can be video, podcast or a written post

8 SBD is a lot for me, so I really want to make sure to give it to someone who put in the effort

I look forward to reading you =)



If you'd like to be mentored on your writing or presentation skills, and receive feedback on your posts, join our Discord channel here

Banner.jpg

Sort:  

I like your contest idea! Sorry for jumping in on some of the answers.. I just can't help myself sometimes when I see people say such inaccurate things, I feel compelled to try to help show them the evidence I've found that is contrary.

I'm going to send you an extra 2SBD that you can put towards the winner. And I'm also going to give you a follow and an upvote cause I support the message and what you're trying to do!

this is very nice from you, and this is how everyone should be / think on steemit!

Thanks for the nice words! Also.. Looks like you're an animal lover as well. :) I'ma check out your page as well. Cheers @el-cr

thats correct! always thinking and paying attention on how I can contribute in a positive way to our mother earth, and not occupy space as an average human. I enjoy meeting people in steemit that shares same values! Nice to meet you.

That's awesome. :) I have a lot of respect for people who think like that. And I also enjoy meeting people who feel similar about the world! Nice to meet you as well! :)

Wow, @apolymask, I'm speechless! That is very generous of you, and thanks for the support! I truly hope more people participate and aren't afraid to analyze their own behavior. =)

You should join our discord channel Vegans of Steemit (https://discord.gg/VQVzpxw) and I see that you are a martial artist as well =) What do you practice?

It's not much. But.. I've been spending too much steem recently on my own contest, so.. I don't have as much as I'd like to share.. But hey.. A little bit is better than nothing. :)
You're welcome. Happy to help. And.. I'm on alot of discord channels with very little time, but I'll definitely join at least and check it out.

And to answer your question, I'm more of a "no style" kind of person. But one of the styles that I really enjoyed is Capoeira. I love how that style developed among the oppressed peoples, and was fused with dance.. So.. If I had to pick one, it'd be that or Muay Thai cause I feel like the knees and elbows can be so devastating. But really, I think most styles are great and I loved learning about all of the ones I learned about. Including the grappling ones. Also.. I don't practice that much these days, but I feel like I spent so many thousands of hours doing it when younger that it'll always be a part of me and my life.

@evecab - I haven't had a chance to read all the entries, so I'm not sure what you are reacting too. I included the the word arrogant in my post, but certainly no personal attacks. As you were not specific or about who or what has offended you - let me put out a response.

and others tried to get under my skin by calling me arrogant =) Of course, that’s against the rules too. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you, insulting me is not gonna get you my SBD people…

My introduction to the challenge was simply ;

...the challenge itself has a thread of arrogance and naivety, and definite confusion (as the cat caption suggests) which makes this type of activism irresponsible and irrelevant. The entire debate, around whether to eat meat or not – should be a non starter! It is birthed out of a couple of the false notions that is somehow taken way too far!

There was no personal attack on anyone... (that is a perfectly legitimate way to critique an article that has an agenda). The response was somewhat provoked by I'm confused cat caption.

However, I think this is simply a way to side step the valid arguments that were made. Throwing the baby out with the bath water. I'm cruelty free too - I don't bite hands...

To recap - I don't eat meat because:

  • At scale veganism doesn't solve a thing! The world is over-populated.
  • Veganism is less but not entirely cruelty free, and the cruelty factor increase with scale. Wild animals displaced due habitat loss. Impact of fertilizers, insecticides etc. for fresh produce production.
  • Vegan-ism & Cruelty free-ism is another -ism that is being exploited by capitalist. it's a fad-die lifestyle and if that blows your hair back, cool.
  • This contest should be attacking mass production of meat rather than trying to achieve that aim by singling out meat eaters. The people that produce meat also produce fresh produce - so fight with them. If you don't there is hypocrisy for supporting them.
  • Everyone on the planet owes their existence to meat-eating at some point in there heritage. Don't be too quick to discount it.
  • Finally, should we have crisis of food... like many people do! What would you do? Would you sacrifice yourself for that animal?

So, if there is anything offensive about my post, please let me know so I can deal with it .

Thanks for your response @rlt47 =) It's funny how people misunderstand and therefore dislike vegans a lot (and I don't like the word VEGAN because it's just another label), but I think what most vegans are about is activism for animal rights, not diet. A small portion may be vegan to lose weight or some other BS, but that's not what the core belief is about IMO.

I see that we can both agree that it's the mass production of meat that should be targeted. These are the ones guilty of literally torturing animals to death, and those are the ones I'd like to stop. Take the recent chicken scandal of Mc Donald below:

mcdonald.jpg

Unfortunately I cannot walk into a building with a machine gun and shoot everyone (OK NSA this is just a joke!), so I have to fight with the weapons I have at my disposal. I believe that as consumers, we vote and fight with our wallets, so if we stopped consuming meat for a while, things would have to change. So my little challenge here is not an attack on meat eaters at all, it's an attempt at making people care about, or at least be conscious of an issue. I hope this clarifies my intentions =)

@evacab - Awesome we have a point of departure, so let me further elaborate on why I 'criticised' the presentation of the contest so aggressively...

Vegans and Meat eaters are not that different - I would like to eat a 'happy cow' without additives an unnatural processes involved. So, I agree mass production is the culprit.

Your stated outcome is:

I believe that as consumers, we vote and fight with our wallets, so if we stopped consuming meat for a while, things would have to change. So my little challenge here is not an attack on meat eaters at all, it's an attempt at making people care about, or at least be conscious of an issue.

Now let's review my main criticism:

...which makes this type of activism irresponsible and irrelevant. (to be read in context of my full response to the contest)

I think by targeting meat eaters, to achieve your objective is counter-productive. Let look at the results of this contest thus far - 80% of the participants were alienated to the cause and there your target market walks away. You should be focusing more on the issue and not on the people. People will come around, if there is no pressure to do so.

I think it's time for animal activist to develop an inclusive strategy that includes meat eaters so they can build a support base. By getting meat eaters and cruelty free to divide on the issue - mass producers of meat and fresh produce can merrily skip along unhindered!

so what would be your strategy in fighting the big food industry, if not by cutting off their source of income?

@evecab - this too is an extremely complex issue.
Consumers have been conditioned into current habits over decades if not centuries. The food industries are owned by the 1%-ers. These people own everything else. More importantly they manipulate supply and demand. So be careful - they're that powerful. They dump tons of good food each year so they, lose out at the markets.

The most viable alternative we have is producing our own food. When our great grand parents gave up their land (or when it was stolen from them) - that's what we lost this battle, because then we became dependent on the current system.

I disagreed with numerous of your points and don't have time to get into a long winded debate, but.. Couldn't help but point out this comment..

"At scale veganism doesn't solve a thing! The world is over-populated."

Doesn't solve a thing? Wow. That's quite the perspective to have. I'm not sure what you mean when you say the world is over populated and how veganism doesn't help with that.. It's a really really strange statement to hear.

The world isn't overpopulated in my opinion, it's just run very poorly. There's plenty of land and food for everyone, especially if people stopped eating so many animals, a study just came out the other day reaffirming this and it's not new news.. Anyone who has studied the subject in detail knows that it's much less demanding on the planet to just eat plants, and that millions of starving people could be fed if we stopped feeding so many of our plants to livestock. You could essentially solve world hunger by going vegan and you're saying veganism doesn't solve anything? Just wow.. I don't understand.

Also one of your other points..

"Everyone on the planet owes their existence to meat-eating at some point in there heritage. Don't be too quick to discount it."

That's like saying.. Oh.. Everyone on the planet owes their existence to war and rape at some time in their heritage, don't discount war and rape! sigh..

@apolymask - thanks for you response and comment.

The world isn't overpopulated in my opinion, it's just run very poorly.
Unfortunately, opinions complicate matters more. However assuming it was a fact, then still nothing will change! Vegan-ism won't magically make the world better run!

"Everyone on the planet owes their existence to meat-eating at some point in there heritage. Don't be too quick to discount it."
If you read my full response then you would understand that I'm talking about deep ancestry, from ice ages times etc, where growing crops wasn't an alternative. Also there was a period in hum history when nearly all tribes were hunter-gatherers.

Unfortunately, opinions complicate matters more. However assuming it was a fact, then still nothing will change! Vegan-ism won't magically make the world better run!

Inaccurate absolute statements are fun. :) Especially after you cite opinions. You seem to have your mind made up despite the overwhelming evidence, so no need to try to continue with you. I've met many others who think they know everything and trying to debate with them is like trying to debate a brick wall. It never goes anywhere. My time is precious. Enjoy your inaccurate views.

If you read my full response then you would understand that I'm talking about deep ancestry, from ice ages times etc, where growing crops wasn't an alternative. Also there was a period in hum history when nearly all tribes were hunter-gatherers.

Pretty sure I did read your full response, and you didn't mention all those things and not all those things are true. Even if they were, it's not a justification to continue doing such things. Looking to the past is no justification of what to do in the future, people used to think slavery was okay and that women shouldn't have rights.. Just cause people did stuff in the past is no indication that it's right. A good example is thew treatment of animals, just cause they've been abused and exploited in the past is no reason to continue to abuse and exploit them. This is the golden rule and basic empathy and dignity.

@apolymask - Here is the link to my full response:

https://steemit.com/istilleatmeat/@rlt47/my-convince-me-challenge-why-i-still-eat-meat-more-correctly-why-i-include-meat-my-diet

I think we are drifted off the point quite considerably. When I insert some your views into my world view, it throws out some contradictions and I'm sure the reverse is true. But I think that's the reason we had this contest in the first place, to challenge those opposing views - whether they lie in fact, fiction, opinion, tradition, culture etc.

For me particularly with this contest I'm finding that :

  • We are dealing with multiple definitions, of veganism.
  • a lack of stated clarity concerning what the actual is for veganism - "meat eaters" or the "mass production of meat" OR are meat eaters being used as pawns in a battle with mass producers of meat?
  • what is the clear strategy of veganism / cruelty free to co-ordinate and solve the issues at hand?
  • I think many meat eaters agree they prefer non-mass produced foods / where animals are treated with dignity.

I think until vegan-ism can fully convince meat eaters about these issues without offending them, not much will change.

We are dealing with multiple definitions, of veganism.

Veganism is essentially an effort to reduce harm to animals within reason. It's not perfection, but people who use that label try to reduce harm to other beings within reason.

a lack of stated clarity concerning what the actual is for veganism - "meat eaters" or the "mass production of meat" OR are meat eaters being used as pawns in a battle with mass producers of meat?

Not sure what your question is here? Did you miss a word or two?
To answer the part about them being used as pawns. I would say.. Yes probably.

what is the clear strategy of veganism / cruelty free to co-ordinate and solve the issues at hand?

Depends on who you talk to. There's a lot of different kinds of vegans.

I think many meat eaters agree they prefer non-mass produced foods / where animals are treated with dignity.

There are some good vegans out there who do a wonderful job of not insulting others. BUT.. At the end of the day, we're talking about an immoral act here, and I think oftentimes it's more the person who is having this immoral behavior pointed out that is becoming extra defensive.. And with good reason. I mean.. We're telling you to stop for a good reason, but no one wants to hear they are doing something bad.

It's very similar to trying to tell a drug addict to quit doing the drug they are addicted to so much. It's very hard for people to let go of things they enjoy, and especially in this world where food is one of the last pleasures people have after they slave away their whole lives.. To take that away is like an injustice. But.. The real injustice is the animal that lost it's life when the person could have eaten plants and most likely even been healthier and helped heal the planet more as well.

In regards to your sentiments, I do think we need more peaceful vegans, but sometimes some people need hard language too. Some people won't respect you unless you lower yourself to their level and speak to them in a way they understand. So.. I think it depends on the individual. Some will be awoken by the asshole vegans like vegangains who yells at everyone, and others by joey carbstrong who is super peaceful and respectful.

Veganism is essentially an effort to reduce harm to animals within reason. It's not perfection, but people who use that label try to reduce harm to other beings within reason.

I personally think that it is a mistake by the vegan community to dilute this argument. They will have more success by sticking with is line of thought. A direct approach.

Apologies, should read:
a lack of stated clarity concerning what the actual outcome is for veganism - Is it specifically targeting "meat eating" or the "mass production of meat" OR are meat eaters being used as pawns in a battle with mass producers of meat?

To answer the part about them being used as pawns. I would say.. Yes probably.
Just a comment on this,

I think by making meat eaters unwilling participants in this cause could be counter-productive to your objectives. Let look at the results of this contest thus far - 80% of the participants were alienated to the cause and there your target market walks away.

Depends on who you talk to. There's a lot of different kinds of vegans.

This isn't unfortunately does a lot to undo the hard work you guys put in as it dilutes the animal rights side of things.

At the end of the day, we're talking about an immoral act here,

Define immoral act - What are speaking about? Unfortunately this also very loosely defined.
Is it eating meat?
Is it commercial production of meat?
Is is the act of purchasing mass produced meat?

And taking it a step further why is it not immoral for vegans to support outlets that stock mass produce meat or meat per se depending on your definition?

Loading...

people who thinks food as food will never think about how it was been process as food being slaughtered and full with blood shed without any pity..I will never touch the food if I saw it been slaughtered in front of my eyes its look awful and painful. It was just like pleading and begging for it dear life...this will take me a while to forget about it but there will be no over reaction on showing of disagreeing and the fact is it just a food.. and its not relate with the cannibalism anyway...cheers ..Its not a brilliant comment from me and I hope that should answer the required points.

Congratulations! This post has been upvoted from the communal account, @minnowsupport, by evecab from the Minnow Support Project. It's a witness project run by aggroed, ausbitbank, teamsteem, theprophet0, someguy123, neoxian, followbtcnews, and netuoso. The goal is to help Steemit grow by supporting Minnows. Please find us at the Peace, Abundance, and Liberty Network (PALnet) Discord Channel. It's a completely public and open space to all members of the Steemit community who voluntarily choose to be there.

If you would like to delegate to the Minnow Support Project you can do so by clicking on the following links: 50SP, 100SP, 250SP, 500SP, 1000SP, 5000SP.
Be sure to leave at least 50SP undelegated on your account.

Oh it has to be a post? I'm happy to just leave a comment. 😁

I love animals but I still eat meat even though they get slaughtered and such. It's just how it is, even in the wild.

For me it's not about feeling no empathy to animals. It's just how we humans live and eat so I do it. Yes we have a choice on what to eat and I will still eat meat. 😊

Am not planning on convincing anyone to do anything or change other people's mind. We decide what each of us want to do, no one can change other people, change only comes from ourselves.

"It's just how it is, even in the wild."...mmhhh no, in the wild you don't see mass torture and murder of one species on another. You will see animals hunt to meet their needs, not for profit, and no unnecessary suffering =). Only humans do that for profit and for their own pleasure, which is what I'm trying to make people realize.

"It's just how we humans live and eat so I do it." I believe in life it's never OK to "just do something" because others do it or without questioning it's necessity, ethics and fairness.

Thanks for your comment!

Oh that's true. People have dark sides too.

And yeah but we can't convince people to change unless one wants to, however much we try to give our reasons. 😁

You're welcome. 👍

I don't want to win a prize.
I don't have to justify eating meat anymore than eating carrots.
I don't challenge your eating habits. :) Cheers

that's cool, you don't have to participate if you don't want to =)

Justification to others ( in anything, not just this) is a defense mechanism based in guilt or need of approval of some kind.

ergo, if you have no guilt or need of approval you cannot attempt to justify...It makes no sense.

Justification only inhabits the world of the guilty or insecure...
(or part of the 3% of sociopaths of the population -but that isn't really justification, more of a dynamic to 'appear' like it's justification....i'll stop now)

...just sayin.

LOL true =). I already know you have no guilt @lucylin =) I guess I should change the word "justify" to "explain". I don't want anyone to feel guilty lol

I already know you have no guilt @lucylin

You can only have guilt if you think you have done something wrong. (and because I'm perfect, I'm fine! lol)

...don't worry - you can't make anyone feel guilty . You can only point them in that direction, the rest is down to them. lol

'Explanation' is still kind of a justification in this context. ...
(Now I'll shut up again)

Does that mean I can kill and eat people as long as I don't feel guilty? ._. Sweet!

Well, that's your choice - but you might find your tastes conflict with the authorities rules, and find yourself having a long stay in their accommodations (free of charge though, so it's not all bad)

Argument based on authority rather than morality.. Nice! That's the same mentality your government uses to exploit you and other humans. Nice to know you're keeping the tradition of predatory exploitation going!

I was actually being flippant - but your lack of sense of humor is not my responsibility.
..and my argument isn't based on authority - that's your issue.

From a serious perspective.... (seriously, about eating humans?)

Does that mean I can kill and eat people as long as I don't feel guilty? ._. Sweet!

If you feel you have done nothing wrong, why wouldn't you?

Morality is a social construct for the benefit of individuals within societies.
(morality is a subjective code, not an absolute)

Morale codes cannot exist without an authority (from parents, to tribal elders, to the justice system)

That's the same mentality your government uses to exploit you and other humans.

government are political constructs of control. While they use morality as part of that constuct to control, they are not a moral agency.

Societies and their moral codes, superceded governments by millennia..

Nice to know you're keeping the tradition of predatory exploitation going!

If you consume products you are part of predatory exploitation yourself - but don't feel guilty about it. It's a natural dynamic

.....you are just being a little silly with these arguments.

..and my argument isn't based on authority - that's your issue.

That's why when I asked if I could eat humans using your reasoning you said the government wouldn't like it.. ??

I don't even think you understand your own reasoning, you are advocating from authority rather than morality.

"Morality is a social construct for the benefit of individuals within societies.
(morality is a subjective code, not an absolute)"

That's your opinion. I believe in an absolute form of morality. And neither of us can prove this, so.. That's why I say it's your opinion. I do think morality is woven into the fabric of existence. I do not think it is purely subjective, though there is a subjective element clearly or else someone like you wouldn't be advocating for treatment to be done to others which you would never want done to you or your loved ones, just because they are a different species and aren't human.

The rest of what you said is either inaccurate or irrelevant. PS. I'd rather you don't respond. I'm super busy and don't have time to argue with people who have sold their soul and gave up their morality and compassion and who argue for the mistreatment and exploitation of other beings.

#istilleatmeat honestly you came up with something of great Ideology, am a veterinarian and am in a good position to understand this, well animals are suffering for it but honestly some kind of things just have to stay the way it is, meat is very essential for the body its of more nutritional value than plant protein so I guess this is more of a reason why I consume meat even though am a wear the Animal will suffer for it

Meat is not essential. There are millions of happy healthy vegans, some of them are world champions and hold world records in their various sports. Our paleo ancestors ate 99% plants according to fossil evidence of teeth and poop, and if we evolved from apes they also eat 99% plants. To depart from that significantly I think is ignoring the evidence.

I reason with you, you just made your point

nice great article. thanks

this is nice!

Your Post Has Been Featured on @Resteemable!
Feature any Steemit post using resteemit.com!
How It Works:
1. Take Any Steemit URL
2. Erase https://
3. Type re
Get Featured Instantly & Featured Posts are voted every 2.4hrs
Join the Curation Team Here | Vote Resteemable for Witness