Meat addiction
I had a short but interesting conversation with @dannyshine. He's a vegan and I'm a meat eater. He raised an interesting point which I'm going to explore here. He said it could be that meat eaters are addicted to meat.
This is something I've never considered before. Obviously, my first knee-jerk reaction was to think: No I'm not! How can you be addicted to a foodstuff?
Then I thought about chocolate and those tangy fizzy jelly sweets. Well, they're pretty moreish aren't they :P
So, I decided to look into it and give it more thought.
I eat meat every day. Usually I eat only once or twice per day. Not including the Christmas period, where I could've easily won an eating competition, I tend not to snack too much. Occasionally I'll eat some nuts or a bit of 90% dark chocolate. When I say occasionally, I mean once per week or less.
Usually, my meals are meat with veg. I hardly ever eat fruit and tend to keep root veg, bread, rice and pasta to a minimum. So, I'm fairly low-carb and feel better for it. The beauty of this is that I don't get overly hungry with the need to graze on snacks all day.
For me, food is fuel. Saying that, I eat my meals with plenty of seasoning, herbs, spices (and jalapeños!). I love flavours and really enjoy my meals.
But is meat an addiction? I recall the massive rush I felt when I ate meat for the first time (after 17 years abstinence). It could definitely parallel a drug experience. There was an incredible rush and I felt incredibly 'high' for want of a better word.
People can be addicted to all sorts of chemicals: nicotine, alcohol, cocaine. But they can also be addicted to the pleasure they get from other activities. Things that could qualify in this category are gambling (hello cryptocurrencies), sex, shopping, exercise, gaming and religion. These things can be described as an addiction if the addictive behaviour creates problems in other areas of life: financially, socially, professionally and within close relationships. Also, if there is a negative impact on personal health or the health of others.
I remember learning how to play guitar. My fingers were so sore. So blistered. I could hardly bear to hold the strings in place but I continued because my desire to acquire the skill overruled the pain. Desire won. The same can be said for reading. I can read until my eyes are so sore I can barely look at a computer screen (it doesn't hurt if I read actual books). In this case, the pleasure I gain from gleaning knowledge overrides the pain. I did ninjutsu for years. This is another example of overriding pain to experience the 'feel good' of achievement. So, either I have a high pain threshold or can ignore or overrule negative stimuli in order to achieve a goal. And/or I'm just an extremist, a masochist or an addict.
Nowadays, I don't feel 'high' from eating meat. It could be argued that I've developed a tolerance, just as a junkie doesn't get super high from their drug of choice; they take it feel normal again.
I'd agree that I need to eat meat to extinguish some sort of negative feeling. And I'm not talking about hunger. I'm talking about that sensation of just not feeling right. I may feel full after eating a vegan meal but I don't feel satiated. I never did; I was always looking for something to graze on. But am I talking about an emotional satiation or is the body telling me something deeper? It's not linked to a goal or achievement. I'm not driven to achieve any meat goals. Could my body be calling for nutrients?
I'm really interested to hear your take on this. Do you think meat is an addiction? Are meat-eaters just scratching an itch? Or is the body intelligently signalling that it needs nutrients found only in meat?
Let's talk about it.
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Respect @anjkara, this is an honest and courageous look at the playout of this possible 'addiction' within yourself.
As a life-long veggie, and recent full-time plant-based eater (I'm not particularly keen on the term 'vegan' to describe my eating habits as the term seems loaded, and is getting heavier all the time!), I've never felt the lack of meat. Documentaries like 'Earthlings' and 'Cowspiracy' (I'm not going to spam your post with ext. links :) convinced me to stop consuming dairy for humane and environmental reasons respectively. There are also a number of 'vegan' documentaries showing examples of the benefits of such a diet on longevity, dramatic health-improvements etc, as well as examples of 'top' physical performers who outperform meat-eaters - basically proposing (and IMO, demonstrating) that not only is meat/fish/animal consumption not necc., but that consuming it has an overall detrimental effect on the individual as well as the planet (all life).
Having said that, the nature of addiction can be seen to have nothing to do with the substance of addiction itself, rather the state of being or consciousness that constitutes the high. The substance itself is a tool, the vehicle to attain this state of consciousness (holds true for all addictions - heroin, alcohol, shopping, steemit etc :). The desire for the high is simultaneously a desire to escape something in the present (or past-manifest-as-present), it's emotionally driven . A possible path out of addiction may lie in identifying the underlying emotional need to escape. Might seem quite far-fetched when applying to something as mundane as meat-eating, but this is the discussion here isn't it - "I'd agree that I need to eat meat to extinguish some sort of negative feeling." - could be another one of the many paths to self-healing.
(perspective in the 2nd paragraph is derived from Dr David Hawkins lectures on 'Consciousness and Addiction')
Thanks for sharing (and listening :)!
Hiya Barge
Thanks for your comments. Fascinating response!
Yes, I agree the term 'vegan' means lots of things to lots of different people. Labels are so restrictive and can cause cliqueness. Kudos to you for being you without the label :)
'… a desire to escape something in the present … emotionally driven.' Yes, I was wondering about that. Nice way of putting it. It's how to put your finger on whether it is this emotionally-driven desire or whether it is a biological drive for the essential nutrients. It's a puzzle.
Cheers
Anj :)
Thanks Anj :)
Umm, if I may suggest that it may not really need to be an either/or situation. Can both enquiries (at a personal, individual level) not procede independently (also simultaneously)? And may both not be different expressions of the same essential thing within? There are ways of experimenting with (not) consuming various nutrients/foodstuffs and then closely observing the effect on one's body/health/mind over time. It would be reasonable to propose a similar 'observational' approach to our changing moods - the triggers, and the desire for escape. My view is holistic - these inner dynamics are all intimately and intricately connected. And if connections are made, the insight into the connection will always be more than the label of 'this' or 'that'.
Hiya Barge
I love that. I too think holistically, the interconnectedness of all things. This is why I see-sawed from meat>vegetarian>vegan>vegetarian>vegan>meat. The balance was always off kilter somewhere. Like now, for instance, I'm eating meat but squashing the conscience in order to accommodate that. When I was vegan, I was lacking nutrients. Now, I opt only for animal foodstuff from a local farm where I know they treat their animals really well, feed them their natural diet, let them roam, etc. This minimises the guilt as far as possible for me although there's still the residual guilt.
Thanks for the insights
cheers
Anj
Guilt always sits heavy no Anj...esp. if one is sensitive? To my understanding, all nutrients are available in a plant based diet; however I shall respect your own stated conclusions on this :-D. Not sure how you feel about environmental issues, but the agro-dairy industry is said to be responsible for over 50% of global GG emissions; with organic/free range/ grassfed being (proportionally) considerably more polluting than factory farming ('Cowspiracy') - though of course happier animals!
And lastly, there's @dannyshine's (IMO) very valid point 'we are what we eat'; the effect on consciousness of consuming 'dead animal flesh' - absorbing hormones and energies of trauma and fear into the system. And if it is indeed all connected, might this not have an impact on how we feel, and our overall emotional state?
I offer my thoughts with respect and as my opinion only. The honesty of your approch and enquiry into this issue encourages me to speak my peace. I'm not trying to convince or 'enforce' views, but I am addicted to non-meat ;-)
Thanks @anjkara | Peace @spiritualmax and all who experience the issue differently.
Namaste
This is a great conversation. I notice that my daughter's demeanor has changed since she became vegan. She has a much more calm and soft energy about her. I have contemplated veganism/ vegetatian lifestyle but have not committed to any of them. I have a large part of my diet being plant based but there's definately something 'comforting' or maybe addictive about enjoying milk products and meat. I am a northern living person. And, so are my ansestors. I feel that contributes to the liking of these animal products perhaps. Above all, life is life wheather plant, animal or water. There is Spirit imo in all things. And, therefore, mindfulness and gratitude are most important to me when it comes to food. And, to choose to go forward, with the energy gain, in a good way. ❤💜💛💚💙
I think perhaps it comes down to your own personal belief system, if for example your daughter connects the dots with where meat comes from, for her it will sit better and she will be calmer not consuming it, if however she didn't connect them in that way she would probably get calmness from not doing that, perceptions of reality are projected from inside of us all :-)
Hiya George
That's an interesting point. We can convince ourselves of anything if we believe it strongly enough. I get that and have experienced it myself.
Thanks for your comments.
Cheers
Anj
Hiya YogaJill
That's interesting, especially in relation to what @georgemason says below. It's great that your daughter is feeling calmer. Must be good for you too as her mum ;)
I think you've got a lovely attitude in terms of gratitude and mindfulness. This is something I struggle to do without conscious effort.
I also have to remind myself to not get caught in a rut, a way of thinking. I'm scared of beliefs. They feel like handcuffs to me. That's why I'm exploring this subject. I'm in danger of being trapped in the belief that I may be eating meat for the right reasons. In my head, it's all about nutrition, but the doubt is there now lol.
Cheers
Anj
I have given you a full upvote and resteem. It’s healthy and mind expanding to encounter different viewpoints and easy to get lost in an echo chamber on here and other social media.
The whole question of addiction is huge. I have a lot of experience being around addicts and being addicted myself. One of my observations is that addiction is all actually drug addition. Some is actual substance addiction but things like gambling release adrenaline into the body and we get addicted aaa to adrenaline and dopamine. This addiction is often a Methis we used to avoid feeling uncomfortable feelings. I am wondering whether eating meat is also an addiction because often the meat or should I say dead flesh of the animal has all sorts of chemicals and hormones in it including adrenaline from its traumatic life and death.
If you check out my blog you will see that I have re-steamed a post about fruitarian. The question about meat is not just about addiction and not just about environmental degradation and not just about animal cruelty. It is also about the quality of your consciousness and as the saying goes, we are what we eat. You report that you didn’t feel well when you are not eating meat. I cannot argue with that but there surely must be more than one explanation as to why. Many people who want to optimise their consciousness avoid eating the flesh of animals and that makes sense to me.
Sorry this is a bit of An unstructured rant!
Hiya Danny
Thanks for the great upvote and resteem.
Yes, I totally agree. It's important to explore all sides and see what's what. If we don't get together and chew these things over, we'll all just end up in our little niches being non the wiser for the other viewpoints.
Addiction: yes, it's all about those chemical reward cascades.
There could be something in that about the animal releasing chemicals on death. It makes sense. I've read somewhere that animals taste different, depending on how they were raised. They reckon a happy, free-roaming animal will taste better than a factory-farmed one. My own experience is that the organic, natural meat tastes better.
Again, I agree with you. This is why I'm exploring the topic in more depth. I read as much as possible about the science but have neglected other avenues. There could be other reasons and I'm open to that idea. I'm not into being rigid in my beliefs (I hate beliefs – they're like blinkers to new information).
Thank you for your reply and for getting this out to the wider community. I really appreciate it.
Cheers
Anj :D
Yeah I don't think this is on the same level of addiction as what we commonly associate with addictions: alcohol, drugs, gambling. I don't feel an absolute need to have meat when I don't have it. Just possibly hunger, which could still be satisfied by eating more.
I definitely still feel hungry after eating a veggie meal though. I wonder what my body thinks it's missing there. I think it also depends on what I eat. Maybe one that has more protein would fix it. Not sure. It depends.
Hiya Eon
Yes, I have that hunger for something else after eating vegan meals. It's like the body is still searching for something to feed itself. Like you, I don't neeeeed meat to the point where I start sweating or clucking if I haven't got it, but there's definitely an uncomfortable feeling of 'something's missing'.
About the protein. I ate various types of protein. Some are more satiating than others. If I eat a steak or a meat-free quiche, it fills me up for ages because of the eggs and cheese – animal proteins and fats. If I eat a large portion of stir-fried beans with veg and noodles, I'm starving within a couple of hours. It has something to do with ghrelin (the hunger hormone).
Thanks for popping by
cheers
Anj :D
Maybe you aren’t trying to fill a ‘hole’ in your soul with food. Why do you need to feel satisfied and full? What’s wrong with feeling hungry? And it’s interesting that you use the words ‘starving!’ What do you think about the use of that word?
G'morning Danny
Not sure about the hole in my soul (not sure what a soul actually is).
I like to feel satiated after eating. It frees my mind up for other things I have to do. When I'm hungry, my mind can't focus on other important things. The way I eat now suits me (97%). It's not perfect, but it's the best compromise I have found so far.
I use the word 'starving' to get my point across. I don't mean literally. But I think a lack of assimilable nutrients causes a slow starvation to occur.
Gotta go out now. Back later.
cheers
Anj :)
I think meat can be considered addictive, but I don't think it's because our body needs it. Most thing we get "addicted" to isn't healthy for us, and I don't think meat is an exeption. Why it is addictive can be many, from hormonal affects, from the drugs that are injected and fed livestock,
Thanks Fruitarianism
Yes, that's interesting that the animals are pumped full of unnatural chemicals which could cause us to crave them. Personally, I only buy natural, grass-fed, organic animals. I'd say I feel good after eating it.
Do you live only on fruit?
cheers
Anj :)
Fruit, and some leafy greens now and then. Check out my introduction post for more https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@fruitarianism/a-introduction-to-my-raw-vegan-fruitarian-lifestyle-introduceyourself
Cheers!
Great intro post. I just read it. You can certainly write.
I hope your diet keeps you healthy but worry you're missing out on some essential nutrients.
Thanks for commenting.
Be safe
Anj :)
Thanks , appreciate your response and sweet of you to be concerned about me having nutritional deficiencies. Maybe I will save that topic for a future post! I do take varies safety measures and try to do blood work regularly. Thanks for caring.
You're welcome, fruita. It'll be interesting to read your future posts on nutrition, etc. :D
Best wishes
Anj :)
I go back to that time that once I broke up with my ex gf who was a vegetarian was to go and eat a burger with lots of bacon.
The feeling of overwhelming comfort when my taste buds felt the long forgotten aroma and flavor of beef and pork that each bite felt like bliss.
Then every time I prepare a nice and juicy steak the aroma as the fat sizzles and when you put it in your mouth is just nirvana.
It may look like addiction triggers but whatever we would that makes us happy realeases hormones. So it is not just meat that is addictive it's the simple act of enjoying something.
Lol, I remember that sensation well too. My first taste of meat after all those years was actually bliss.
That's a great point. Enjoyment is something we all seek as humans :)
thanks for your comments
cheers
Anj
Interesting post. I find it difficult to imagine what could replace meat. As far as nutrients go, I think most people are pretty nutrient deprived because soil nutrient content has become piss poor, which is likely due to mass production, and with mass production, they normally don't practice crop rotation. Also, what they're feeding the meat nowadays is pretty horrible. If their not corn-fed cows (GMO corn at that), then they're corn syrup fed cows, which is probably even worse.
People do not realise that what we feed the crops and what we feed the animals then comes into the food chain and makes humans ill, it is not a coincidence that a range of illnesses have been massively on the rise as these types of practices have started. Good point :-)
So true. All this fiddling with the natural world can't come to much good in the end.
cheers
Anj
Exactly, we keep believing that we will destroy nature with these changes, but in reality we will only destroy ourselves as a species. We need to start embracing nature and working with it, than against it for the sake of human survival. Nature is stronger than the human race, one day we will learn that.
Hiya George
I agree with that. The further we move away from nature and closer we move towards dependence on the likes of Monsanto the bleaker the outcome for everyone and everything.
Nature seems to know what it's doing. I'd say leave her to do her thing, tread lightly.
cheers
Anj :)
Yes I totally agree with this :-) Monsanto is one of the greatest evils that the world has ever seen, they are responsible for so much destruction in respects to human health and the food chain, it is insanity that they are allowed to legally operate as an organisation and it is an example of how compliant our leaders are with that evil too.
I totally agree, all power to nature, after all, we are but a part of a greater picture :-)
Hiya Thoughts
Thanks. Oh I can't stand the intensive farming methods. Corn syrup!? OMG. That's terrible. Bad for the animals, bad for the land. I agree about the soil nutrients. This isn't as much of a problem in local organic farming where the animals roam around, replenishing the nutrients, fixing the soil.
Thanks for your comments.
Cheers
Anj
That picture on top was great by the way. I've stared at steak and had that exact same impulse, just never acted on it without first cooking it some. You know, if they were aware of the conspiracy against them, life would be like a horror movie to the animals. We would be the heartless vampires, or villains of their life story. What's creepy if you think about it, is the similarities between Mad Cow/CJD/Alzheimers. Maybe in the end, the cows are the ones getting the last laugh, as the prion diseases are creepy, but not too dissimilar. People in general, they biologically crave three things mostly; Salt, sweet, and fat. TBH, I'm envious that i wasn't raised as a vegan. That's a tricky habit to try and pick up, as veggies don't always feel like food, or sate the appetite like meat does.
Aw thanks. I'm just starting to play with an app called Gimp2. It's freesource software. Fun to do :D
Yes, the animals would be in a zombie holocaust or vampire movie for sure -- if they were aware of our intentions. Never thought of it like that.
I remember the mad cow disease scare in the UK. Loads of butchers went out of business. There are lots of similarities, yes. I remember reading (years ago) that CJD can't be killed by the usual autoclaving method for cleansing surgical instruments. Scary stuff.
Alzheimer's: there are some good articles out there linking that to sugar. They're calling Alzheimer's Type 3 Diabetes in some circles.
Being raised from a child as a vegan: there's a law in the process of being passed in Italy that'll make it illegal to feed a child (under a certain age) a vegan diet. Kids have died and become seriously ill. Scary stuff. I'm keeping my eye on the situation.
Yes, I agree. Listening to the body when it signals an imbalance somewhere. A while back, though, my body used to tell me lies. It said I needed to eat Snickers bars. Needed XD
cheers
Anj :)
lol
I wouldn't agree that meat is an addiction, I think society just teaches us from a certain age to consume different things and we either question it or accept it, generally people who question if they should eat meat tend to think more and connect the dots between things, whereas people who do eat meat tend to more accept how things are, or do not question things in the first place.
Hi George
This is what I'm wondering about. The addiction side of things. I always thought I was craving meat because my body genuinely needs the nutrients. Then when @dannyshine raised the matter of addiction, it got me thinking. Hence the post and this debate. It's fascinating.
You make a great point about how we frame things in our minds. As humans, we look for patterns and make connections that may or may not be there.
Thanks for getting involved with the debate.
cheers
Anj
Hi Anj,
It is possible that you may crave certain things from different aspects of nutrition but that would probably be more of a physical than psychological thing, if you want to know what your body is low on probably better to run some nutritional based blood tests for different vitamins and that type of thing, I guess humans have developed as omnivores so it is possible for us to get all that we need from both meat and vegetables, but then again with technology as it is, it may be possible to get it all via vegetables and other artificial forms including things like supplements, its hard to separate the moral aspects and the nutritional, but probably best putting what your body needs first, then go from there :-) I was vegetarian for 25 years, but I broke that to eat fish now as I got really ill, sometimes we have to compromise our morality in order for our health if its needed.
:-)
Hiya George
I agree with you.
Wow -- 25 years! That's quite a stretch. I did 17 years (combo of vegetarian/vegan). I think that's where I'm at now -- struggling a bit with the moral angle (it is horrible to have to kill animals) but putting myself first in that respect. I need my health and my body just doesn't get on with a vegan diet.
Nice addition to the debate.
Cheers
Anj x
Hey :-) I can understand what you are saying with that, to be honest it doesn't sit well with me eating fish again as its not ideally what I would be doing, but I was so screwed nutritionally that I really had to do something, I guess as a balance you could maybe try just being veggie? Theres a lot of good things via dairy and it is possible to get them through more organic and ethical sources, its always a difficult balance with moralistic thinking because you also need to look after yourself too, I would possibly look at ethical and organic options to increase your food choices, is possible to look after yourself but be a decent person too, is just harder work than most other people do, but probably worth it :-)
Hiya
Yes, it is worth it. I already buy my meat, eggs and raw dairy from an organic farm nearby. Like you say, it's the best compromise I can think of for now.
What happened with your health on the veggie diet?
cheers
Anj :)
Thats cool :-) is a good way of doing it, that way the animals are well looked after :-)
I don't think my getting ill was specifically caused by a veggie diet but probably more due to eating very badly, junk food and convenience food was probably the worst culprit, having mental health issues I always struggled to look after myself which then had a knock on effect with things like eating and cooking which meant I went for the junk food options, it did severe damage to my body over a long time and I now have a range of food allergies and a stomach that struggles to process even the most basics of foods, but I am trying to heal, only eat good things now, all veggies and fruit, hopefully over time it well heal :-)
I think sugar is addictive. ^^ Meat, that I'm not really sure. I'm addicted to chicken? Does that count as meat? :)
Hiya Dawn
Yes, deffo sugar's addictive.
hahah addicted to chicken. Yeah that counts as meat XD
cheers
Anj x
Well, it could be...
... but it isn't.
The truth is your body gets addicted to sugar when it comes to sweets, but protein is not addictive.
Vegetarians are addicted to promoting their lifestyle and enforcing it on others :p
Now that's an addiction.
Hiya Max
Thanks for your comments. Yes, sugar is very addictive. And EVIL. It causes so many illnesses.
Yes, protein isn't addictive but I was wondering whether the flavours and chemicals (as mentioned by @dannyshine) could play into it somehow.
Yes, some vegetarians are very passionate about their lifestyle, so much so it can sometimes spill over into extremism. It'd be great if we could all just accept each other's diets as natural diversity.
Thanks for popping by
cheers
Anj x
I'm gonna be honest, after our talk the other day I read "thanks for pooping by"
hahahah You don't know how many times I've had to backspace my 'pooping by' comment. Gonna save it for an article on fibre probably :P
cheers
Anj x