Steemit Betting Scandal - Crowdfund to pay @Walden our internet detective.
Many of you have been following the scandal with @virtualgrowth @thegame and @steembets.
When I created the post detailing my concerns about this I thought it would be a simple case of @virtualgrowth saying sorry and paying up.
@virtualgrowth however maintains that he has done nothing wrong and is being unfairly attacked.
Rather than bore you with the details it's easier to explain that an 'internet detective' has become necessary. We need someone who knows Steemit inside out and can scour the blockchain to provide a forensic analysis of what has been going on.
I asked around and discovered that @Walden is relentless in his fight against fraud, lies and corruption. At present he divides his time between working for Steemcleaners and trolling newbies on Steemitchat. He has agreed to get involved and has already started preliminary investigations.
However this sort of thing is his job. Because of this we've all agreed he needs to be paid. I've suggested $150. I think that's fair for the amount of work he'll have to do.
This is where the Steemit Community comes in.
If you enjoy Steemsports betting and the professional way it is run...
If you want Steemit to be a place where honesty is valued...
If you want to encourage probity and discourage dishonest conduct in the future...
It is very much in your interests to contribute with an upvote and a resteem.
I hope we can get this sorted out as quickly as possible.
I insist, please bore me.
This is my first post.
https://steemit.com/steemsports/@nikflossus/alert-betting-account-run-by-a-trusted-member-of-steemit-found-to-be-a-scam.
After this both vg and I wrote more.
Thanks for the info. No opinions coming from me on this. I just like to stay informed.
same here.
Does the community want an audit report? It's not that hard...
It's not a scandal. I've never said there wasn't a mistake. So I look to fix this. So how shall we fix this.
More like a full investigation with audit. I think that's best don't you? You say it was a mistake. Others feel it was more than a mistake. An audit will show. Then we can deal with the other issues. Let's shine some light on this!
Obviously only a mistake the game is still going on...
Before anything can be proven, emotion must be left out. Only the facts. Generating an opinion before then would be premature. Calling foul before knowing (and I mean KNOWING, not just being convinced) creates nothing but FUD and enemies needlessly.
I understand you feel strongly about your position, but it's important to reserve judgement until all evidence is examined.
tl;dr - Jumping to conclusions (no matter how convinced you may be - you yourself are calling for an investigation meaning you still need more information) is bad.
You're like the only one that doesn't think it was a mistake and why? Because you voted 1% when 50% was needed to win?
The problem is, @nikflossus, that you don't have anything to lose if your accusations turn out to be nothing but FUD spreading.
Whereas @virtualgrowth is a prolific contributor to our community, I can't see much from you at all. So, I have no problem with audits and accountability, but I do have a problem with people making unfounded accusations. What are you willing to lose if your accusations turn out to be groundless? Don't say your "reputation" because you really don't have much of one.
from what I've seen of the arguments presented so far is that @nikflossus tried to game the system with 1% and 10% votes, wanted to get paid out and didn't. He posts clickbait headlines claiming a scandal and then thinks the community will rally to him and upvote his posts so he can pay a so called 'detective' to get to the bottom of the matter. Sounds like a lot of attention seeking at someone else's expense. Personally, I'm not clicking his upvote to reward him.
Agreed
You do realise that because of my intervention many many people have come forward with complaints against @virtualgrowth? And you do realise that I explained why some of my upvotes were at 10%? My votes were made only just after I received a slider bar for the first time. Also I was well within the rules betting at any level until @virtualgrowth changed the rules 2 weeks later. And I still didn't get paid. Nor were many others. And he ignored my concerns until then. Why are you so afraid of an audit? The smaller Steemians want it to happen.
yes, I have seen your claims of many, many complaints.. and that is all I've seen of these alleged complaints (you claiming they exist) and I've seen the evidence of the many 1% and 10% votes you made. Nothing I've seen so far substantiates your claims.
For you to have made that many 1 & 10% votes and not have realized you were voting on a slider bar... well that says a lot about you. Two or three maybe.. not as many as you did.
Just cause others are too polite to call the smell of baloney, doesn't mean I will.
The complaints are in my posts. Please read them properly.
Stop trying to derail. I voted properly and legitimately and used 1% votes for the betting choice rather the post upvote. You know this is standard practice with Steemit betting so why are you pretending otherwise?
What's baloney about wanting the truth?
An investigation will reveal everything.
I repeat, what are you afraid of?
what sort of bullshit question is that .. "what are you afraid of"... I don't need to be afraid of anything to be calling bullshit aka baloney when I see it. If you are so convinced that you are right then put your own funds on the line and pay your so called internet detective instead of crowdfunding.
You think a call for an investigation is 'baloney'?
Read the previous posts properly. A lot of people wanted a investigation. If you don't want one, go elsewhere.
Simple as that...
Why should I have anything to lose? Life doesn't work like that. I gained nothing and spent my time investigating something I thought was dishonest. Why on earth would you not want an investigation when many many people have said they weren't paid for this game? Indeed @virtualgrowth previously said he wanted an investigation.
However if you think doing a lot on Steemit should absolve you from any scrutiny then please say so.
It makes sense to check that these betting initiatives are working correctly....that benefits everyone. But let's be careful about creating impressions around guilt or innocence in advance of the facts. Everyone makes mistakes and everyone has a tendency to get argumentative before the facts are available due to their bias. nikflossus, I support the need to ascertain the facts but I also think virtualgrowth deserves the benefit of doubt....especially as he seems to want to put right any mistakes. We want to encourage new uses of the Steemchain....mistakes will be made. Hopefully the majority will be genuine.
I'm simply trying to get to the truth. I agree that @virtualgrowth deserves the benefit of the doubt from you. But we also need to find out exactly what happened.
The data may well reveal a multitude of errors. Perhaps many people were not paid out correctly and that will be very good to know. You will have done the community and ultimately virtualgrowth a great service in insisting that any problems are revealed and addressed. But you would have to find very specific and unequivocal evidence of foul play to conclude that foul play was the motivation. That's the main point I'm trying to make. So let's fix the problems that exist, use these examples to help refine these initiatives and set a higher standard for execution and move on.
Thanks for your reasonable and measured input. The official excuse was that without telling anyone VG set the threshold for payouts at 50%. In my previous post there were multiple reports that payment was mostly made to those who had larger accounts. Some people said they were paid whether they won or lost. It seems smaller steemians were ignored. A simple audit would prove whether the excuse that those who bet at 50% had not been paid was valid. But apparently this would constitute a witchhunt....
Unfortunately this issue leads on to a much more troubling one. Whilst multiple accounts are allowed, these betting accounts were run as sock puppets. The same poster pretended to make the accounts talk back and forth to give the impression of legitimacy. Alone this is not a big deal. But this is being done by the same person with a large number of accounts, all of them appearing to be independent, all of them growing rapidly and all of them soliciting small amounts of funds from newbies in different ways.
A further concern is that after talking back and forth for a while, it became apparent to me that this poster was not interacting with me on a normal level. He would happily say whatever he needed to, to get out of trouble.
If you don't think this spells trouble in the future for Steemit then I'm surprised.
I am attempting to speak from a set of guiding principals I believe in because I've been wrong about things in my life. Let me say this...you may be correct about your concerns...for me, that only informs the decision to investigate thoroughly. With respect, your conclusions are meaningless to me because you are a victim here and far from objective. Voicing your suspicions so vocally in advance of a forensic examination of the blockchain is premature and counterproductive in my opinion. Don't take that in the wrong way, I do not mean it as an attack, just an observation from the point of view of how we might do things better in the future. If virtualgrowth is running sock puppets and games with the intention of conning votes from people and withholding reward funds, then we must put a stop to it.
In the future, perhaps initiatives and the scripts that run them should be put through an open peer review process to minimise ambiguity or bugs or whatever...before they are launched. Reputation would obviously be greater for those that went through that kind of process.
Let's see what the data says, then an informed consensus can be reached. If the Steemit community can accept that in an innovative environment, we are going to continually run into issues....no I don't think that spells trouble....I think that is the means of making this platform far stronger. What makes a problem from which we can learn acceptable is the way we choose to deal with it. For instance, those who are harmed, we do everything reasonable to help them out or compensate them. Hopefully the problems will be caught fast and dealt with faster and make future problems more difficult.
Well I admire your optimism on this. And I told you what I know only because I don't expect anyone else to bother with an investigation now. Regarding sock puppets, most people won't be able connect the dots.
You see a Nietzchian dynamic to Steemit facing new problems? Maybe, but I feel there's a fundamental misunderstanding of Anarchism and how it could work running through the thinking on this platform. I do hope I'm wrong.
Hi @nikflossus - I'm thankful everything is on the blockchain like breadcrumbs to follow. Hopefully everything is on the up and up and all is well in Steemlandia. If there are shady goings-on then I'm sure the Steemit community will respond. What happens if they are found legit? I like to see both sides of the coin when possible. Thanks!
Well it's already been ascertained that not everyone was paid. We need to find out whether this was a mistake or whether it was purposeful negligence. After that there are a few other issues to resolve. However it wouldn't be fair for me to go into them here.
It was a mistake. End of story. Next: work out a forward moving solution.
I had Meningitis last year and don't have the time or energy for this.
I'm truly sorry you were ill. Please stop spamming though. It needs to happen to put everyone's mind at rest.
Everyone's?
Don't bother raising $150 for an investigation
Will work with the community to offer a simple solution.
I think the community want to know what went on, whether you want an investigation or not.
Okay okay....let's stop calling foul for the sake of calling foul. This is not needed. If he's willing to work with you and you're still calling foul, the issue becomes a pointless witch hunt for the sake of a witch hunt.
I think you can see that I did my best to make this post as neutral as possible. As my threads have shown, a lot of people were not paid and the explanation given does not make sense for all of these cases. Previously it was agreed that an audit was the best way to resolve this. An audit would resolve the issue of whether @virtualgrowth's explanation for what happened makes sense. I can see no reason for people to get angry or defensive about an investigation into statistics. That's really all this is...
I have to say, I don't think you did make it as neutral as possible. You did include a lot of facts - so kudos for that, but it's very obvious that you're upset. You're not just presenting an issue that you think needs addressing, you've including a lot of fingerpointing at the individual you believe is responsible. You're DEMANDING an investigation the same as a disgruntled customer DEMANDS a refund.
The person your finger at is tell you - point blank - that he is willing to work with you and you're declining that offer because it's not the action you want taken. That's called being a director - you're directing those who are talking to you into doing something specific to your interests.
Keep in mind I'm not choosing sides. Just stating how this comes across.
I'm not upset, I'm just defending myself against quite harsh criticism.
If you look at my previous threads you'll see there was a lot of community support for an audit. I still think there is from the smaller and newer Steemians who didn't get paid. The fact that a few others are vocally against the idea of the truth being sought doesn't surprise me.
Sadly the 'fingerpointing' is mostly stating facts that have already been established.
I'm surprised some people seem to be treating this as an issue of who has been here longer, who has 'done' more for Steemit. When I have a lot of support from Steemians who haven't been paid that's a non argument for me.
So I'll seek and audit, because it is important. And without it the betting scene will become more and more 'wild'.
Will you accept the outcome of an audit should it rule against your favor?
Well it wouldn't be against my favour. I'd be happy if @virtualgrowth's explanation for what went on held water. It would restore a little bit of my faith in Steemit and I would tell him I was sorry I doubted him on this issue though I'd still ask that he were careful with details when setting up his future games.
As you can probably tell I'm someone who doesn't like injustice very much. As an example I once placed a policeman under citizens arrest. He was bullying someone. It got messy... ;)
I can't reply to other other comment - already nested too deep.
That's what I'm talking about - it seems you've already labeled this as an injustice, and I think that's where a lot of the misconception and criticism is coming from. This is where my comment about reserving judgement comes in.
You have to remember that I know a lot more about what went on than the third parties commenting. I'm certain of some things, fairly sure about a lot of things and have suspicions about a few more.
With the information I have this is a valid position for me to hold. Saying I should disregard what I've found out is to ask me to throw occams razor out of the window.
Sadly I see the future of Steemit as going more towards this passivity. There seems to be great merit attached to 'not making a judgement'.
If we don't struggle to make accurate judgements and act on them, Steemit will degrade into clickbait and scams.
People think they're getting enlightened anarchism and what they're really getting is chaos.
I didn't say don't be accurate. I didn't say be passive. I said don't pass judgement until facts can be examined. I know you say you're trying to remain neutral, but I think many of us can agree that we still hear the grinder sharpening the pitchfork.
In any regard, I must move on. I hope it works out.
At what point did you think I hadn't examined facts?
I don't mean you. I mean peer review - you know, that investigation that you're demanding. But like I said, I'm going to step away from this topic, as I'm not one of those people who can help with an investigation.
Fair enough. And I don't know where you're getting 'demanding' from. I thought the little guys wanted it.
You are dragging people's names through the mud to try and gain fame.
If I could reach you physically this issue would be over in a matter of minutes and you would have learned your lesson for spreading FUD.
Here's what you said about the situation on my previous post:
the.masses49 · 3 days ago
And now he wants to be a witness, if people don't pay attention what little there is left of Steemit will be pissed away...
Thanks for pointing this out, he has several accounts and from what I can tell for no good reason. If separate accounts are needed then why not disclose they are all @virtualgroth accounts ?
I had noticed discrepancies because I have a curation trail, sometimes some would be paid and others not, never all like it should have been. Many times none were paid but I didn't investigate to see if my vote in fact lost, I just quit playing...
Yeah, people need to pay attention for sure...
Thanks @nikflossus
You are an idgit, anyone can use this account, it's posting key is public
I didn't know that. Are you scared to use your real acccount?
For legal reasons... physical harm insinuation from an anon account yes... It isn't fear, it's intelligence.
People like you weren't beat enough in your teens, I can fix that no problem.
You wouldn't stand a chance. And Nova Scotia is too far away sadly.
Nova Scotia?
Bit of interesting trivia for this discussion. Just out of curiousity, I tested the 'public' of @the.masses posting key. It doesn't work.