Steemit Feature Request: We need to have a "Dislike" button separate from "Flags" for better online interactions (According to Game design Wisdom)

in #steemit6 years ago (edited)

I've repeatedly raised my voice against any flag used on occasions where Non-Aggression Principle has been kept intact. As my friend @tibra very accurately said "Some people here treat this like 4chan or reddit: ``I like apples you like oranges." Steemit is already a way better version of Reddit and Blogger combined. But it is greatly different from those platforms due to mechanics involved. STEEM eco-system falls more in line with an MMO-RPG than a traditional social media. Here is another quote from @tibra

I told Ned: whenever anybody whose time is valuable and who'd be an asset to the community is shown this site, almost always what happens is they browse for a few minutes on their phone, and ask me why I suggested what I suggested.

How Reddit and Steemit does curation Differently


Reddit allows 1 vote per person and expect people to vote in a way that would make the most useful content appear on the top. There are no intrinsic rewards involved. You get nothing for voting. STEEM on the other hand gives curation rewards. The incentive is that if you upvote content that other people would also find important; then you'd get the intrinsic rewards of curation. So the idea is to incentive people to support more valuable content to create a positive feedback loop where good content receive more and more votes. Everybody is happy when there are rewards.

Flags remove these rewards. They makes the whole experience less pleasant. Sometimes a minor change on the paper can have massive consequences in a system and I'm not even talking about Chaos Theory and The Butterfly effect. Game designing is a great place where human psychology, human interaction and all sorts of human positivity in the world can com together. Steemit Inc can learn a lot from these Creators/ publishers of multiplayer games.

Making a small change


We all have used the equivalents of the dislike button at so many places as a way of saying we dislike something. But when financials are involved, saying you don't like/agree with something has a much larger effect. The flags are actually called downvotes in the blockchain level. Since rewards are allocated based on votes, one ca say that a downvote is a way of saying "All you upvoters were voting for the wrong stuff/ voting at wrong amounts. Let me fix that for you." Unless this is done on a clearly agreeable (objective) standard such as NAP, these downvotes can lead to time/resource wasting scenarios like flag wars.

Personally I've kept my flags reserved for spammers, plagiarists etc. That meant the default path for me at the face of content I don't like (Eg: Commie BS, Flat-Earth, General stupidity, badmouthing Hideo Kojima) was to just ignore them. there was no way I could simply express my opinion of dislike without messing with another persons potential rewards while negating the effects of the votes of those who upvoted the content. just imagine what would YouTube videos look like if there was only a net likes bar instead of showing Likes and Dislikes separately. Well that's steemit.

A Healthy way to communicate disagreement without comment


Imagine you had to fill up a small text box every time you upvote content describing why you are upvoting that content. That would be so annoying. The current nice and civil way to show disagreement is like that. It's too much of a pain to comment at all times. Flags are too aggressive. As shown in the above World of Warcraft scenario, a small change can completely shift the perception and improve the online experience of a certain product. So why not add a button which says "Dislike" or show a thumbs down icon. The effect of this icon can be implemented in different ways.

#1 No Financial Effect


This should be the easiest to implement. The dislike has zero effect on payout and one could show disagreement with no hard feelings involved. This should remove the bitter parts of flagging and make the community more pleasant.

#2 Downvote locked at a Fixed Percentage


When using steemit the smallest upvote/downvote (flag) percentage we are using is 1% So make the dislike have the effect of a downvote fixed at 1% and we are bringing the stake based voting into the mix. I think it is a good idea to add some stake based weight as VESTS(SP) are a primary part of the blockchain. People who invest more should have a bigger effect. That's free markets. But some might say that this isn't perfect.

#3 Downvote locked at a Fixed Percentage with an additional cap


Even I'm considered minnow by steemit standards. My 1% downvote won't be even worth a cent. But what about a Whale with few hundred dollars worth upvote? The entire point of the "Dislike"button was to keep the financial effects contained. For a minnow earning few bucks, a simple 1% from a whale could wipe out all earnings. We also have to consider comments which gain smaller votes.

Hence the need to cap the max effect of the "Dislike". I think 10 cents could be a good amount. But that would take some calculations. We could simplify it to something like 100% flag from a 1-2 MVESTS account (Currently it'costs 490.314 STEEM per MVEST).

I really hop this idea or something similar would get implemented to make the UX better for us all. Less isn't always more. A bigger vocabulary allows better communication. In a similar fashion, a wider range of actions to respond to posts will lead to better and less resource wasting interactions. So resteem and make the idea spread :-)

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Yes. It's doubly weighted. You can't dislike someone's post without robbing them of money, and you also can't dislike a post without essentially taking money from yourself or the things you like. We should all, as consumers, have the ability to take something down from the trending list without taking the rewards away from the author. Just because I think something is crappy content, doesn't mean it's spam or that the author should have money taken away.

A "Dislike" button can communicate that a certain use thinks your content is crap without financial harm (or minimal/symbolic financial harm) and create a UX that consider flags to be something reserved for clear violations of NAP like plagiarism, spam, fraud etc.

I noticed that price in steem sbd takes time to change relative to coinmarketcap . When steem and sbd went above 2.5 a day ago , the rewards did not increase on older post for some hours . I saw some delay . Is there any delay , if yes then how much delay ?

It's actually the 3.5 day median price that is used based on the feed by Witnesses. Check https://www.steemnow.com for more info. click the top right corner for the chart.

I think some people don't understand the difference between "I disagree" and "this sucks." Flagging something just because you disagree with it is ridiculous. It's like punishing people for expressing an opposing opinion.

Good post, thank you. :)

You are welcome!

Agree with you on the dislike button thing!! I also think there should be something that let's you make a "lightweight comment" or something like that, because sometimes I just want to say "wow, nice post", but if I do that I look like a spammer that only cares about getting an upvote.

Also, I completely agree with you on the limiting downvotes thing, I understand that spammers need to be dealt with, but when someone like berniesanders goes around flagging shit because they don't like it, it is too much. This is how berniesanders responded to a post saying he at the very least should be more specific to what he flags:

2018-04-03_003140.jpg
(sorry, barely readable because that guy's reputation is so low(well deserved))
Yep, he admitted he will just flag stuff he doesn't like.

sometimes I just want to say "wow, nice post"

The platform was designed in a way where "wow, nice post" is said via weighted upvotes. It saves time and it is more efficient. Bernie and his 50+ sock puppet accounts are one of the worst things on STEEM blockchain. It seems that the guy was a miner. PoW Mining is probably the single biggest flaw of STEEM blockchain. I talked about this in length here: https://steemit.com/news/@vimukthi/the-initial-token-distribution-problem-of-steem-and-dan-talking-about-steem-2-0-on-eos-telegram-q-and-a

At least Grumpycat+Madpuppy seems to have paid for their stake. Transisto payed for his stake and he tried to pull off BS/Grumpy stunts and sort of toned things down a little. Adding a "Dislike"button to show disagreements will make it evident that those who flag without a breach of NAP are just fascist thought police punks. I mean some idiot-savant who designed the UI/UX put "Disagreement on rewards" at the top of reasons to flag. There should have been a separate function to show disagreements and that's why I'm finally proposing this solution.

Having a down vote tab that takes money away from someone making a comment will still leave this site with mostly kiss butt comments. To have a viable open discussion of reverse opinions/engagement has to come without the threat of losing money. The flagging system should only be used for abuse that deserves it but upvoting and downvoting should be used to encourage the free flow of conversation without monetary punishment.

Most kiss butt comments are just spam anyways. Those are mostly ignored or flagged. Personally I slightly favor the 3rd option I suggested. you seem to prefer the 1st option where "Dislike" has zero financial effect. I think the community should come to a consensus on which version to implement. Either way it would make the experience on the platform much better.

Thanks for the comments.

That and get rid of flags altogether, methinks :)

Getting rid of flags would mean we can't effectively combat scams, fraud, plagiarism etc. We could use some distributed consensus to get rid of these problems without flags. But that would be too inefficient. The easy way is to say flags are reserved for NAP violations and flagging without a breach of NAP is a Flagging abuse.

There might be some complex solutions for this problem. I'm not a dev and "Dislike" button is a step in the right direction. Personally I think getting rid of flags can be a dangerous thing without involving some AI/Machine learning and other complicated tech+ distributed consensus to fight real abuse.

Another problem is that curating doesnt just incentivize people to push the best content to the top; the current curation reward system motivates people to quickly bet on what they think will be popular, by bandwagoning after they see critical mass instead of actually reading the post - - often they just participate in the snowball effect and hope others will too. It keeps the largest accounts in top circulation.

Most of the kind of content you mention belong to people who already have high value self-upvotes or people who are on auto-vote lists of other whales. To earn significant curation, one has to vote before other big votes come in. Some people just blindly vote popular accounts but it's not very effective strategy. The upcoming Hivemind feature should solve this problem to some extent.

https://github.com/steemit/hivemind

Flags are necessary to stop spammers , but i agree dislike button should be added too .

Let's just hope that the devs would be smart enough to add the feature.

Yeah , i haven't seen any update lately .

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