All upside: the cost of community benefits

in #steemit6 years ago

Plagiarism, Spam, begging for votes, link dropping blah, blah, blah...

The problem with handling these things is they always have to be handled after they happen but, they are incentivized before they happen. The next issue is that the handling of these things is a community action which means someone must first recognise and then act to stop these behaviours and that incurs a cost of time, VP, effort to those handling. After that, anything earned by these accounts up until the point the activity is stopped, is kept.

There is no cost to doing this before they happen. The only cost is future earnings and when the ecosystem is already under strain, people are more incentivized to paste trash than take a risk posting something quality for nothing. But investing without guarantee, that is business. And here, the investment is time and effort, not financial outlay.

People talk about the freedom of action here and how social media should be free yet, in a community, there are costs. Part of the reason that most people in a real-world community act well is because there are social costs to not acting well, future costs but, that future cost is potentially forever as people can't change bodies. There are also benefits to being part of the community.

Con artists however generally move around a lot so they can keep running the same scams without paying the social costs since they are never actually a part of the long-term structure of the community. Here, people just get a new account once their con has been burned, they don't need to move house and Steemit will even fund their next startup.

This is the catch-22 problem isn't it? A cost can't be introduced because it will decrease interest levels in users but, without a cost, there is only upside to behaving badly. People want to have the best of both worlds but there is an incompatibility between the two. People want to protect the new accounts from costs so they can grow but in doing so means the system is getting swamped by those that only care for profit.

If you look at the engagement rates on Steemit, they are quite poor considering the numbers of users and comments per post etc but, the numbers do not tell the whole truth. For example, there is one person who has 7829 accounts created in the last 10 months spamming. There are parked accounts, and alt accounts that are barely used. There are farming bots and trails and there are the many stat auto-posters spamming content every few minutes. All of this (and many more things) destroys the accuracy of the engagement statistics.

Also, this is what all new users have to compete with for their little piece of the blockchain. A new user isn't in competition with me who is already established, they are up against the Spam accounts that are trying to mimic real users so they can get rewards. Clearing away spam goes a long, long way to making space for the real startup users to get established.

I use the word startup a fair bit these days because I think it is fitting for this environment on a few levels. The platform itself is in its infancy and the concept of the platform is even younger. Both need a lot of kinks worked out to be effective and go beyond startup phase.

But, new users are also startup entrepreneurs if they want a return on their posts. Anyone can post here without a return if they want, there is absolutely nothing stopping them. However, if one wants to realise some financial value, that is going to change their approach. It is going to come with costs and time is only one of them.

This is a social media and it requires being social but, those who are actually attempting to engage are being drowned out. What are they willing to pay to clear out some of their competition? Well, if we look at the people using bidbots, a lot. However, why not instead of paying to rise above the spam, pay to clear out some of the spam?

In the real world there is a cost to sending junk mail through the post but this changed with the internet and spam emails. They could target globally for almost free. This created a whole new industry, spam filters, censorship. But, if there was a cost to send, they would be much more careful with their campaigning and would target much more accurately making it, no longer spam but advertising.

By adding a cost to post? Again, we run into the same problem don't we? adding a cost to adjust community behaviours is seen as oppressive to those trying to earn yet, will also oppress those looking to game the system and, there are many more gaming than engaging. Any costs the user must pay are shot down yet, there are zero social costs to gaming the system. Zero. Only upside.

The upside might not be large to act badly from the outset but, it is large enough that people are willing to engage in it heavily and with volume, some are making a lot from it. This in turn drives the chance to be seen for others down and after being swamped, they are going to disengage and either try behaving poorly instead or just leave the platform.

No solution? Perhaps there is no solution to the problem but discovery has always been an issue here which is why I have kept pushing for community interaction and nodes to be built that can support a wide range of willing to work accounts. Nodes don't just support though, they attract.

New accounts shouldn't be concerned about being discovered as that is very unlikely in the current spam fest and bidbot hell. What they should be concerned with is getting discovered and this means doing the work to engage with the community. There is a cost to this that few want to pay and that is it isn't always comfortable work, it isn't always fun and much of it is unrewarded and may go unrewarded for a very long time or, forever. Nothing here is certain.

People want the poor behaviours taken care of but, not if it costs them something to take care of it. I do understand this however, what that does is leave the job up to a smaller percentage of users each day who don't have the eyes or the ears to keep up with the 10,000 new accounts each day and all the potential spammers within.

Yes, onboarding should outline what is good and poor behaviours better but again, people see this as authoritarian as do what you want is in play. Everyone can 'do what they want here' but if what one wants is to also earn, that is going to require certain behaviours which may mean, no longer being able to do what one wants.

A community is not a place of freedom, it is a place of responsibility and responsibility by definition is a constraint on freedom. I don't have solutions to all of the issues facing Steemit but expecting others in a decentralized and financially incentivized environment to act in the best interest of the community is unlikely to help me build what this place could be. So, it is going to take more thinking, more discussion and a hell of a lot more work before it is functioning as a constructive community where individuals can flourish.

Work is a down payment on the future and, it has a cost. You want upside? There are going to be downsides too. Expecting that only others should pay them is not how strong communities are built. This platform is not a charity, it is an economic business model that ties effort to reward. It doesn't mean all effort is rewarded directly though. Instead of thinking about what costs are unsuitable to put on the community, perhaps we should look at what costs are suitable to be a part of it and enjoy the benefits.

Taraz
[ a steemit original ]

I have a randomly busy day ahead so I may miss comments until tonight.

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Dear @tarazkp, I have tried to explain the things you outline here both in comments and in a separate post (that might have been too theoretical though). I would like to stress again some particular points you make:

Part of the reason that most people in a real-world community act well is because there are social costs to not acting well, future costs but, that future cost is potentially forever as people can't change bodies.

That is something that is very important to understand for all those caring for this platform. I got in an argument with @smooth and with @valued-customer because I advocated enforcing a "1 person - 1 steemit account" policy precisely in order to internalize the cost of irresponsible, anti-social behaviour.

Con artists however generally move around a lot so they can keep running the same scams without paying the social costs since they are never actually a part of the long-term structure of the community.

There is NO freedom without social responsibility. This is something @valued-customer seemed incapable of comprehending. He could not see that his freedom to say things that in the real world gothim beaten up meant that others were also free to spam or worse, slander, lie and make accusations that they would not need to prove, all under the veil of anonymity

You've put it best when you wrote:

A community is not a place of freedom, it is a place of responsibility and responsibility by definition is a constraint on freedom.

I deeply believe that "the market" does NOT have a solution to this. Costs, payments, to post or to clean, downvoting the con artists and "chbartists" are NO solution.

This is a fundamental position backed by scientific research in sociology that I refer to in "Steemit and the Fractal Society"

The libertarian and anarcho-capitalist atmosphere around here (especially among the orcas and whales) tends to blind some people to that reality.

The solution shall come by exercising the social dimension of the human nature, NOT the economic dimension.

Here is a post I wrote some time ago about this :
https://steemit.com/busy/@sorin.cristescu/sovereign-identity-on-blockchain

Ok so the solution to making Steemit a better place is...?

Strong link between real-life identity and steemit identity.

This way you disincentivize anti-social behaviour. Bad reputation can "spill out" on your real life person and as @tarazkp puts it "you can't change bodies". Hence if you have an ounce of brain you avoid being a d*ck on Steemit

At the same time good behaviour is incentivized, for the same reason: whatever great piece you write here on Steemit people can find it when they Google your name

This is the basis for pro-social behaviour, for community building:

  • you incentivize positive behaviour
  • you disincentivize negative behaviour

This boils down to a kind of KYC. It doesn't need to be extremely intrusive like for opening a bank account or such, but a little KYC effort could go a long way

Good idea. This would also prevent the following nightmare scenario that's occurred to me: as it stands, it's perfectly possible for some sick pervert to actually take advantage of the fact that they're anonymous and invisible, and sneak some child pornography onto the block-chain.... imagine the fall-out if (when?) that's discovered.

This already happened, it's called Facebook and Google. See recent fiasco for a portion of the downside.

Remember when you could be anonymous on Google, and then Facebook made you use your real name, and then Google quickly followed.

The whole shine to Crypto is that people can be themselves via Anonymity. What you're trying to eliminate, is what makes the internet and crypto special, the ability to actually say what you're thinking, for real, instead of all the PC nice-nice bologna everyone on their Ambiens and Zolofts need to hear to keep thinking they live in LaLa land.

Evil is worst when its hidden. Let it out in the open and it becomes so absurd, it's easily dismissed. The KKK isn't scary, they run around in white sheets like children at Halloween. But what if there was a secret society that met in private, and thought up evil schemes (wait, we have those, they're called TBTF banks!), now THAT would be TRULY scary. But if you swallow a pill and think nice-nice all the time, you basically support those scary secret entities.

But yeah, we agree everyone would seem nicer if their name were attached to everything they did. Be we already have that in the OTHER 99% of life, including the most popular social networks. But if the goal is to just be FB, then sure, make everyone give their name, passport, and a short video proof that says they are who they say they are.

Crypto makes us laugh, as it grows, it loses more and more of the appeal it first had, frequently at the hands of do-gooders.

You are confusing two different things. I'm not trying to eliminate the ability to "say what you are thinking".

If what you are thinking is physically harming someone or prodding others to do so then I would like to avoid you saying it on Steemit.

Whether I'm in favour or against you saying it someplace else is beyond the point.

Saying non-PC things while anonymous is no courage, is cowardice. If you think non-PC things you should take responsibility and consider whether saying them out loud under your own identity is a good thing or not.

If you nevertheless you want to say it anonymously, then steemit is NOT the place to do so because of the fact that, as @dan says in this post "it distributes public money"

Well said. Market 'freedoms' only tend to empower those with cash, while dis-empowering those with none. The problem is that steemit (I think) is run by hard-line capitalists and it empowers capitalists (some of whom call themselves anarchists, I just call them capitalists) and so it's these that have the most visibility.

Bit of a catch 22 situation!

I also agree with the linking of online and offline identities.

I'll give those posts a read, nice comment!

The good thing about this blockchain is that not much prevents someone from implementing "a completely different steemit" on the same blockchain. Call it "steemit social" (as opposed to the current "steemit cash").

It's just that until now, where there has been available capital there has been no willingness to do so. And where willingness, no available capital.

The prosperity of Singapour owes almost everything to one good man, the late Lee Kwan Yew. The Messiah of Singapour. We need such a guy to save Steemit. Shouldn't be that complicated

On that note - I think @steembasic income is a promising initiative. Amongst many others.

I didn't know that about Singapore!

Lots to think about here! Cheers!

I will come back later to this. My daughter just got home :)

People just don't go for it as they think that the anonymity hides them from the authorities which is apparently of utmost importance to some people. I have a feeling that for most, it is because there is a large discrepancy between online persona and the reality. Here, they get to live a fantasy and it seems to bring out the worst desires in many people.

They can do that in other "social" networks and ruin those. I would prefer that Steemit lives up to the vision of a strong community. And as you justly point out, you can't build a community without responsibility, without accepting some limitations to freedom.

This comment is similar to thinking the 2nd Amendment is about preventing break-ins to your house by an armed evil assailant. The 2nd Amendment exists to prevent VERY rare occurrences of dictatorship.
so sure, you can claim that we are all good people and citizens, so why do we need Anonymity? But this ignores the 1% of the time when Anonymity is highly valued, like when the police state emerges. It is in THOSE instances where you wish the citizens had their weapons and their abilities to communicate without being on confiscation lists (gun licenses) and snooped.

American forefathers lived thru such a time, and therefore respected the right to be private.
Innocent until PROVEN guilty, not the other way around.

This post is incredible, mate. I usually like your stuff, but you've absolutely nailed it here.
I think perhaps it's time to leverage the 7 day wait for payout.
If the con man can't leave the community for 7 days, and has to have a good rep to avoid leaving naked, he's going to be on his best behaviour :)
I have an idea I'll be posting about later tonight, also, no doubt triggered by Tim's post earlier today.

Thanks :)

It is going to run into the same problems all of the time isn't it. No limitation but, limitation is required.

If the con man can't leave the community for 7 days, and has to have a good rep to avoid leaving naked, he's going to be on his best behaviour :)

Tying powerdown to rep... ;) bidbots are the problem her but, that comes at a cost in itself.

I have an idea I'll be posting about later tonight, also, no doubt triggered by Tim's post earlier today.

Looking forward to it. No matter the discussions, at some point a few experiments need to happen.

Nice post.

By community interaction nodes, do you mean things like the curation leagues and sndbox? Interacting in these is by far the best way of moving steemit forwards.

BTW - I asked @abh12345 this question earlier: who are steeminc? Who is it exactly who we have to appeal to in order to get system-level changes coded in? Discussion is good, but who's ear are we actually after?

Some good comments below... I especially agree with the idea of linking accounts to offline identity....

I'm glad @tarazkp has given you the same answer :D

I mean individual users who build communities around them. This can be done in several ways through projects or like I try, just creating a place where discussions can happen openly. It needs many approaches.

Steem Inc are the management/development team, @ned is the CEO. The issue is that in a decentalized system, the community takes precedence but we seem incapable of healthy self-governance.

Very few here will go for attachment to an offline identity as they are fiercely protective of anonymity.

I'm trying, and engagement was good last week :)

Bloody hippy.

I thank you! :D

You're welcome... +1 to engagement.

I have seen similar on 1 year old posts ;)

A. Good response - I agree!
B. I know @ned but who are the rest? And I know @andrarchy and @exyle are 'well in the mix' - but who has the rights to 'push the button' which, for example, might bring back n2 rewards?
C. I'd rather not wait 'til a Daily Mail journalist uncovers the child porn lurking on the steem blockchain, put there by an anonymous, mostly invisible account to demonstrate the downsides of anonymity.

I have personally not found spamming to be a huge problem in the comments. It takes a few seconds of my time to flag the "nice posts" or other spam. The other spam is usually fishing scams that very often come flagged already with some bot following the scammers warning everyone. (Come to think of it, I should upvote the warning and flagging bots.)

By the way, the spamming problem could partly be solved by fostering a culture of keeping one's garden clean. Malicious bots and bot-like behavior should not be tolerated by anyone in their comment sections. @gamer00 and I have been in the habit of flagging such comments since early January. @gamer00 has written a standard reply he refers to those whose behavior is spambot-like and who turn out to be humans and complain about the flags afterwards.

I found that steemplus also helps. The classification they give to users who comment with 'Human' or 'Spammer' is pretty accurate.

For example when I checked comments below this interesting post about spam steemplus immediately pointed out some spam comments so I could flag them in a couple of seconds. Funny how these spammer spam on a post about spam :-)

Very interesting. I've got to look into that.

It seems that the spammers played a useful role this time around. :)

I its not too much of a problem for me either which is why most comments I get are from non spammers and get seen.

But, consider someone who doesn't have SP, they can't flag and if they do, there is likely to be retaliation anyway. It is the same with spam posts which I rarely see because they don't appear in my feed but, a new user has to compete with them too and there are a lot if you check new. I did a personal test a few weeks back and took a selection of about 20 posts in new and found 4 or 5 were plagiarised some were bots and some were very low quality. A new real user has to be found in that.

But, consider someone who doesn't have SP, they can't flag and if they do, there is likely to be retaliation anyway. It is the same with spam posts which I rarely see because they don't appear in my feed but, a new user has to compete with them too and there are a lot if you check new. I did a personal test a few weeks back and took a selection of about 20 posts in new and found 4 or 5 were plagiarised some were bots and some were very low quality. A new real user has to be found in that.

I think there is no choice for a beginner but to become a quality commenter on established blogs first. That is simply the best way. Becoming a regular who adds value to the comment section of an established blog is the best way. No matter how good you are, New is worthless. I have never even taken the time to properly read that section. It's too much for me to even skim through the first dozen or so posts.

I think there is no choice for a beginner but to become a quality commenter on established blogs first.

I agree. If many want a date, they can't all be wallflowers. And new is horrible. I have spent some time lately trying to go through some intro posts just to bump them a little. Lots of nonsense in there too.

That's a good point. My of us newcomers have to fear retaliation. I've come across a couple of articles who had the new transparency bot on them. I looked at the posters history and on one's where their post didn't seem reasonable for the amount of money they were getting I started talking to them one on one in as positive light as I could. If they responded back to me whether trying to justify what they were doing or were just using the excuse that whales get away with it so why shouldn't I and would engage more on the subject followed by a upvote to them. So far there's been no angry retaliatory or just plain f off's, just conversations of concern, consideration and awareness. Maybe positive feedback of concern instead of negative insults and infighting we seen on some of this post is what is needed. Explaining how we would all like exposure and it should be up to you or me to determine what we would like to do to gain that exposure is okay. Don't fault them for using the bots find a way to say I don't blame you but a little consideration would go a long way. Work your conversation around that.

Excellent post by the way.

  1. Plagiarism
    "I'll be Baaaach"
    download (1).jpg
  1. Spam
    "I'll be Baaaaach"
    "I am Baaaach"
    "Right Bach at yah!"
    "You better not come Bach!"

  2. begging for votes
    28guj5.jpg

  3. link dropping
    Bach for more

I'm terribly sorry... just my mood suddenly compelled me to...
giphy (1).gif

Lol, i am going to upvote this based on effort :)

One of the best posts about something I've been thinking about a lot. I've reported a lot of plagiarists to steemcleaners, but I also noticed how much time & effort that costs me and the platform, and it finding so many serial-plagiarists only made me grow more depressed about the possible future on steem. People stealing things and presenting them as their own, not my favorite pastime.

But you're right, these costs are there, and I hope many people with more insight and knowledge about these things read this post, and perhaps together we can find a way to keep the inclusivity of steem, but also make it much more difficult for plagiarists and spammers.

but I also noticed how much time & effort that costs me and the platform, and it finding so many serial-plagiarists only made me grow more depressed about the possible future on steem.

It is painful to not only see it but search for it also.

perhaps together we can find a way to keep the inclusivity of steem, but also make it much more difficult for plagiarists and spammers.

This is the goal. No one is trying to kill the platform through their suggestions but, it will take lots of ideas and trial and error to distil a decent solution.

Is there a post somewhere that explains the best way to deal with plagiarists? I tend to be someone that reads and comments more than she posts. I love reading through posts and engaging with the author. I often come across plagiarists, but I am not sure the best thing to do. On a few occasions, I have pointed out the original article in a comment and asked them to change it, but other than that, as a relatively newbie (I have an account for a while, but I have only been active for about a month), I have no idea the best procedure, especially when I see comments and upvotes on plagiarized material. Thank you!

I would say freedom comes with responsibility. There is no "absolute" freedom to fly, turn into an apple, go to another universe. Freedom of will is always operating within limits, and part of those limits is to recognize the responsibility of how to live in those limits. Be responsible to not walk off a cliff. Other responsibilities include the social dimension of existing with others. If we want to be free and live in harmony with others, that requires responsibility.

If we want to be free and live in harmony with others, that requires responsibility.

They are inextricably tied together for an animal that's core competitive advantage is cooperation with a group to tackle problems much larger than any individual within can manage alone. The harmony is the issue.

An idea would be to have a separate pool for flagging. If flagging would not consume from the voting power, more people would be encourage to down-vote the spammers. And rewards for low reputation accounts should also be diminished. A different idea would be to remove SP from the spamming accounts. This will make the steem a completely different world! 😂😂

A different idea would be to remove SP from the spamming accounts. This will make the steem a completely different world!

I have mentioned burning them from time to time in hardforks. Obviously some issues with that but... ;)

I’ve always noticed more times than not here finding a community that fits you and your content will help you more than just tossing money at the bidbots, going around spamming, or whatever nonsense people get themselves into.

Hardest part for me is finding that place. I’ve tried both open and closed communities in the past from just places that are on Steemit to full blown they got a discord and all of that kind of communities.

I often times end up leaving becomes ones I become invested in my time I start noticing just how many people are leeching for the benefits but really don’t give a dam for that community. These people really are no that hard to find and yet communities just let them walk on in even in “closed” places where you have to be accepted in.

You go out to their blog and when you scroll to the bottom what do you see? 5 or more banners for all the communities they are in. A bunch of community bots up voting there blog for a couple of cents. Zero or next to zero engagement with comments. They are never in discord channel for that community and never once said “hi.” Which makes you wonder why even more so for small communities would they allow such types of people in? Far too many places seem focused on quantity over quality which I just find strange. Even when they act like they are not, they don’t want remove or kick people for such behavior either.

Which leads me back to just focusing on a few places to engage with on Steemit itself, and more or less feeling like a lone wolf again. I still think focusing on community is the best way to rise above all the spam. It’s just disappointing when it seem to be welcomed in with open arms of low effort.

I've noticed that quite a bit. I don't belong to any chat on steemit/discord, between my old blog and this one I can hardly keep up now...I can just see myself getting lost for hours on another social outlet (lol)....after being on here for a bit I've notice that most who have joined these social clubs just set automatic upvotes to each other or like you say just up vote content without leaving a comment. You have to ask yourself how realistic is that that you'd be in agreement with everything someone post? Like I follow someone because I like when they post stuff about historic buildings but when they post stuff like going to the grocery store and leaving random sticky notes of kindness just isn't my cup of tea....and one I am sure may work out in a small town out west but my large grocer probably wouldn't appreciate it. A perfect example would be during election times....do I really want my up vote going to someone who would write a shining article on someone I wouldn't vote for in a election. See how silly that all becomes. Believe me I know how incredible hard it is to get noticed even if you consistently read and up vote others content that you like or that you engage with, unless your in their click the majority basically don't care and even if they aren't in a click you find the time you take exposing yourself on their blogs isn't met with reciprocity. If it wasn't for fifty bucks I got entering a writing contest on Jerry Banfields site I don't think I'd made five bucks in the last one hundred days....and that's the only thing that saved me from having zilch left in the recent price drop which took half my earning away.

Indeed, they can be time-consuming and many times hours a day chatting in discord. Keep trying to find your place here. Contests that are close to the kind of content you product can be a great way to meet people in that area. I’ve always been quite all over the place. Few weeks back I finally decided to just focus on gaming.

Sometimes you just need focus on your strengths-- such as comments. If you enjoy commenting and write a lot of them like the one you just did. I highly recommend you check out if you have not before The Curation and Engagement Leagues. If that looks interesting just ask in the comments there to be added. The second league is what you might be interested in.

Comment engagement can be a great way to meet new people and sometimes get noticed.

I’ve been here for over 300 days and a large chunk of my rewards came from just a couple of blogs and comments. Granted it all adds up but sometimes you just have an amazing week. I’m mostly here for a good time and hey if the price of Steem ever skyrocket a couple of times well than it was a very good time indeed.

I’ve always noticed more times than not here finding a community that fits you and your content will help you more than just tossing money at the bidbots

And in the long term, you will have a community to back you.

Hardest part for me is finding that place.

I just wrote an article on this a bit, it doesn't help now though :/

I often times end up leaving becomes ones I become invested in my time I start noticing just how many people are leeching for the benefits but really don’t give a dam for that community.

Freeloaders, every society has them.

Which leads me back to just focusing on a few places to engage with on Steemit itself, and more or less feeling like a lone wolf again.

It is not really easy to be without a group here (or anywhere). I consider myself a freelancer of sorts as I have always been a bit of a social butterfly who likes many types of flowers so my content reflects that.

Chats are good and the groups might be good but, too many take themselves seriously and only themselves. They become blind to the rest of the community.

One of the worst and most annoying examples of spam I've seen on here, was when I got a notification saying I've been mentioned in a post.

The username didn't look familiar, so I clicked through to the post and couldn't find my mention anywhere. Looking at the comments, there were many people asking why they for a mention notification but can't see their name mentioned. The poster responded saying that they used a "trick".

So I looked at the Steemd history on the post, and what they did was mention a couple of hundred names, and then edit the post, mention another couple of hundred, and repeat a couple of times, before finally editing to remove the mentions.

The sad thing is it looks like that person actually put efforts into their posts. Out of principal I had to flag, but I left her with my feedback.

There are so many little scams people run to try and get people in. I do understand it is difficult but, it isn't going to make it any easier when so many people are acting in such ways. What it will do is create a system of less trust and less willingness to interact.

That's a new one I've haven't come across or seen yet...thanks for the heads up.

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