Flagging: Can the Community Solve The Problem Without Unintended Consequences?

in #steemit7 years ago (edited)

This post is inspired by @denmarkguy’s post on Sunday about the current controversy over flagging on Steemit. He brought up about a site that paid back in the late nineties that I also remembered, Epinions.

I remember Epinions and the controversies that went on there. It was interesting watching it as people tried to shout loud enough to be heard above the rest. Very much part of human nature.

There are those who just roll with the system and just want to get along. There are others who absolutely think they should challenge everything and anything thus creating chaos in their wake. From the chaos we have those who are going to ride to the rescue, as least in their own minds.

Let Me Share A Brief Story

I’m in my fifteenth term as President of a local service organization. We have a building which means we have to be able to pay the overhead on the bricks and mortar as well as looking after the mission of the organization. We struggle financially almost constantly making it difficult to keep focused on the mission side of what we do.

One of our hardworking volunteers, who had recently come on board, had been receiving calls and relaying questions to me for a while. I would respond to the questions and make the decisions I felt were needed and then she would go back to the caller and let them know the outcome. A lot of the calls were about the banquet hall that we have available for rent.

More than once I heard her uncertainty when I’d give her a response. She didn’t question me, I was the President and in her mind, right or wrong, she’d just do what was asked. After she’d been there a while she finally decided to challenge me.

“How come you give the hall away to some and with others you wont budge a penny on the rental?” she asked, “Seems like a pretty poor way to run a business.”

I smiled. Now I understood the uncertainty I heard in her voice at times. She looked on the hall as just a business centre. I saw the hall as an asset that was both business and a tool toward fulfilling our mission statement. I wasn’t making purely business decisions, I was striving toward balance between the two.

I explained that to her in response to her question.


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Balance is not always easy to get. No matter how much I thought I had the rationale figured out, there would be something come along to challenge the thought process and demand a different answer.

I see this constant struggle for balance and fairness when it comes to the flagging issues here on Steemit.

The Balance Struggle

Some where in the middle of all that, some balance has to be found in order to create some semblance of order. In a clearly centralized system, with a clear hierarchy, that order is a challenge to get.

The person(s) charged with creating it has to find balance between what will keep people present and participating and what addresses the known issues. Hopefully the actions taken doesn't create unintended consequences.

It’s tough in a centralized system. It is even tougher in a decentralized system with many different belief structures pulling in different directions. Can the community come together enough to pull mostly together without a central system of command and control

I see the flagging over reward levels as being an unintended consequence of earlier actions.

When I first joined, the acceptable reasons for flagging/downvoting (whatever) was for abuse of the system like plagiarism. The votes of the whales was often needed to knock those miscreants out of gaining reward for their misbehaviour.


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The other users would cheer, well sort of, that the miscreants weren’t able to cheat the system.

Then issues came along with people getting upset over the frequency some topics / users ended up on the Trending page. The voices started that were advocating that the way to stop this was to make it acceptable to flag for perceived excess of rewards. After a time, that option was added to the note that pops up when clicking the flag button.

That was fine for most while it wasn't being used very often or didn't have much of an impact on very many. Then one or more whales started making it routine to use it over rewards.

When Many Feel the Sting, The Community Reacts


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More people started to feel the sting of seeing potential earnings evaporate on the strength of a single vote. It wasn't just someone regularly making good returns or regularly on the Trending page, it was people who most of the time made very little on a post and suddenly had a post getting a good potential payout.

I know the excitement of seeing a post start to take off and watching it’s progress. I can understand the sense of being crushed when a substantial part of those potential earnings disappear because a whale has determined you may make more than he is happy with.

The Unintended Consequence Comes Full Circle


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That’s the unintended consequence created by those who were upset over the frequency that some ended up on the Trending page. The consequence made it acceptable for a whale, or a few, to decide they know best about what people are interested in and, since they can, they start executing that opinion.

And it is opinion, because value is subjective. They might not find a subject of interest, or think others are interested but, anyone who does a bit of research about niches on the web finds that some of the oddest topics can create a thriving community of interest.

So, Is There A Solution?


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There are always solutions, but before they can be reached there are three questions that need to be answered.

. Does the community have a clear way to communicate the problem for discussion?
. Will the community engage in thoughtful and respectful discussion toward reaching a solution?
. Is the community willing to work toward and honour an agreed upon solution?

If the above can be answered yes, then the forum needs to be created to come with a solution or process to reach justice.

Justice Is Clearly a Factor


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As mentioned earlier, the flag has value for the community in that it and the whales carry out the task of shutting down known plagiarists and abusers of the platform.

While I’ve seen calls for the power of the whales to be able to reduce a person’s income and reputation to be removed. They do carry out a valued task.

They need to be able to protect the platform from clear abuses the community agrees should not be allowed. So, taking their power away is not a just solution.

Creating a community where the mightiest and the weakest find mutual respect and balance is how justice will be reached.

Community is messy. When people of goodwill and common cause come together, solutions can be found and unintended consequences dealt with by recognising no one system is going to work all the time. We’ll need to be prepared to re-evaluate and adjust as we go.

@sirlunchthehost posted a proposal for what might be the beginning of a way to consider problems that provides all members a way to be heard and considered in a community driven way. It may still have some rough edges but it seems to be a better idea than drawing up sides and going to war that destroys.

Let’s build together.



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If there is a forum/group that discusses this with civility and reason might I propose that it be done on the blockchain. Something this important should be public record.

Resteemed.

i agree... then down the road it can be referred back to. Is there a forum / group that is on the blockchain for this to happen? My understanding is that at this time, all the chat groups are off the blockchain.

No... We would likely need to do it through deciding on some rules we can follow and creating chained posts.

We played around with this technique trying to make a game based upon writing in the past.

It's not ideal, but it'd still be open and logged. Yes we could still have some uncivil discussion pop in, but we can try to reason and if that fails, move on.

I suspect it'd be mostly productive...

Here was the rules I made for our experimental game...
https://steemit.com/thegame/@dwinblood/alpha-game-original-rules-template

I don't propose using that for this as it is overkill and not necessarily suited for our purposes. Yet it does provide some hints at what we could do HERE if we currently lack forums.

That project ended up producing this...
https://steemit.com/alphagame/@dwinblood/alpha-game-turns-0-2-where-the-steemit-spontaneous-community-story-has-gone-so-far-we-hope-you-enjoy

Then died.

I have read @winstonwolfe's and have @picokernel's open to be read when I can get to it.

Cool 🙂 Would be interesting for you guys to sit down and chat, perhaps also with @sirlunchthehost

I think a lot of people need to sit down and chat on both sides of the current fences and those caught between them.

thank you @seablue .. occasionally I can be some what sensible :)

100% up vote. Thanks for giving me the shout out, a lot of good points here. Most people need to take the time to stop,think,then act instead of Stop,Act.

thank you @sirlunchthehost .. we can't build a lasting community without some real thought and common cause between us

We definitly need a community where " the mightiest and the weakest can find mutual respect and balance " as you said !! I would also like to add a quote that I just read from KrNel s awesome post https://steemit.com/steemit/@krnel/community-decisions-to-establish-rules-vs-it-s-in-the-code-law-and-the-battle-for-decentralization
HERES A SMALL SAYING !! : need to totally agree also in what you said about the downvoteing ! : That its Irrational ! Hypocritical ! And Inconsistant !! You have my full support !!! Upvoted and resteemed !! 👍😉

Thank you @karenmckersie for your comment. I know @krnel is passionate on this subject and from the number of posts that have been written on it, I would say it certainly has gained the attention of some of the community.

While I certainly understand his passion, it's maybe time to dial back the inflammatory terms like "irrational, hypocritical and inconsistent" if all stakeholders are going to be able to come together and have some civil discourse.

I know I sometimes get passionate on a subject and express myself strongly, but it is usually in hindsight that I realize my passion may have reduced the opportunity to solve the problem.

If they would just solve the problem once and for all , their would be no need for for people to get upset or be overly passionate about anything ! Its only because this been going on for so long that people includeing myself are starting to speak out more about it !! Thanks or replying back to me !😉👍

Thanks both for the plug, and for the link back here.

Another aspect to this debate-- and to hopefully find equitable resolution-- is something I briefly alluded to in my post... namely, the invitation to all parties to take a few quiet moments to examine (in all seriousness) the question of "What does Steemit really MEAN to me? And what do I hope it will BECOME?"

I relate to your local organization story... I spent some years as president of the homeowner's association in the housing community where we used to live. The beginning of problem solving nearly always started with "Let's make sure everyone is actually thinking up solutions to the SAME problem" before discussions were opened... hereunder, identifiying goals and expectations, in service of being able to wrap appropriate context around each suggestion.

Here on Steemit, that would be establishing some kind of baseline of understanding that developers, blockchainiacs and bloggers (for example) probably bring very different perceptions of "What Steemit Is" to the table.

I get the sense that the various elements which make up STEEM and Steemit Inc tend to feel somewhat isolated from the others. When that happens there tends to be a sense of 'them' and 'us' develop.

I think we all need to be open to learning the role of all the various elements of the platform. It's through knowledge that we learn respect for each other.

I was away for a week and I missed those events. That is a nice summary. Thanks!

It looks like there is a new flagging reason around.

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