The Bot Problem

in #steemit7 years ago

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Many of my fellow Steemians have weighed in on this issue. You can check out a few peoples takes here, here, and here.

I've also had some pretty long conversations in comment threads about this. Since then my position on bots has changed. I originally didn't see all the problems with bots so I wasn't all that opposed to them. I think the reason for this was that I hadn't witnessed the sort of abuse that REALLY shines a spotlight on the worst case scenario use cases of bots.

For the record, my idea of the worst use of bots is someone promoting a post or posts with little or no value to the top of trending for days at a time. I think there are several really bad problems with this.

  • It pushes down content that is potentially actually good.

Basically making the Trending page ineffective at fulfilling it's purpose.

  • It makes Steemit look "cheap" to any new users.

If Steemit were a magazine, the Trending page would be the cover. If the cover looks shitty, you're probably going to assume the content is shitty as well.

  • It drains the reward pool for the wrong reasons.

This is more of a Macro problem IMO but it's still there. We would need to see data and analytics to really grasp how big of an issue this is.

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You made it through a lot of words, here's some of the "Making of" for the art above!

but...

There is an opposite end to this issue. If you're a new user of Steemit, you've no doubt felt the frustrations of getting started. It can feel like you're tossing your post into a raging river of posts where you've got minutes to get some visibility before it drowns in the endless torrent that is the New section.

So some people are doing really creative things to help with this problem. There's @minnowsupport that does curation as well as operating a free bot that will shoot you an upvote if you request it in their discord channel.

There are a fair amount of resteem channels especially in #art like @fineartnow, @artzone, @steemartists, etc. I think these are all great attempts to address this problem, but these guys can't be everywhere at the same time and as the user base grows on Steemit, this problem is only going to get worse.

Context before solutions

  • Bots aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

When you look into how a lot of different bots work, I don't think banning them from Steemit is practical, or potentially even possible.

  • Bots are a tool.

Tools aren't good or bad. Tools can be used to build or to destroy. The person or people using the tools are the ones we have to judge, not the tools themselves.

  • The built in promotional system of Steemit isn't that effective, or at least not as effective as bots.

Imagine if youtube had a Commercials channel, that was ONLY composed of ads. Would you ever look at it? No, I didn't think so. So it's not exactly the same thing because people on Steemit aren't exactly trying to sell you something, but for all practical purposes we are. We're all trying to "sell" our content, but I don't think that's how most people imagine it. But I think the psychological perception of the Promoted section does feel like you're selling something and I think that's a put off.

  • Bots work.

I've experimented with bots and found them easy to use and after not much experimentation I can get predictable results with them. By using Steambottracker you can get a good and easy to understand picture of what you're going to get for your money. In the worst case scenario I still about broke even in ROI, but I ALWAYS gained views and followers, which was the goal in the first place.

Thoughts on solutions

To be clear I think it's a problem that these are the options in front of us as users, but this is the reality. We can either adapt or quit. Of course there is the chance that the people developing Steemit will fix this for us, but I plan to still use Steemit in the meantime.

I really like this platform, problems and all and I want to see it succeed. I want a future where I can smugly tell my friends that are just getting on Steemit, that I was there before it was cool :p

So in terms of platform solutions, I think what they should do is copy what other social networks have done and

  • Get rid of the promoted tab and put promoted posts in with the other posts, but add an icon that lets you know that it's a promoted post. If possible it would be great if we could even keep the bid bots so you have options as to how you'd like to promote your post, but even if you use bid bots, your post still shows up as promoted.
  • In addition to that, there needs to be a button next to individual posts that lets you hide that post from your feed forever, so basically if you're promoting a post you've got your shot, but if your content is shit, everyone is just going to get rid of it.

This way we can still address the problem that every new user is going to have, which is getting initial traction. So if they want to pay, they can promote their post, and if it's good content, they'd have their shot at the masses, but we'd be easily able to get rid of the spam, and the Trending page hogs that pay to stay there for days at a time in all the top spots.

This way, that method of abusing bots, should become unprofitable. Especially if we combine that with coordinated downvoting for obvious abusers, but honestly I don't even think that would be necessary once it became obvious that that tactic doesn't work anymore.

But in the meantime, because it's no telling when or IF Steemit plans to address these issues, I think, if you have something that you really want people to see, that you've really put a lot of love and work into, use bots responsibly. Also for the whales and dolphins out there with a powerful upvote, I'd say not to shun someone just because they're using bots. People are going to use bots, I think it's better if people with legitimately good content use them vs people with crap content and you can help the cream rise to the top by supporting those users so they rise above the spammers and scammers.

I've read the comments of some users along the lines of "New users just wanted to get rich quick without putting in the work". I don't think that's the case, I think it's more accurate to say new users, and well anyone doesn't want to do WASTED work. If you put a lot of work into something and no one even sees it, then it's a waste. If people saw it, didn't like it, and passed that would be one thing, but when you can see a post gets less than 10 views, that means it didn't get a chance to be accepted or rejected.

So in closing, it would be great if some platform level solutions were introduced to address these issues, but in the meantime or in case that's not in the roadmap, we have to learn to coexist with our robot overlords.

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I´ve tried using bots with mixed results, and my conclusion is that is more effective to actively interact with other users, participate in the contest and activities that many users organize, and slowy build your audience. Visibility is a problem, but quality is a bigger one. It´s hard to make good content an very easy to make low quality content that adds very little to the comunity. I myself know that I am in the lower end but my plan is to keep interacting, try to step up the quality and not rely on the use of bots. I cannot promise not using them at all, because the profit you can get from them is real, but they´re not an integral part of my growth strategy. Let´s see what happens, we´ve exciting times ahead!

I agree with you. I think if bots are as you put it "...an integral part of your growth strategy" you're doing it wrong IMHO. I think they're good for visibility. I almost wish that was ALL they were good for. The fact that they can be profitable in and of themselves...well it's unrealistic to think people aren't going to exploit them.

Really good post, @midlet ! It is a tricky situation... I think since Steemit is still on beta, there's still a lot that can be improved. But to be honest, when I opened Steemit's trending page and see its contents, it is not a very respectable collection, sometimes. Compared to Medium.com, for example, there are really valuable articles that mainstream audience can read or be referred to, over there. But Steemit is mired with a lot of users who are creating contents that aren't yet at that level.

I wish the platform succeeds, I really do. But there's branding and reputation that will need to be really curated well before Steemit can get anywhere proper, I think.

Anyway, great article <3

upvotes

Yes, I think you're right @veryspider, and I think you're doing a great job of leading the charge on that! :)

but add an icon that lets you know that it's a promoted post.

I like that idea a lot. It's been something I've been throwing around here and there for quite awhile now. Then, with the simple push of a button we should be able to hide or show promoted posts as well.

I'd like to be able to scroll through the feeds and drop a large vote(I miss when the value was high and my vote was worth $10) on a minnow with the hopes someone else would then notice, then people start piling on.

Awhile back, people didn't like the piling on effect(it used to exist) but that was because it was happening to the same in crowd far too often. If it's done right though, that's how we get good quality trending posts day in and day out. Just finding those diamonds in the rough. That's so hard to do these days and someone always comes along and bumps them down with a paid for vote or two. So frustrating... but I won't go on another rant! LOL!

Weeeeeell I think it would need to be done per individual post because if there was a global button to turn them all off, it would be a similar problem as the current Promoted page. Promoting a post would add very little additional value.

I think the key here it trying to tread the line of making it valuable for a legit user, but not valuable for spammers, or as @javicuesta mentioned someone trying to use it as a business plan to milk the system. Thanks for stopping by! I knew you wouldn't be able to resist this one ;p

The problem is by who or how is determined a "legit user". There should be some trusted curators that allow some user to get to the trending page, somehow like it´s happening in the MSP, that you can be banned if your content doesn´t meet the rules or guidelines aproved by the mayority but that´s a hell of a job that´s not likely to be done.

The posibility of filtering content is as easier solution that migth work. Making the job easy to the people that want to curate quality content. I don´t know if Smart Media Tokens will have some effect on this since I don´t really know the posibities that they open, but I think (I trust) the platform will continue to develop and will find a way. :)

Congratulations! This post has been upvoted from the communal account, @minnowsupport, by midlet from the Minnow Support Project. It's a witness project run by aggroed, ausbitbank, teamsteem, theprophet0, someguy123, neoxian, followbtcnews, and netuoso. The goal is to help Steemit grow by supporting Minnows. Please find us at the Peace, Abundance, and Liberty Network (PALnet) Discord Channel. It's a completely public and open space to all members of the Steemit community who voluntarily choose to be there.

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I am curious how you made the determination that the votes you bought lead to views and follows. Small votes (votes not enough to land on the trending page of a tag) in my experience do not add any views at all. You are more than likely picking up the views and follows organically as a quality poster and commenter and just conflating that with the effect of buying votes. The biggest issue that I see with buying votes is that if you zoom far enough out to the macro level, any "gains" realized by individual vote buyers are dwarfed by the gains realized by the largest whales on the platform who rent their SP to the vote selling services. Buying votes funnels money up to the very top of the pyramid. Steem already has a terrible wealth distribution with a very worrisome amount held by a small handful of accounts and the rise of vote selling in the past few months is increasing that wealth disparity at an increasing rate. This is actually a very serious problem for any economy and for a cryptocurrency seeking investors it is a HUGE problem. That the largest stakeholders of STEEM, by and large, are taking the short term profit at expense of long term health of the platform should be ringing loud alarm bells. This is the potential death knell of STEEM.

You could be right @carlgnash. I think even without landing on trending, even just spending not very much on bots you can still land on Hot for a while. Which makes a difference. I made this connection because even though I experimented with bots on a few posts, the vast majority of my posts don't have any paid upvotes and I can see the view number on each one. Some of my older ones would only have between 10-20 views, which were probably coming from the few followers I had.

I could also see how many new followers I was getting. Now as you said, they COULD have been organic, but yea, I think it's about equally likely I picked those guys up from the small bump in exposure.

But yea, at this point I can see the bots are a losing strat, they're like a desert mirage. In the end, the best plan forward is exactly what some Steemit OG's told me from the jump: Post good stuff, engage people, be patient.

Also I totally agree with you about the macro problem with bots. I'm a bit torn on how big a problem its going to be in the future though, because technically it has an easy fix. They can just ban bot upvotes. I think from a business perspective Steem is killing it compared to other blockchain platforms and their focus is probably on growth of all the Steem blockchain projects as a whole right now vs trying to perfect Steemit. Even with the problems, there are thousands of new users daily, and people are using and enjoying the platform. Of course there is a lot they can improve, but it's doing quite well now problems and all which I think is promising for the future of Steemit.

in all honesty SMTs probably make it a moot point. But it wouldn't be as simple as banning upvote botes - the only way to do that would be to roll back the last hardfork and eliminate delegations and that ain't happening. BTW I just realized I failed to upvote this post before commenting, I wasn't trying to be a douchebag LOL just rectified that with an upvote. Love the original upvote bot art.

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