Loss Aversion on SteemitsteemCreated with Sketch.

in #steemit7 years ago (edited)

A Major Source of Negativity on Steemit

How does it feel when after making a new post, you see the payout rise to $50 or $500? I know that feeling, and it's pretty great. But after hitting that high, the payout may drop. Perhaps it only drops a little, from $500 to $450, but weirdly that drop hurts more than the initial gain felt good. This post will explain loss aversion and propose a solution to minimize its impact on Steemit.

Rationally Irrational

Wikipedia describes Loss Aversion as follows:

In economics and decision theory, loss aversion refers to people's tendency to prefer avoiding losses to acquiring equivalent gains: it's better to not lose $5 than to find $5. Some studies have suggested that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains.[1] Loss aversion was first demonstrated by Amos Tversky and Daniel Kahneman.[2]

Twice as powerful! We really dislike losses. This phenomenon does not just apply to humans, it has also been seen among other primates.

Despite being irrational in many contexts, it is likely that loss aversion is evolutionarily beneficial. In our evolutionary past, there would have been an assymetry between losses and gains. It may also lead us to prefer our peers who come through on their promises, rather than overpromise and underreward. Those peers may have been more honest and reliable.

How Loss Aversion Affects Steemit

The basic idea of Steem post payouts is like a proposal going through a committee approval process. The author makes a proposal, submits it to their stakeholder peers, and depending on the final outcome, they get a payout in the end. However unlike most similar systems, Steem is totally transparent, and it needs to be. When the proposal gains support from an influential stakeholder (whale), the author sees that in the form of a rising 'potential payout'. Similarly when another stakeholder opposes the proposal, they see and feel that immediately as loss. The cost of transparency in the Steem system is that every trending author is subject to an emotional rollercoaster as their proposal visibly gains support (upvotes) and opposition (downvotes). There are also other elements which add to the volatility of this rollercoaster such as the votes occurring on other proposals and the inherent volatility of the Steem price.

Example of the Emotional Impact of Loss Aversion

Popular and prolific Steemian @karenmckersie was on the verge of quitting after receiving a downvote from one of our major stakeholders. The following is a rough graph of what the payout estimate may have looked like for the post in question. It only shows accumulated rshares squared over time, it's not the exact payout estimate.

The first thing that should stand out with this graph is how incredibly volatile it is, despite only accounting for the volatility in terms of votes for this post only, it doesn't account for the other two sources of volatility. And while the reward itself was a rollercoaster, it still doesn't reflect the emotional experience for the author @karenmckersie, when we account for the fact the experience of loss has twice the emotional impact of the experience of gain. Here is my approximation of the "emotional chart" by manually adjusting the impact of downvotes.

It's a wash! Due to loss aversion, as far as her experience went, she would have been better off not making the post.

Don't Blame The Stakeholder

After this incident, many people were upset and angry with the stakeholder who applied a large downvote. However as a stakeholder, they have the right to have their say in how the rewards are distributed. This is a fundamental premise of Steem as a stakeholder governance project. Many are also inclined to blame the facility to downvote at all, but an upvote only system is not viable. Stakeholders must be allowed to reign in over-allocation of rewards.

Yet still, downvotes are clearly a harsh punitive measure, with a disproportionate impact as shown above. In all areas of life, it is better to prevent harm than to try to fix it retroactively. Let's imagine a world where the downvote didn't happen, but we still had the same outcome from the reward pool.

What is this fantasy land? I would suggest that the above outcome is both better in practice, and viable to achieve on Steemit. It is better for the author, who has a much better emotional experience in the above scenario. It is better for the stakeholder who never had to come in with a downvote in the first place. And finally it is better for the other stakeholder in this story, who has been entirely left out of the discussion so far. The largest vote was the one which brought the post up to almost $54 in the first place. Do we even know that was their intention?

Upvotes are Not Good For Determining Consensus on Payout

Here I will repeat a suggestion from a previous post:

The purpose of the voting process is to determine how much should be paid out for a post. We want to reward people who contribute to the network appropriately, within the limits that the scarcity of Steem allow.

How Much Is This Post Worth?

Options: Good. Bad.

One of the main reasons we argue over payouts is because the system isn't actually working to achieve the purpose described above. Even ignoring the connotations of the flag symbol ("your post is abusive"), instead of feeding the system with information on what we feel a post should be paid, we can only say "I think this post is worth more" and "I think this post is worth less". There are big problems with this. Worth more than what? The voter may mean more than the amount at the time of the vote. If the payout approaches a certain high or low amount, the vote may no longer accurately reflect what the voter wants.

In practice it seems like an up vote and down vote mostly say, and are interpreted as "This post is good" and "This post is bad" or as above "This post is abusive". Yet those don't even answer the question which the vote is asking, and very frequently they are also not what the voter had in mind. Sometimes the amounts that are paid out may not reflect the intentions of any of the voters.

Solution: Payout Recommendations

A large stakeholder upvoted @karenmckersie's post and the payout estimate went close to $54. I cannot say that is the payout that the stakeholder considered appropriate, only they can. The only information given to the Steem Network was an upvote along with a weight, but that doesn't say very much. If stakeholders include a payout recommendation, we can prevent the need to reign payouts in, because in many cases they may not become excessive in the first place. The system has more information available to it to make better payout decisions earlier.

We already use Median in Steem Because it is a Robust Statistic

The price of Steem Backed Dollars is determined by the median of the price feed over the last week. This reduces the volatility of the peg, while preventing outliers from having adverse impact. These are the same objectives we should have with payout estimates! Volatility is the source of the pain of loss aversion. Excess is what we are trying to police with downvotes. While there will still always be scope for deliberate abuse, preventing the need to police unintentional excess may reduce most of the problem.

As suggested in my previous post, every vote should include a payout recommendation. For the sake of continuation, and simple user experience for new users, defaults can be applied for normal users such as $1,000,000 for a standard minnow upvote. Larger stakeholders should have access to an interface which doesn't just ask them if they like a post, but how much it should be paid.

The final payout can be determined as it is today, but with the additional caveat that the payout will not exceed the median payout recommendation. For the sake of calculating the median, we count every r-share applied, not 1-vote per user. This is straightforward enough to calculate and I don't see it having a serious impact on performance.

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Upvoted for discussion.

I agree that this is a problem right now, and there are many options for fixing it. Some options are at a blockchain level, and others are at an interface level.

I think the next hardfork will do some things to help this issue:

  • More linear payout curve.

I hate to throw out numbers without doing the math, but @karenmckersie's post may have had a potential payout of $35 instead of $50 under this new curve. The whale's downvote may have only brought it down from $35 to $28 instead of $50 to $25. If these numbers are anywhere close to correct, she would have experienced a much less severe drop in potential payout.

  • Extending the payout window to one week.

I don't think this will effect payout variances for downvotes, but it will smooth out other variances. Right now, it's not uncommon for the payout of your post to drop by 10-20% because other posts were highly upvoted. When the payout period is changed to a week, these payout swings will still exist, but I think they'll be >5%.

A well thought-out post @demotruk
I recently had a $100 post - my first in a fairly long time and after reading all that happened to Karen, I kept a side-eye on the reward value. It's not that I cannot accept a downvote that might have halved it but had I gotten a downvote I would want a better reason than the reward pool - which constantly fluctuates and, as far as I understand, resets every day. As for my post, I was very happy to see that it maintained its value but I believe the more important numbers are the vote to comment ratio and perhaps that was a large reason it kept its "value."

I understand the mentality behind the downvote but I believe it was a skewed viewpoint where the action may be appropriate IF everyone posted every day and IF only the same people reached the trending page every day - which is not the case.

Anyway - loss aversion is a very real thing and detrimental to the emotional health. I like the idea of seeing a final number instead of the fluctuations. If I really wanted to see the volatility, then perhaps someone could create an app to track trends for specific posts -- or simply check Steemd.

... perhaps someone could create an app to track trends for specific posts ...

@furion is there an app for this already? and @demotruk, how did you makes your graphs for this post?

I just grabbed the votes from steemd.com and threw them into Excel.

I definitly agee with you , I would also like to see a final number , or if were seeing fluctuations we understand the end result is the final payout ! I like this idea, its much better then the way it is now !😉👍

Without a doubt, a very complex issue.

My immediate thought is that posts are ultimately tied to an open-market currency (Steem) which changes price all the time... so there's also a functional limit to protecting people from downside exposure.

I do agree that upvotes as a measure is somewhat problematic... especially given all the bots. Sometimes spikes in rewards don't make real world sense because a bot upvoted something... but the bot didn't actually READ the content and say to itself "Wow, this is GREAT content!"

In principle, I like the little boxes with "how much to reward;" but how about instead simply asking "How did you LIKE this article?" with boxes being from a low of "1" to a high of "10," where the score becomes the relative weight of your upvote... it's more obvious than the current "slider" when we vote. And somehow-- built into the overall metric-- a bot vote carries a separate "seen it" weight (because that's all bots really do) vs. a "read it and manually liked it" vote.

Just thinking out loud here.

I don't mind market ups and downs reducing payouts but downvoting from anyone that reduces payout because they think the post isn't deserving is wrong. It demoralizes content creators and shuts people like me up because I often question consensus, now I feel speaking out against authority here is going to impact my payout and I'm going try and stay with what is agreed on as PC material. People upvoted on a post and downvoting takes away upvoters powers and reduces curation payouts and it doesn't cost the down voter anything.

This is why FB does not have dislikes, Because people can ruin someone for the hell it, a disagreement of view or a grudge. You could have 400 upvotes and a whale totally reduces the rights of the up-voters. Or a weighted stakeholder disagrees with an ideology or a trend that is important to a group of people can be disapeared by one downvote. So basically whales or stakeholders are the moderators of payout, rather than the upvote judging someone's talent, quality of content, or trend. A downvote is highly subjective just like an upvote, but down vote from a weighted stake holder reduces the payout so much, this does not sound like a free market, one person could have a bad day and ruin a person or group of people's view of Steemit.

Decouple downvote from payout.

Great post! Nice way to explore the psychological impact of this issue.

Data must be meaningful, which is to say, contextualized. I think that the post value representation on steemit.com is pretty wrong and this post just shows another reason for it. @robrigo and I have both raised the issue before (hope you don't mind being mentioned) and I'm glad for your perspective on this too.

The dollar value on a post before payout is problematic. It can seriously mislead, as you have pointed out here, with negative psychological effects that can disable a user. Beside the personal effect, it is actually based on incorrect contextualization in my opinion. Because of incomplete knowledge of the workings of the system, or pain disagreement with down votes, seeing the value go down feels like being stolen from. And it is stealing, but only from the potential reward. The further confounding factor of changes to the reward pool from voting which is completely independent of the post does not help either.

Here's a different suggestion. Have you seen the Mashable velocity graph? It describes how articles are trending on social media. Here's an example:

and up close

This one has a shape that's not a million miles from Karen's. It gives an idea of what is happening to the value, but does not tantalize and perhaps mislead the author with a dollar amount. It just shows what we are interested in, what is the vote volume over time? Vote volume here means total votes weighted as normal (i.e. by voting power and voters SP).

I would suggest that the chart should not corrected for daily reward pool, etc., and shows what is important here, cumulative votes over time, as this is just a fact at payout time. Only at payout should the dollar amount be shown.

Also note that it just shows the trend, as there are no axis or numbers. This is important to avoid loss aversion.

Also also note that the coloring is left to right, implying something important about the time. This also directly applies to payout on Steemit, we could "arrive" at a nice color of blue perhaps at payout time.

With HardFork17 extending and unifying the payout period to 7 days this might be more important than ever.

There is another issue with showing dollar amounts on posts. I came to steemit about 5 months ago and its really demoralising when you first start and you see older posts with thousands of dollars then after putting your heart and soul into writing a masterpiece you only gets a few cents.

That must be awful for morale! I heard they were easily in the thousands at that time? 😭

But are you suggesting rewards should be only be shown in STEEM? That might be interesting. However I recognize that the dollar amount is kind of the carrot on the end of the stick for new people. They look at it, especially the trending page, and say "Wow! These posts are earning $100!" or some such. That would be a lot less relatable, especially for non-crypto types (exactly who we want to attract I assume) if it were 800 STEEM or similar. You buy coffee with dollars, Big Macs, fill up your car with gas, buy the car. What can you do with STEEM?

It's going to be a compromise. It sure is a compromise now, but I think it can be improved. Removing the value completely seems too extreme, as some have suggested. I think the main thing to combat is misrepresenting the data before payout, as I've outlined. However this too would mean no dollar signs on the trending page.

So perhaps the landing page for signed out users should be "top posts this week" which are after payout. It would be simple to do and would put the focus on the payout instead of the race to see the dollars move up, and the sinking feeling when they go down. Again, maybe they want it this way, maybe it's part of what they hope makes Steemit addicting and moresome.

I think that the dollar amounts are a great selling point for the platform but the graphs you showed in your comment got me thinking that some other metric besides money would also be useful to show next to it.

At the moment we have votes and views but they don't mean much to new users. One post gets 10 votes and earns 10 dollars, another post gets 200 votes and earns 1 dollar. One post has 100 votes but just 10 views. ???? I know why this is happening but for new users this is very confusing

The point is there doesn't seem to be any consistency in the simple metrics that are at our disposal and the payout that a post gets. This is another manifestation of what @demotruk is talking about, in my opinion, in that presented to the user is a dollar amount that varies during the payout period. The key metric that is presented and what is only natural to be drawn to is how much your going to get.

A better metric or graphical representation that does not change over time or change significantly which could be used by all users to help them compare how their work is being received and also to reduce the loss aversion issue described by @demotruk.

Some might say that comments and engagement would represent this and what I am asking for is already there but there is little doubt that the dollar amount is what many are drawn to and is quite striking.

What may be a solution to compare how work is being received is two dollar values on old posts, what was paid on the post originally and what that post would get today.

The key metric that is presented and what is only natural to be drawn to is how much your going to get.

Succinctly put. This is key.

For new users a little mini graph beside it would give them the information, without the need for explanation as it can be inferred, that the value can be expected to go up, but also down, and that it's a process which as of HF17 will last a week.

Keep pushing it, the Steemit.com guys require a good bit of discussion in posts before they consider ideas.

I would like steem do away with downvotes and make all votes count the same.

Make the playing field level. Take away the power from the whales. Whales should only be allowed to have a say in what happens, as they are large share holders, they should not be allowed to make or break a post.

Then and only then, can Steemit really grow and rival the likes of Facebook. It has to be seen as fair and honest, right now, it is certainly not that.

This is all very subjective and so many variables are involved including people/whales with different taste. Many of the things that go viral are just silly and a waste of time. Something may appeal to a certain generation and just take off with that group.

The best way to ensure steady steem or steem power is just to mine it or buy it, that way you are not dependent on the system. I just mine ethereum and have it converted to steem or steem power automatically. More people need to support the coin along with creating content.

Good point but... Was this commented on the wrong post? I can't find the relevance

I read your whole article and you had quite a few points about payout recommendations. The article seemed to suggest how to make payout more fair with payout recommendations. Not sure if that is meant to help with the feeling of loss or what. Its just hard for me to understand what you are actually getting at, other than change the payout system so everyone can feel less loss.

Not my post

Sorry my mistake

That is exactly what it is about, yes. The feeling of loss is far more impactful than the feeling of gain. For that reason we should try to minimize the feeling of loss in the user experience. The purpose is not related to fairness, merely an improved user experience, as well as more accurately reflecting the views of Stakeholders in the first place (upvotes and downvotes don't really answer the question of how much something should be paid).

I see, well if you are just concerned about the user feeling loss then maybe only display the payout when its finalized. I personally think the feeling of loss is an integral component of the experience. Think about gambling and how much loss is involved with that, all those lows make the highs feel even better.

This would only be possible on some user interfaces. Curators need to be able to see the rewards of a post in order to decide whether the rewards are too high or too low. Since we all become stake holders we all become curators, and even as a minnow - who doesn't really have much power to curate - they can still check the blockchain or other user interfaces to see their pending rewards.

Great post ! Im in full agreement , its a much better solution then what we currently have , as long as the pool is fairly distibuted to all steemians acordingly . 👍😉

Being an amateur poker player I can confirm loss aversion : ) People do remember losing hands way more than winning hands. That's how you feel unlucky even when stats say the opposite.

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